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Religion, Politics and World Events They make great dinner conversation, don't you think? plus Political Film

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Old 12-13-16, 05:47 PM   #126
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Re: What changes are needed in the Democratic Party?

Quote:
Originally Posted by WCChiCubsFan View Post
It doesn't need to nominate a pro-life candidate.

Strangely I recall that more people voted Democratic this past election cycle then voted Republican.
First of all, you're ignoring that the electoral system is based upon winning states, not overall votes. That's why resources were put into "battleground states" while both candidates ignored states that were either safely in one's camp or considered out of reach.

I read a recent baseball analogy in which the author explained that a World Series strategy of winning four games is vastly different from the strategy that would be employed if the Series were determined by which team scored the most runs instead of overall games.

Secondly, are you suggesting that people voting Democratic would not do so if the party became pro-life, especially if both major parties had similar platforms? Would that issue be a deal-breaker to the point that voters would vote Republican or third-party?

I could see Republicans who voted third party this time voting for Democrats if social platforms changed. Would Democrats do likewise if the reverse happened?



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Old 12-13-16, 07:20 PM   #127
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Re: What changes are needed in the Democratic Party?

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Originally Posted by WCChiCubsFan View Post
It doesn't need to nominate a pro-life candidate.

Strangely I recall that more people voted Democratic this past election cycle then voted Republican.
About 3 million more people voted for Republican House candidates than Democratic candidates.

There were more Democratic than Republican votes for Senate candidates but that can be explained mostly by California which has a new peculiar process where the two highest vote getters in the primary face off in the general election. Both were Democrats. That was more than 12 million Democratic votes to zero for the Republicans, much more than the overall difference between the parties. Also, there were contests in the two biggest blue states (CA and NY) and there wasn't one in the biggest red state, Texas.

I can only guess that state legislative races were dominated by Republicans who control more than 2/3 of the state legislative bodies. They also control about 2/3 of the governorships. Only 12 had elections (the others all have elections in the off-presidential years). Eight states were Democratic and four were Republican. Republicans took three away from Democrats, Democrats took one away from Republicans for a net gain of two for the Republicans.

There is no electoral college for any of these so every one involved candidates going after their state's or district's popular vote.

But we are supposed to think Hillary beating Trump for the popular vote, a game neither was playing, is super significant.

But I do think it is ridiculous to say that Democrats should nominate a "pro-life" candidate. They would be committing political suicide with their base. I think they'd lose a lot more with their base than they'd gain from Republicans or independents.

Actually, I think there are a lot more people who are fiscally conservative and socially liberal than there are who are fiscally liberal and socially conservative. I think it is Republicans who should be loosening up on the social conservatism. Probably not with abortion because it's too much locked in (although personally I would like to see it) but with some other issues (LGBT rights, drug laws etc; things have really shifted on those issues).
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Old 12-13-16, 08:22 PM   #128
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Re: What changes are needed in the Democratic Party?

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But I do think it is ridiculous to say that Democrats should nominate a "pro-life" candidate. They would be committing political suicide with their base. I think they'd lose a lot more with their base than they'd gain from Republicans or independents.

Actually, I think there are a lot more people who are fiscally conservative and socially liberal than there are who are fiscally liberal and socially conservative. I think it is Republicans who should be loosening up on the social conservatism. Probably not with abortion because it's too much locked in (although personally I would like to see it) but with some other issues (LGBT rights, drug laws etc; things have really shifted on those issues).
ITA with this. And yes, while the whole of the GOP going fully pro-choice will never work, it would be interesting to see just how far a candidate willing to make some compromises on abortion (limits at 20-24 weeks?) would do nationally. They seem to do just fine in smaller local elections.
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Old 12-13-16, 08:39 PM   #129
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Re: What changes are needed in the Democratic Party?

Agree with movielib there too.
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Old 12-14-16, 09:41 AM   #130
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Re: What changes are needed in the Democratic Party?

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Originally Posted by WCChiCubsFan View Post
Strangely I recall that more people voted Democratic this past election cycle then voted Republican.
That is the 2nd dumbest thing I have ever read on this forum and that says a lot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by creekdipper View Post
First of all, you're ignoring that the electoral system is based upon winning states, not overall votes. That's why resources were put into "battleground states" while both candidates ignored states that were either safely in one's camp or considered out of reach.

I read a recent baseball analogy in which the author explained that a World Series strategy of winning four games is vastly different from the strategy that would be employed if the Series were determined by which team scored the most runs instead of overall games.
Donna Brazile (the DNC) spent millions in Chicago and New Orleans to win the popular vote instead of the election.

link

See below - Donna Brazile must be a Russian spy!

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Old 12-14-16, 09:45 AM   #131
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Re: What changes are needed in the Democratic Party?

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Originally Posted by movielib View Post

But I do think it is ridiculous to say that Democrats should nominate a "pro-life" candidate. They would be committing political suicide with their base. I think they'd lose a lot more with their base than they'd gain from Republicans or independents.

Actually, I think there are a lot more people who are fiscally conservative and socially liberal than there are who are fiscally liberal and socially conservative. I think it is Republicans who should be loosening up on the social conservatism. Probably not with abortion because it's too much locked in (although personally I would like to see it) but with some other issues (LGBT rights, drug laws etc; things have really shifted on those issues).
Democrats have put themselves in a corner when it comes to Abortion and so have Conservatives, but if you look at weighing politics on how it effects perceptions...it's much more easier to say you're more lenient than more punitive. In this case, Conservatives make out just a little better here.

For example, if Conservatives were much more lenient on abortion...it would get a more favorable reaction from both parties than if Democrats suddenly moved the needle just a tad further and said certain abortions would now be illegal which previously were not under their political history.

And I agree, Conservatives need to chill out when it comes to social conservatism. This is one of the reasons why Trump got the votes from non-Conservatives in key states. Pence hurt him in this area, and Trump would have received a much bigger lead...but with Pence...it made Trump look more Conservative (this was obviously weighed back and forth for a while and getting more Conservatives on board was the major goal--I suppose it worked to some degree, but from looking at how close Trump won...I'm not so sure).
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Old 12-14-16, 09:51 AM   #132
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Re: What changes are needed in the Democratic Party?

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Donna Brazile (the DNC) spent millions in Chicago and New Orleans to win the popular vote instead of the election.
From the link you posted, I had to mention this. One of the best comments I've read about Democrats and they really need to look at this:

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/1...n-trump-232547

Quote:
“They believed they were more experienced, which they were. They believed they were smarter, which they weren’t,” said Donnie Fowler, who was consulting for the Democratic National Committee during the final months of the campaign. “They believed they had better information, which they didn’t.”
Experience does not mean intelligence. And often, more experience just means you're more biased and unwilling to get the job done efficiently (or getting it done, period). Employers look at their new employees this way, too: taking a chance on less-experienced but more open-minded and high energy candidates vs. an experienced candidate who's been in the system for decades, bringing a lot of jaded views and opinions along with them (is that healthy for those they work around?).

----

A lot of great information in that link. Here's another. Having this notion that "everyone knows who Politician X is" and that physical signs and literature are not necessary. This is Michigan. Not Silicon Valley.

Quote:
Michigan operatives relay stories like one about an older woman in Flint who showed up at a Clinton campaign office, asking for a lawn sign and offering to canvass, being told these were not “scientifically” significant ways of increasing the vote, and leaving, never to return. A crew of building trade workers showed up at another office looking to canvass, but, confused after being told there was no literature to hand out like in most campaigns, also left and never looked back.
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Old 12-14-16, 02:59 PM   #133
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Re: What changes are needed in the Democratic Party?

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That is the 2nd dumbest thing I have ever read on this forum and that says a lot.
You must not read your own posts.
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Old 12-14-16, 06:43 PM   #134
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Re: What changes are needed in the Democratic Party?

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Originally Posted by mspmms View Post
That is the 2nd dumbest thing I have ever read on this forum and that says a lot.
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You must not read your own posts.
Apparently you don't.
It was assumed that one of mine was the 1st ask WCChiCubsFan
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Old 12-15-16, 07:33 PM   #135
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Re: What changes are needed in the Democratic Party?

Edward-Isaac Dovere at Politico:

How Hillary lost Michigan — and blew the election:

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/1...n-trump-232547

Interesting analysis of the Clinton campaign's blunders, especially in Michigan.
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Old 12-16-16, 07:20 AM   #136
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Re: What changes are needed in the Democratic Party?

Democrats can point to almost any explanation, from Bernie Sanders to Russian hacking to explain the 2016 loss, which means different factions of the party have very different views about what to do next.



“Everybody can point to something that went wrong — and they’re right,” he said. “It makes it impossible to know what the party really needs to do.
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Old 12-16-16, 07:49 AM   #137
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Re: What changes are needed in the Democratic Party?

Nope. Overthinking it. I don't think we need to change anything.

First, America ALWAYS flip-flops back and forth. Every administration is a vent for Average Joe's disappointing life. So whoever is in power is in charge of achieving the impossible. When that doesn't happen, politicians are to blame. Now when Trump disappoints everyone, and Average Joe doesn't get that promotion he was hoping for, it'll be those darn-tootin Republicans' fault!

Second, Trump's election is simply a product of its time. Most of his base was already locked down. If you're Republican, you vote Republican. The amount of people who switch sides is minute. It has more to do with who you can get excited enough to actually get off the sofa and vote (which still blows my mind ... but whatever). This time Trump did that by engaging the Breitbart types. He mixed those people with the dependable Republican base, and that's all he needed.

To get people out to vote... I think there's another perspective that people don't look at much. When you lose, and lose, and lose again, it gives you more and more energy to get out and do something about it. Republicans were in a losing battle under the Bush II years. Insults from places like The Daily Show grew and grew over 10 years. Then Obama won. Then Obama won ... again. Then it looked like Clinton was poised to win without much resistance. Places like Breitbart continues to embarrass sensible conservatives. All while Trump became the world's big joke. Those things pile up more and more, and Republicans really felt the energy to get out and vote. ... And Democrats felt the opposite - like they had it in the bag and didn't need to worry about voting. Look at it in personal fitness terms ... you get fat ... and fatter ... and fatter ... and at some point, you start doing something about it. That's the tipping point Republicans got to this time.
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Old 12-16-16, 08:11 AM   #138
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Re: What changes are needed in the Democratic Party?

Quote:
Originally Posted by movielib View Post
Edward-Isaac Dovere at Politico:

How Hillary lost Michigan — and blew the election:

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/1...n-trump-232547

Interesting analysis of the Clinton campaign's blunders, especially in Michigan.
They should have been more worried about here. Bernie won the state in defiance of the poll numbers in the primary. That if nothing else should have made them very unsure about the polling here.

The huge rust belt manufactoring sector made it prime for Trump's claims he would bring back jobs.

Plus, we've got a lot of racist asshole redneck types in the majority of the rural counties in the state. The Gov has been a Republican for like 6 yrs now.
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Old 12-16-16, 07:09 PM   #139
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Re: What changes are needed in the Democratic Party?

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Nope. Overthinking it. I don't think we need to change anything.
That may be difficult because with no analysis of how Clinton failed why would donors want to keep contributing to the party?

The wealthy Democrats who helped pump over $1 billion into Hillary Clinton’s losing effort want answers.

“A lot of people are saying, ‘I’m not putting another fucking dime in until someone tells me what just happened.’”
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Old 12-16-16, 07:27 PM   #140
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Re: What changes are needed in the Democratic Party?

Like the Madoff of Wall Street. People won't invest in something again if their investments just disappear without a good explanation. They were told there was no way Trump would win. They were told their money would take them places. They were told their money would guarantee them positions in government. Well, it all went to shit. Podesta comes out on stage, speaking for Hillary, telling everyone to go home. Not the best representation of a winning party.
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Old 12-16-16, 07:38 PM   #141
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Re: What changes are needed in the Democratic Party?

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Like the Madoff of Wall Street. People won't invest in something again if their investments just disappear without a good explanation. They were told there was no way Trump would win. They were told their money would take them places. They were told their money would guarantee them positions in government. Well, it all went to shit. Podesta comes out on stage, speaking for Hillary, telling everyone to go home. Not the best representation of a winning party.
They were told that Trump would build a wall. They were told that Trump would keep the muslims out. They were told that Trump would bring back manufacturing jobs. When none of these turn out to be true, who will the people blame?
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Old 12-16-16, 07:56 PM   #142
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Re: What changes are needed in the Democratic Party?

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When none of these turn out to be true, who will the people blame?
Hillary Clinton, Gary Johnson & Jill Stein.
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Old 12-16-16, 07:59 PM   #143
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Re: What changes are needed in the Democratic Party?

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That may be difficult because with no analysis of how Clinton failed why would donors want to keep contributing to the party?

The wealthy Democrats who helped pump over $1 billion into Hillary Clinton’s losing effort want answers.

“A lot of people are saying, ‘I’m not putting another fucking dime in until someone tells me what just happened.’”
I see. The key will be convincing wealthy liberal donors to not abandon Democratic fundraising in 2018 and 2020. To watch people vote for Trump must have been sickening. Not because of the lost money. But the lost logic ... and humanity. Time heals everything I suppose.
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Old 12-16-16, 08:03 PM   #144
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Re: What changes are needed in the Democratic Party?

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When none of these turn out to be true, who will the people blame?
Democrats. Duh.
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Old 12-16-16, 08:29 PM   #145
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Re: What changes are needed in the Democratic Party?

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Nope. Overthinking it. I don't think we need to change anything.
In regards to the Democratic Party's platform, I agree. If they believe in these policies or approaches, why change it because they lost ONE presidential election?

Kind of reminds me of Warner Brothers. Superman Returns doesn't do well, The Dark Knight does. The higher ups say, "Dark and grim made the Dark Knight a success, lets apply that to Man of Steel."

Man of Steel underperforms.

"It's because we didn't have Batman in it."

Puts Batman in the Man of Steel sequel and makes it dark, and it still underperforms.
Non-dark and gritty Marvel films like Civil War stay breaking records.

"Why do all our films have to be dark? Lets make Justice League fun and optimistic like The Avengers."


Quote:
Originally Posted by mspmms
“A lot of people are saying, ‘I’m not putting another fucking dime in until someone tells me what just happened.’”

The quote above almost makes it seem like presidential candidates are beholden to rich campaign donors.

Last edited by brayzie; 12-16-16 at 08:44 PM.
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Old 12-16-16, 08:34 PM   #146
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Re: What changes are needed in the Democratic Party?

Ha. I almost made my film analogy by saying that the Dems without funding are going to have to go all Francis Ford Coppola. After this year's "Jack" (Donna Brazile as Diane Lane, Bill Clinton in the Bill Cosby role) it's back to the drawing board with "Tetro" and "Twixt" (FTW)!
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Old 12-16-16, 08:38 PM   #147
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Re: What changes are needed in the Democratic Party?

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Originally Posted by Troy Stiffler View Post
Ha. I almost made my film analogy by saying that the Dems without funding are going to have to go all Francis Ford Coppola. After this year's "Jack" (Donna Brazile as Diane Lane, Bill Clinton in the Bill Cosby role) it's back to the drawing board with "Tetro" and "Twixt" (FTW)!
I don't know if this is response to the DC movie comment I erased (and put back), but now I have to look up this "Tetro" and "Twixt."
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Old 12-16-16, 08:44 PM   #148
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Re: What changes are needed in the Democratic Party?

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Originally Posted by brayzie View Post
In regards to the Democratic Party's platform, I agree. If they believe in these policies or approaches, why change it because they lost ONE presidential election?

Kind of reminds me of Warner Brothers. Superman Returns doesn't do well, The Dark Knight does. The higher ups say, "Dark and grim made the Dark Knight a success, lets apply that to Man of Steel."

Man of Steel underperforms.

"It's because we didn't have Batman in it."

Puts Batman in the Man of Steel sequel and makes it dark, and it still underperforms.

"Lets make Justice League less gritty and dark."
Will Wonder Woman will be another "DC darkfest"?
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Old 12-16-16, 08:46 PM   #149
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Re: What changes are needed in the Democratic Party?

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The quote above almost makes it seem like presidential candidates are beholden to rich campaign donors.
Nah
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Old 12-16-16, 08:48 PM   #150
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Re: What changes are needed in the Democratic Party?

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Will Wonder Woman will be another "DC darkfest"?
I don't care as long as it's good. I don't mind if Superman is grim and gritty but don't make it that way just because that's what worked for a completely different character like Batman. But WW takes place during WWI, so I'm really hoping that there's very little Avengers-like comedy and banter.
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