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Religion, Politics and World Events They make great dinner conversation, don't you think? plus Political Film

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Old 07-22-16, 04:23 PM   #76
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Re: The Islamic Terrorist Attack Thread

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Originally Posted by dave-o View Post
So, the rise in religious violence and hatred is because of atheism? Seriously, I'm trying to understand this logic.
Come on, even Dawkins understands this:

I have mixed feelings about the decline of Christianity, in so far as Christianity might be a bulwark against something worse.
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Old 07-22-16, 04:28 PM   #77
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Re: The Islamic Terrorist Attack Thread

No Christian terrorists? Nice to see the no True Christian machine is off an running again.
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Old 07-22-16, 04:31 PM   #78
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Re: The Islamic Terrorist Attack Thread

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Originally Posted by Ky-Fi View Post
If this was targeting a shopping mall, I'm guessing Islamic terrorism
Also it's Friday, which is their holy day...
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Old 07-22-16, 05:05 PM   #79
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Re: The Islamic Terrorist Attack Thread

Now they are saying at least eight dead, plus one of the shooters.
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Old 07-22-16, 05:21 PM   #80
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Re: The Islamic Terrorist Attack Thread

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Originally Posted by hdnmickey View Post
No Christian terrorists? Nice to see the no True Christian machine is off an running again.
Particularly in the context of this discussion, I am struggling to understand this post.
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Old 07-22-16, 05:28 PM   #81
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Re: The Islamic Terrorist Attack Thread

So let me recap. In a thread about Islamic terrorism, someone makes the point that (paraphrasing) 'what's wrong with people today' is that we don't have enough religion and that the rise of atheism is to blame (implied). Is that right? Because that's some awfully strange logic. Don't get me wrong, I understand the argument that Christianity is a bulwark (which by the way, does not mean that Christianity is good, only that it's better than what might come next, assumming you even agree with the statement in the first place). But in the context of this thread, saying atheism is to blame for the rise in religious hatred and violence is asinine.
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Old 07-22-16, 05:41 PM   #82
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Re: The Islamic Terrorist Attack Thread

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Originally Posted by dave-o View Post
So let me recap. In a thread about Islamic terrorism, someone makes the point that (paraphrasing) 'what's wrong with people today' is that we don't have enough religion and that the rise of atheism is to blame (implied). Is that right? Because that's some awfully strange logic. Don't get me wrong, I understand the argument that Christianity is a bulwark (which by the way, does not mean that Christianity is good, only that it's better than what might come next, assumming you even agree with the statement in the first place). But in the context of this thread, saying atheism is to blame for the rise in religious hatred and violence is asinine.
To be fair, it seems there are two different points being made. PhantomStranger's about the areligious, which I agree doesn't make much sense in the context it was posted, and Ky-Fi's.
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Old 07-22-16, 07:24 PM   #83
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Re: The Islamic Terrorist Attack Thread

Now 10 dead (maybe including shooter), at least that many wounded, police still hunting for maybe 3 other shooters....


https://www.theguardian.com/world/li...ng-centre-live
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Old 07-22-16, 07:39 PM   #84
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Re: The Islamic Terrorist Attack Thread

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Originally Posted by Artman View Post
Also it's Friday, which is their holy day...
Nothing scores you virgins like jihad on a holy day.
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Old 07-22-16, 07:48 PM   #85
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Re: The Islamic Terrorist Attack Thread

Now they're saying cautious "all clear", only one gunman, and he shot himself.
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Old 07-22-16, 10:50 PM   #86
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Re: The Islamic Terrorist Attack Thread

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Originally Posted by Ky-Fi View Post
Now they're saying cautious "all clear", only one gunman, and he shot himself.
Not that your typical Jihadist isn't suicidal but I am betting they would either blow themselves up or keep going till authorities took them out. This leads be to think it wasn't Islamist.
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Old 07-22-16, 10:54 PM   #87
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Re: The Islamic Terrorist Attack Thread

Now it is being said he was an 18 year old Iranian with duel German and Iranian citizenships. I guess I was wrong.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...re-Munich.html
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Old 07-22-16, 11:24 PM   #88
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Re: The Islamic Terrorist Attack Thread

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Originally Posted by Pharoh View Post
To be fair, it seems there are two different points being made. PhantomStranger's about the areligious, which I agree doesn't make much sense in the context it was posted, and Ky-Fi's.
Ah, I see. Thanks for pointing that out, I was conflating the two points. I have no real problem with what Ky-Fi was saying.
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Old 07-22-16, 11:59 PM   #89
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Re: The Islamic Terrorist Attack Thread

Interesting. Terrorists usually aren't Iranian.
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Old 07-23-16, 01:56 AM   #90
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Re: The Islamic Terrorist Attack Thread

I was making the point that Western society is far more suspectible to Islamic terrorist attacks now with Christianity's waning influence on our leadership and political values. This is markedly true in Europe, but the point still stands in the United States.

What people don't understand is that something was always going to fill the vacuum left by the decline in personal religious belief. Secular elites from the Left have tried instilling a number of different belief systems in its place, namely multiculturalism and environmentalism chief among them in recent decades.

Christianity had provided the moral bedrock of Western civilization since Constantine's rule of the Roman Empire until very recently. The new replacements are weak substitutes which don't directly address mankind's intrinsic spiritual needs. If you want to frame it in scientific terms, mankind has evolved with built-in religious desires. Designing society to ignore them has had unintended consequences.

If you do any study of the people that become Islamic terrorists in the West, you often find they aren't devout Muslims from birth. They are from Muslim families, but once immersed in Western culture, many of them fully embrace our morally decadent lifestyle without regard for the faith they grew up in.

This process causes intense cognitive dissonance for some religious-minded Muslim immigrants to the West. When life turns very stressful for them (lose a job, divorce, etc), they suddenly become very religious and see terrorism as an easy way out of their problems. This doesn't explain every Islamic terrorist but it's a growing trend seen most recently in the Nice attack.

These problems were much less evident when Western society was more outwardly compatible with religious values and thinking. Squeezing religion out of the public domain was mostly aimed at undermining Christianity in the West, but has also had a huge and unrecognized effect on new immigrants of other faiths incompatible with modern secular values.
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Old 07-23-16, 02:13 AM   #91
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Re: The Islamic Terrorist Attack Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by PhantomStranger View Post
I was making the point that Western society is far more suspectible to Islamic terrorist attacks now with Christianity's waning influence on our leadership and political values. This is markedly true in Europe, but the point still stands in the United States.

What people don't understand is that something was always going to fill the vacuum left by the decline in personal religious belief. Secular elites from the Left have tried instilling a number of different belief systems in its place, namely multiculturalism and environmentalism chief among them in recent decades.

Christianity had provided the moral bedrock of Western civilization since Constantine's rule of the Roman Empire until very recently. The new replacements are weak substitutes which don't directly address mankind's intrinsic spiritual needs. If you want to frame it in scientific terms, mankind has evolved with built-in religious desires. Designing society to ignore them has had unintended consequences.

If you do any study of the people that become Islamic terrorists in the West, you often find they aren't devout Muslims from birth. They are from Muslim families, but once immersed in Western culture, many of them fully embrace our morally decadent lifestyle without regard for the faith they grew up in.

This process causes intense cognitive dissonance for some religious-minded Muslim immigrants to the West. When life turns very stressful for them (lose a job, divorce, etc), they suddenly become very religious and see terrorism as an easy way out of their problems. This doesn't explain every Islamic terrorist but it's a growing trend seen most recently in the Nice attack.

These problems were much less evident when Western society was more outwardly compatible with religious values and thinking. Squeezing religion out of the public domain was mostly aimed at undermining Christianity in the West, but has also had a huge and unrecognized effect on new immigrants of other faiths incompatible with modern secular values.
The US is still one of the most religious nations in the western world. Perhaps you should take umbrage with the sorts of Christians who feel that only their religious beliefs should be accommodated and no one else's.
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Old 07-23-16, 02:28 AM   #92
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Re: The Islamic Terrorist Attack Thread

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Originally Posted by Supermallet View Post
The US is still one of the most religious nations in the western world.
In the western world yes.
PhantomStranger was comparing to the level in the middle east/the past.
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Old 07-23-16, 04:36 AM   #93
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Re: The Islamic Terrorist Attack Thread

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Originally Posted by Supermallet View Post
The US is still one of the most religious nations in the western world. Perhaps you should take umbrage with the sorts of Christians who feel that only their religious beliefs should be accommodated and no one else's.
I think he's saying that terrorism stems from those christians not enforcing their "values" onto society, either through government action or social pressure.

Sounds like a great idea. Israel is a religious state and they don't have any problems with islamic terrorism.
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Old 07-23-16, 07:03 AM   #94
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Re: The Islamic Terrorist Attack Thread

Reports of those words again... Allahu Akbar.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...re-Munich.html
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Old 07-23-16, 07:27 AM   #95
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Re: The Islamic Terrorist Attack Thread

Despite the reports of "allah akbar" that it seems the German authorities are trying to link this to the right wing Norway shooting. I haven't seen much actual evidence of this, just reports that they say it's "obvious" because it was the anniversary of that attack. Other evidence, according to German police: a lot of the victims were young, and the shooter researched mass shootings and rampages.
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Old 07-23-16, 08:36 AM   #96
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Re: The Islamic Terrorist Attack Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by PhantomStranger View Post
I was making the point that Western society is far more suspectible to Islamic terrorist attacks now with Christianity's waning influence on our leadership and political values. This is markedly true in Europe, but the point still stands in the United States.

What people don't understand is that something was always going to fill the vacuum left by the decline in personal religious belief. Secular elites from the Left have tried instilling a number of different belief systems in its place, namely multiculturalism and environmentalism chief among them in recent decades.

Christianity had provided the moral bedrock of Western civilization since Constantine's rule of the Roman Empire until very recently. The new replacements are weak substitutes which don't directly address mankind's intrinsic spiritual needs. If you want to frame it in scientific terms, mankind has evolved with built-in religious desires. Designing society to ignore them has had unintended consequences.

If you do any study of the people that become Islamic terrorists in the West, you often find they aren't devout Muslims from birth. They are from Muslim families, but once immersed in Western culture, many of them fully embrace our morally decadent lifestyle without regard for the faith they grew up in.

This process causes intense cognitive dissonance for some religious-minded Muslim immigrants to the West. When life turns very stressful for them (lose a job, divorce, etc), they suddenly become very religious and see terrorism as an easy way out of their problems.
I don't even know what to say here. This is unsubstantiated opinion. I could paste a 4-paragraph rant just as easily blaming consumerism or capitalism or whatever.

More Jesus as the fix for Islamic terrorism is hilarious somehow.

I don't see how not enough Jesus in our lives is somehow making us "more vulnerable" to terrorists with guns and bombs and the willingness to die. Complete hyperbole.
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Old 07-23-16, 09:34 AM   #97
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Re: The Islamic Terrorist Attack Thread

It's crazy the shooter was only 18.
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Old 07-23-16, 09:46 AM   #98
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Re: The Islamic Terrorist Attack Thread

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Originally Posted by wmansir View Post
Despite the reports of "allah akbar" that it seems the German authorities are trying to link this to the right wing Norway shooting. I haven't seen much actual evidence of this, just reports that they say it's "obvious" because it was the anniversary of that attack. Other evidence, according to German police: a lot of the victims were young, and the shooter researched mass shootings and rampages.
Didn't it already get attributed to a Muslim young man?
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Old 07-23-16, 09:55 AM   #99
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Re: The Islamic Terrorist Attack Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by PhantomStranger View Post
I was making the point that Western society is far more suspectible to Islamic terrorist attacks now with Christianity's waning influence on our leadership and political values. This is markedly true in Europe, but the point still stands in the United States.

What people don't understand is that something was always going to fill the vacuum left by the decline in personal religious belief. Secular elites from the Left have tried instilling a number of different belief systems in its place, namely multiculturalism and environmentalism chief among them in recent decades.

Christianity had provided the moral bedrock of Western civilization since Constantine's rule of the Roman Empire until very recently. The new replacements are weak substitutes which don't directly address mankind's intrinsic spiritual needs. If you want to frame it in scientific terms, mankind has evolved with built-in religious desires. Designing society to ignore them has had unintended consequences

If you do any study of the people that become Islamic terrorists in the West, you often find they aren't devout Muslims from birth. They are from Muslim families, but once immersed in Western culture, many of them fully embrace our morally decadent lifestyle without regard for the faith they grew up in.

This process causes intense cognitive dissonance for some religious-minded Muslim immigrants to the West. When life turns very stressful for them (lose a job, divorce, etc), they suddenly become very religious and see terrorism as an easy way out of their problems. This doesn't explain every Islamic terrorist but it's a growing trend seen most recently in the Nice attack.

These problems were much less evident when Western society was more outwardly compatible with religious values and thinking. Squeezing religion out of the public domain was mostly aimed at undermining Christianity in the West, but has also had a huge and unrecognized effect on new immigrants of other faiths incompatible with modern secular values.
That's exactly right. Christianity had been fading in Europe since the late 19th century, and I would argue that its death knell was really WWI. In my opinion, we've already seen two major replacement ideologies in Europe, communism and fascism, and now we're on the third: multiculturalism.

As mentioned before, I don't think you need to see Christianity as either true or good to understand this. Every society in the history of the world has been built on some theoretical philosophy of the nature of reality--and countless things will result when people with that specific philosophy begin making laws and government and society. If it's not Christianity, it's going to be something else, and that something else will produce a different society. Reality will show us what those differences are, for better or worse.

It seems to me that the popular modern belief is that "it doesn't matter what cultural or religious values people seem to have on the outside, because on the inside we all pretty much have the same goals for society." And that strikes me as absolutely ahistorical nonsense----one that stems from people's inability to recognize that the postmodern, post WWII, liberal, secular materialist Western worldview is simply one among many dozens of competing worldviews.
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Last edited by Ky-Fi; 07-23-16 at 10:07 AM.
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Old 07-23-16, 11:44 AM   #100
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Re: The Islamic Terrorist Attack Thread

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Originally Posted by DeputyDave View Post
Didn't it already get attributed to a Muslim young man?
According to recent reports, it seems that this kid was more of a follower of Klebold and Harris than Allah and Mohammed.
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