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Religion, Politics and World Events They make great dinner conversation, don't you think? plus Political Film

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Old 01-23-16, 06:01 PM   #51
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Re: 2016 One and Only Abortion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by inri222 View Post
Fanatics can be a determined bunch.
Yes, Planned Parenthood [sic], NARAL, etc. prove that every day.

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Originally Posted by hdnmickey View Post
How about being on the road on our way to the events we have planned for the day? Sorry I couldn't respond on your time table. Once again you prove that you have no interest in respectful discussion. If you were you were, you would acknowledge the countless times your question was answered in other threads on the topic.
And yet...here you are, now off the road, once again refusing to answer. How convenient that you always have time to post any time of day or night except when you're stumped...and then we encounter a coincidental media blackout. What's your excuse now? Saying "that question has been answered" takes more time than typing an actual answer...if such existed. Since it doesn't, all you can do is bluster with false claims, knowing that you have no argument.

Time to put up or shut up. And this time there's no handy link to bail you out, and your bluff has been called...again. And, just as you have done in the past, you may choose to quietly scurry away hoping no one will notice.

And take your time. Wait until you're home from work. Think about it for a week or two. The forum will still be here...waiting.

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Originally Posted by Jason View Post
Do I have to post the video again?

Is there ANY thought, argument, or rational explanation you would accept apart from one that says that abortion murders babies and everyone who supports it is deluded or misinformed?
The video that answers the question I asked above? Sure, please do post it. That should only take a moment of your time if such a video actually exists, or you can simply do as the poster above & try to bluff your way out of giving an answer.

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Originally Posted by dave-o View Post
People...science is on his side, don't you get it?*

*except it is not, at least not how he thinks...but that song has been played over and over and over*

**i love when devoutly religious people use science when it fits their needs.
Not up to the challenge, either, dave?

Science, being created by God, is always on the side of believers...as is reason.

I have to say that I'm rather disappointed at the lackluster response given that y'all have had hours to try to come up with an answer that should be at your fingertips (having devoted much thought to it in the past, naturally)...especially when the question should be so easy to answer.

I do enjoy it when posters resort to looking to fellow travelers for support ("guys," "he", etc.) rather than addressing the poster directly. It indicates a tacit and not-so-subtle admission that the person doubts his/her own footing and has to appeal for reassurance.

Last edited by creekdipper; 01-23-16 at 06:31 PM.
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Old 01-23-16, 07:36 PM   #52
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Re: 2016 One and Only Abortion Thread

Creek, I know this is a personal question but it does pertain to the discussion.

How many unwanted children have you adopted and reared? Teaching doesn't count.
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Old 01-23-16, 07:42 PM   #53
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Re: 2016 One and Only Abortion Thread

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Actually, people have NOT explained that.

Have you ever noticed that those who claim to be "personally opposed to abortion" rarely if even say WHY they are "personally opposed?"

On what grounds would someone be "personally opposed" to abortion yet feel that it would be perfectly acceptable for others?
I don't necessarily want to speak for those who express that view, but I suppose it would a similar answer to how some are opposed to eating meat but do nothing to prevent others from doing the same. Perhaps they find it to be a wrong, but not a severe enough wrong to legislate.
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Old 01-23-16, 07:46 PM   #54
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Re: The 2016 Presidential Election thread: Now with more pics!

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Originally Posted by creekdipper View Post
A "fetus" is a developing human being. So is a toddler. So is an adolescent. So is an adult. So is an elderly person.
A 1 week old fetus is a mass of cells that could grow into a human being.

Similarly, a woman's egg could grow into a human being if given sperm.
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Old 01-23-16, 07:50 PM   #55
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Re: 2016 One and Only Abortion Thread

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Originally Posted by Vibiana View Post
Let's clear this whole issue up once and for all.

Abortion is a woman's right and her choice to make, so unless you're the one pregnant, it's none of your fucking business.

Don't like abortion? Don't have one. Issue resolved.

/thread
Vibiana, how do you feel about the following: a woman feels magnanimous towards people who need organs. She gets pregnant. 8.5 months later, she gets surgeons to open her up to harvest all the fetus organs, and then aborts.

Woman's right and her choice to make?
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Old 01-23-16, 09:00 PM   #56
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Re: 2016 One and Only Abortion Thread

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Originally Posted by creekdipper View Post
Yes, Planned Parenthood [sic], NARAL, etc. prove that every day.
Yup, the ones that are not imposing their beliefs on others and actually offering a choice are the fanatics.
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Old 01-23-16, 09:24 PM   #57
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Re: 2016 One and Only Abortion Thread

Someone asked another member a question about adoption, I will tell you my story: My wife and I have adopted and we are raising a beautiful child that would likely have been aborted.

I am a father twice, once by birth and then again by adoption - I am pro life. I am not a fanatic.

I do not believe you must have lady parts to have an opinion about abortion any more than if you don't drink alcohol you can't have an opinion about drunk drivers.
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Old 01-23-16, 10:03 PM   #58
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Re: 2016 One and Only Abortion Thread

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I do not believe you must have lady parts to have an opinion about abortion any more than if you don't drink alcohol you can't have an opinion about drunk drivers.
You can drink if you want to. You'll never be able to have a baby. So why should you be able to make a decision about something for someone else, because you'll never be in a position to deal with it?
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Old 01-23-16, 10:04 PM   #59
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Re: 2016 One and Only Abortion Thread

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Originally Posted by creekdipper View Post
Yes, Planned Parenthood [sic], NARAL, etc. prove that every day.



And yet...here you are, now off the road, once again refusing to answer. How convenient that you always have time to post any time of day or night except when you're stumped...and then we encounter a coincidental media blackout. What's your excuse now? Saying "that question has been answered" takes more time than typing an actual answer...if such existed. Since it doesn't, all you can do is bluster with false claims, knowing that you have no argument.

Time to put up or shut up. And this time there's no handy link to bail you out, and your bluff has been called...again. And, just as you have done in the past, you may choose to quietly scurry away hoping no one will notice.

And take your time. Wait until you're home from work. Think about it for a week or two. The forum will still be here...waiting.



The video that answers the question I asked above? Sure, please do post it. That should only take a moment of your time if such a video actually exists, or you can simply do as the poster above & try to bluff your way out of giving an answer.



Not up to the challenge, either, dave?

Science, being created by God, is always on the side of believers...as is reason.

I have to say that I'm rather disappointed at the lackluster response given that y'all have had hours to try to come up with an answer that should be at your fingertips (having devoted much thought to it in the past, naturally)...especially when the question should be so easy to answer.

I do enjoy it when posters resort to looking to fellow travelers for support ("guys," "he", etc.) rather than addressing the poster directly. It indicates a tacit and not-so-subtle admission that the person doubts his/her own footing and has to appeal for reassurance.

Been there done that....
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Old 01-23-16, 10:25 PM   #60
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Re: 2016 One and Only Abortion Thread

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Originally Posted by mspmms View Post
Someone asked another member a question about adoption, I will tell you my story: My wife and I have adopted and we are raising a beautiful child that would likely have been aborted.

I am a father twice, once by birth and then again by adoption - I am pro life. I am not a fanatic.
That's awesome and I am glad to hear that.

Now you need to get all your other anti-abortion friends to follow suit. But you will all likely need to pick up a lot more than one kid each if you wish to ban all abortions.
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Old 01-23-16, 10:46 PM   #61
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Re: 2016 One and Only Abortion Thread

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You can drink if you want to. You'll never be able to have a baby. So why should you be able to make a decision about something for someone else, because you'll never be in a position to deal with it?
Exactly, and people still don't get it. Or maybe they don't want to.
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Old 01-23-16, 11:15 PM   #62
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Re: 2016 One and Only Abortion Thread

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Originally Posted by Draven View Post
You can drink if you want to. You'll never be able to have a baby. So why should you be able to make a decision about something for someone else, because you'll never be in a position to deal with it?
I really hate the abortion debate but I had to chime in on this. You're looking at it from a different angle. You could argue that performing an abortion is an immoral act just as operating a vehicle while drunk is an immoral act. Anyone is capable of performing an abortion just like anyone is capable of driving drunk. Pro-choice people always try to frame the issue as only being the woman's choice but there is also the choice of a practitioner as well.
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Old 01-24-16, 12:49 AM   #63
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Re: 2016 One and Only Abortion Thread

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Vibiana, how do you feel about the following: a woman feels magnanimous towards people who need organs. She gets pregnant. 8.5 months later, she gets surgeons to open her up to harvest all the fetus organs, and then aborts.

Woman's right and her choice to make?
Yes. Good luck finding a provider, though.
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Old 01-24-16, 03:48 AM   #64
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Re: 2016 One and Only Abortion Thread

"Deafening silence" from creekdipper....
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Old 01-24-16, 03:50 AM   #65
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Re: 2016 One and Only Abortion Thread

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"Deafening silence" from creekdipper....
Oh, he'll be back. Even the righteous have to sleep.
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Old 01-24-16, 06:31 AM   #66
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Re: 2016 One and Only Abortion Thread

Creekdipper believes abortion is an "atrocity", the "mass killing of babies" and a "holocaust of staggering proportions, committed right under our noses." His solution to end the practice? Argue about it on a pop culture message board.
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Old 01-24-16, 06:50 AM   #67
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Re: 2016 One and Only Abortion Thread

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Creekdipper believes abortion is an "atrocity", the "mass killing of babies" and a "holocaust of staggering proportions, committed right under our noses." His solution to end the practice? Argue about it on a pop culture message board.
Well, he is the Apostle to DVD Talk.
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Old 01-24-16, 08:46 AM   #68
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Re: 2016 One and Only Abortion Thread

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Oh, he'll be back. Even the righteous have to sleep.
I think he is still typing his response
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Old 01-24-16, 10:30 AM   #69
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Re: 2016 One and Only Abortion Thread

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Originally Posted by Spiderbite View Post
Creek, I know this is a personal question but it does pertain to the discussion.

How many unwanted children have you adopted and reared? Teaching doesn't count.
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Originally Posted by Spiderbite View Post
That's awesome and I am glad to hear that.

Now you need to get all your other anti-abortion friends to follow suit. But you will all likely need to pick up a lot more than one kid each if you wish to ban all abortions.
Just now getting back to the discussion, Spider. I've been asked that question before (the answer is none) and given detailed explanations why we haven't adopted children (although we have assisted several friends in adopting as well as assisting the mothers who provided the gift of life to their "unwanted" children...or children for whom they felt they could not provide the best opportunities).

I was going to ask exactly how that fact pertained to the question...anticipating the answer since ones have been given before but (unlike many here) not presuming to read your mind in advance. However, skimming the posts since I last visited the thread, I saw your response to mspmms. If your answer to the pertinence of your question is what I think it would be, your post to mspmms renders that moot, since (by your reckoning) it would not "fix" the problem.

If you missed my earlier answer about why we haven't adopted children, I'll be glad to post those answers again (unlike those who simply say, "Go and find those posts). The short version is that not everyone has the same gifts...as evidenced by abusive or neglectful parents who do decide to keep their children (including very wealthy people of great means) in addition to those who simply don't have the temperament or physical capabilities to do so. If your implication is that people unwilling to adopt children should not have the right to an opinion on the topic, would you say the same to someone living below the poverty line? Or to people who have suffered a disabling accident or who already are caring for children suffering from debilitating illnesses that leave them emotionally and financially drained?

And how many emancipated slaves did Abraham Lincoln and William Lloyd Garrison take into their employ? If they did not do so, does that disqualify them from speaking out on the topic?

Are you sympathetic to people suffering from alcoholism? How many alcoholics...or their families...have you taken in?

Although there are circumstances in which birth control fails or (in extremely rare circumstances) women become pregnant due to sexual assault, the vast majority of abortions take place as a form of birth control. In the vast majority of cases, people who willingly and with consent engaged in intercourse become pregnant with an unwanted child. People make poor decisions all the time...such as gambling (of which engaging in intercourse without being prepared for possible natural consequences could be considered a form). Some people are against gambling...or gambling without means to address unwanted consequences...and speak out against that practice. Does that mean that those who condemn the practice should be silent unless they are willing and able to bail out the gamblers? That would be applying the same "logic" as used by those insisting that those who acted responsibly should be held responsible for the mistakes of others; otherwise, those critics should remain silent.

The irony is that most pro-life people...while still insisting that the best way to prevent unwanted pregnancies is to engage in responsible sexual behavior...would be glad to see taxes go to provide support that would spare the lives of children destined for execution. The "pragmatic" objection to increased taxes that I always see comes from the pro-abortion side...who might well change their tunes about unrestrained sexual license if they saw that their own taxes would increase as a result. Instead, abortion provides a convenient and far less expensive way to sweep the problem under the rug.
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Old 01-24-16, 10:40 AM   #70
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Re: 2016 One and Only Abortion Thread

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Originally Posted by The Valeyard View Post
"Deafening silence" from creekdipper....
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Originally Posted by movielib View Post
Oh, he'll be back. Even the righteous have to sleep.
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Originally Posted by William Fuld View Post
Creekdipper believes abortion is an "atrocity", the "mass killing of babies" and a "holocaust of staggering proportions, committed right under our noses." His solution to end the practice? Argue about it on a pop culture message board.
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Originally Posted by movielib View Post
Well, he is the Apostle to DVD Talk.
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Originally Posted by Psi View Post
I think he is still typing his response
Hopefully, Valeyard, the response answers your question about who is willing to actually answer questions and who runs away.

Interesting that not a single person has touched the question posed yesterday re: those who say that they are "personally opposed" to abortion yet support the practice.

THAT is deafening...and continued silence.

But thanks to Spider for actually addressing other members with questions rather than choosing to go the "he" route. Spider undoubtedly recognizes that it's more difficult to engage in conversation with debating points, yet he chooses to do so rather than choosing the alternate preferred by those without arguments. For that, Spider gets my respect.

And, William, congrats for joining the ranks of those who attempt to speak for others, but I have posted many times over the 13 years I've been a member here that the solution is changed hearts and removing the blinders from the minds of those whose consciences have been (willingly) made subordinate to either personal convenience or fear of the opinions of other humans.

Because only coming to one's senses or responding to compassion, common sense (AKA "reason"), and scientific evidence will result in adopting public policies through legislation that will truly protect the innocent...as supposedly guaranteed in our own Constitution.
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Old 01-24-16, 10:48 AM   #71
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Re: 2016 One and Only Abortion Thread

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Yup, the ones that are not imposing their beliefs on others and actually offering a choice are the fanatics.
Much respect for finally acknowledging that those organizations are imposing their beliefs upon the millions of people whose executions they approve and assist.

I nearly posted a historical photograph a day or so ago of people laughing and jeering at the deaths of innocents (although similar pictures from other historical contexts do get posted occasionally without objection). The picture of people who considered others to be subhuman is a reminder that the death of innocents is not a laughing matter to people of conscience.
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Old 01-24-16, 10:59 AM   #72
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Re: 2016 One and Only Abortion Thread

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I don't necessarily want to speak for those who express that view, but I suppose it would a similar answer to how some are opposed to eating meat but do nothing to prevent others from doing the same. Perhaps they find it to be a wrong, but not a severe enough wrong to legislate.
Thanks, Pharoh, for at least addressing the issue. I've probably been presumptuous in assuming that you are not speaking for the side of those who support abortion since I don't remember exactly where you come down on the issue.

I actually deleted a somewhat similar sarcastic comment when I originally posted the question, saying that if "personally opposed" doesn't carry any more moral weight than "I don't like broccoli," then the phrase is meaningless. I deleted it because (a) it treats an ongoing human tragedy of staggering proportions...a human holocaust with no end in sight...too cavalierly and (b) I wanted the supporters of abortion to speak for themselves...which, apparently, they can't. One would think they would at least be frantically searching for an internet link, although another possibility is that they simply don't care. And that is not an insult...that appears to be a reality ("none of my business").

The example you give is similar (although I have an extremely close friend who is morally opposed to eating meat, and not on any "religious" grounds). For most, it's just a personal choice. For those who consider killing other species to be immoral, it might be relevant (although those people would quickly starve to death if they applied the same logic to plant species, which are also life forms). The number of people who oppose eating meat on moral grounds is relatively small compared to the number who oppose killing humans.

In other words, does "personally opposed" mean that they think it is wrong? And, if it is wrong, WHY is it wrong?
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Old 01-24-16, 11:10 AM   #73
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Re: 2016 One and Only Abortion Thread

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Well, he is the Apostle to DVD Talk.
Actually, if for those who choose to listen, there are quite a few on DVDTalk who are expressing biblical truth...and their numbers are growing.

Sure, their numbers are smaller here than in the general population...no surprise given the nature of the subject. You'll probably find more conservative views than liberal represented on a "sports" board, too.

But shouldn't people be welcoming different viewpoints in a "Politics and Religion" Forum. What...you expect everyone to share the same viewpoint? I thought "diversity" is the spice of life...yet it appears that an awful lot of people seek out others to bolster their somewhat shaky personal views. In other words, they share the "courage of their crowd-supported, popular convictions."

And for each person who is critical of those who have unwavering certainty of their convictions...those people ought to ask themselves if they question the veracity of their chosen viewpoints on issues such as abortion, homosexual marriage, government authority, religious authority, etc. Are they actually going to pretend that they have not already decided their position and are open to changing their views?

Their posts suggest otherwise.
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Old 01-24-16, 11:11 AM   #74
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Re: 2016 One and Only Abortion Thread

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I don't necessarily want to speak for those who express that view, but I suppose it would a similar answer to how some are opposed to eating meat but do nothing to prevent others from doing the same. Perhaps they find it to be a wrong, but not a severe enough wrong to legislate.
Not sure food is the best analogy. A much better one would touch on another hot topic around here. While I personally would never get married to a man (same sex), I'm not going to prevent others from doing so.

The key here is that when somebody says their personal views on subjects like abortion and same sex marriage should not be forced onto others, because that would be an immoral thing to do, they actually mean it. But invariably there will be people that are not able to grasp the concept or will flat out call these people liars.

And just for the record, since it appears we now are expected to account for every minute of the day, I'm not going to be online much today. Many things to do before the playoff games this evening. And then the playoff games begin!
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Old 01-24-16, 11:22 AM   #75
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Re: 2016 One and Only Abortion Thread

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Originally Posted by creekdipper View Post
Hopefully, Valeyard, the response answers your question about who is willing to actually answer questions and who runs away.

Interesting that not a single person has touched the question posed yesterday re: those who say that they are "personally opposed" to abortion yet support the practice.

THAT is deafening...and continued silence.
I, for one, do not answer such a question because I'm not personally opposed to abortion. As long as it is not after the 24th week.

I also do not engage in many of the standard "pro-choice" "arguments" such as "why don't 'pro-life' people care about those who have been born?" (because they do) or why don't they adopt every parentless kid (because that's a silly question) or much of the other peripheral nonsense.

Quote:
But thanks to Spider for actually addressing other members with questions rather than choosing to go the "he" route. Spider undoubtedly recognizes that it's more difficult to engage in conversation with debating points, yet he chooses to do so rather than choosing the alternate preferred by those without arguments. For that, Spider gets my respect.
Oh, so now the "he route" is wrong or cowardly, even if one is clearly making a joke.

Quote:
And, William, congrats for joining the ranks of those who attempt to speak for others, but I have posted many times over the 13 years I've been a member here that the solution is changed hearts and removing the blinders from the minds of those whose consciences have been (willingly) made subordinate to either personal convenience or fear of the opinions of other humans.

Because only coming to one's senses or responding to compassion, common sense (AKA "reason"), and scientific evidence will result in adopting public policies through legislation that will truly protect the innocent...as supposedly guaranteed in our own Constitution.
It doesn't matter how much you say you have science on your side because you don't, at least not any more than the pro-abortion rights side. I find it much more persuasive that science shows us that a life begins at conception but a human life begins at brain birth (after the 24th week, at the earliest). I know you are persuaded differently but I think your interpretation of the science is wrong just as you think mine is wrong. I, at least, can see that the other side's interpretation is not totally worthless.

And both "pro-choice" and "pro-life" are loaded propaganda terms which attempt to imply the other side is anti-choice and anti-life respectively. Neither is correct or fair and I will not use them. I use "pro-abortion rights" and "anti-abortion rights."
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