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You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

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You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

Old 09-02-18, 09:38 AM
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

If you keep the ammo separate from the gun you make it more difficult to use in a emergency.
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Old 09-03-18, 11:38 AM
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

Originally Posted by Baron Of Hell View Post
If you keep the ammo separate from the gun you make it more difficult to use in a emergency.
Since a gun in the home makes the home more dangerous to those in the home, keeping the ammo separate makes sense.

However that would likely only b able to b applied to non-handguns due to 2a issues.
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Old 10-05-18, 04:14 PM
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

Wow.

Spoilerized for size.

From MAD Magazine:
Spoiler:





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Old 10-05-18, 06:00 PM
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

^ Sweet fucking Christ that gave me chills.

It's hard for me to send my kids to school every single day.
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Old 10-05-18, 08:56 PM
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

wow
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Old 10-05-18, 10:29 PM
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

When did Mad Magazine get so pithy?
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Old 10-12-18, 12:56 PM
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

Well-done video.


Last edited by Dan; 10-13-18 at 01:02 PM.
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Old 10-12-18, 09:36 PM
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

https://newschannel20.com/news/local...school-grounds

Illinois superintendent packin' heat, can legally carry gun on school grounds

HUTSONVILLE, Ill. (WICS) — One superintendent in Illinois said she wants to have something other than a stapler to defend her students.

After nine months in the police academy, Julie Kraemer went from superintendent to cop. Kraemer is now packing heat on school grounds.

"I never thought I would have to do this," Hutsonville Superintendent & School Resource Officer, Julie Kraemer said.

Kraemer has been the Hutsonville superintendent since 2010, with more than 20 years of education experience. It wasn't until last year's shooting at Mattoon High School that she thought about ways to protect her students.

"Trying to make sure that we had something other than a stapler to throw at somebody or to do something if somebody come in and tried to hurt our kids," Kraemer said.

The school district couldn't afford to hire a resource officer, so Kraemer went to the police academy.

"Definitely out of my comfort zone and a little bit different than what I'm used to," Kraemer said.

As of September 22, 2018 Superintendent Kraemer can legally carry a gun on school grounds.

"You're worried because you never really know what everybody is going to do, but I've got to tell you the community has been outstanding by far. It's all been positive," Kraemer said.

Not everyone agrees with arming educators.

"Don't think that it's a very good idea because any kid can get it and accidents do happen," Springfield resident Nichole Kyle said.

"If the students feel safer with teachers having guns, I do believe we should be for it, but only if they have the proper training," Springfield resident Sean Sullivan said.

If a shooter were to threaten Hutsonville students, Kramer said she's ready.

"If a student made the choice to bring a weapon into my building and are hurting innocent other students who didn't make that choice then I would not hesitate. I would not have a problem with taking care of that," Kraemer said.

Superintendent Kraemer isn't the only educator with a badge. Steve Webb, a superintendent in Goreville, Illinois, became an officer in 2010. He said it's helpful for school districts in rural areas.

The National Association of School Resource Officers, estimates that between 14,000 and 20,000 SRO's are currently in service nationwide.
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Old 10-13-18, 12:25 PM
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

Did u have a comment on that? Wasnít sure the direction you were going.

Think Iíve made my take clear. Itís a moronic idea to arm teachers and staff.

Interesting that conservatives think giving clean needles to drug users promotes more drug use. Giving condoms or teaching sex education promotes more sex. Legalizing weed promotes more drug use.

But having more guns around reduces gun usage???? Hummm ok...
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Old 10-13-18, 12:45 PM
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

Originally Posted by Sdallnct View Post
Think Iíve made my take clear. Itís a moronic idea to arm teachers and staff.
I'll go a step further and say it's an intentionally-disengenuous distraction to invoke outraged chatter about a ludicrous idea in order to not talk about the real issues.

Don't get distracted. They bring it up? Name it for the distraction it is. Call it out. Move back to the real issues. That's all the energy it deserves.
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Old 10-13-18, 01:02 PM
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

Fixed the link to the video in my previous post... not sure why it was broken.
Anyway... it's worth watching.
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Old 10-13-18, 01:47 PM
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

I agree it’s a distraction, but if a a teacher wants to arm themselves I think that’s okay.

Most terrible part of the article is the claim that the district doesn’t have the money for an armed resource officer. If that is true it points to a very broken city, police force, and school district.
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Old 10-13-18, 01:51 PM
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

Originally Posted by Sdallnct View Post
Think Iíve made my take clear. Itís a moronic idea to arm teachers and staff.
In this case she has gone through the police academy so has had the same training and credentials that any resource officer might have. The fact that her full time duty has her behind a desk in the office versus behind a desk near the entrance shouldn't affect anything. I've endorsed it only so far as to have people with military or police backgrounds be authorized. Certainly putting oneself through the academy counts.

I think I would rather have her armed than the "real" police resource officer that was in Parkland Fl.
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Old 10-13-18, 02:40 PM
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

Originally Posted by Sdallnct View Post
Did u have a comment on that? Wasn’t sure the direction you were going.
Do I have to have a comment?

The story pretty well speaks for itself. A school administrator wanted to be able to do more to protect her students. She didn’t make a knee jerk reaction. She put some rational thought into it and went to obtain more training than most gun owners would dream of. Seems pretty responsible to me.

Edit: OK, here is a comment: in Illinois, you can’t just “go to the police academy”. You have to be sent by a law enforcement agency. I’m assuming she worked with the local PD to arrange for this to happen.

Last edited by Abob Teff; 10-13-18 at 04:02 PM.
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Old 10-13-18, 06:06 PM
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

Originally Posted by Abob Teff View Post
Do I have to have a comment?

The story pretty well speaks for itself. A school administrator wanted to be able to do more to protect her students. She didnít make a knee jerk reaction. She put some rational thought into it and went to obtain more training than most gun owners would dream of. Seems pretty responsible to me.

Edit: OK, here is a comment: in Illinois, you canít just ďgo to the police academyĒ. You have to be sent by a law enforcement agency. Iím assuming she worked with the local PD to arrange for this to happen.
I donít want to be the rule police, but I always thought posting an article in the political forum required a comment. But regardless, thanks for adding commentary.
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Old 10-13-18, 06:21 PM
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

Originally Posted by JimRochester View Post
In this case she has gone through the police academy so has had the same training and credentials that any resource officer might have. The fact that her full time duty has her behind a desk in the office versus behind a desk near the entrance shouldn't affect anything. I've endorsed it only so far as to have people with military or police backgrounds be authorized. Certainly putting oneself through the academy counts.

I think I would rather have her armed than the "real" police resource officer that was in Parkland Fl.
Really? Having multiple duties and responsibilities shouldnít effect anything? Your comment about a full time, dedicated resource officer adds credence to my arguement. If the full time, dedicated, trained resource officer couldnít (or would not) stop a shooter how do we expect a teacher to? Or an administrator? I very much question the reality of her statement that she would ďwithout hesitation...Ē. I donít doubt her sincerity. What if its her kid with he gun? Or her kids best friend? Or what if a teacher she is a personal friend with starts shooting? I think it obviously unwise to be both work side-by-side and build relationships with people AND be responsible for shooting them. I do not see how one can both be a friend or even good coworker AND be responsible for policing them.
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Old 10-13-18, 10:58 PM
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

Don’t forget, she’s a jack-booted neo-Nazi scum sucking fascist, racist murderer now. Just like all cops.

Seriously though, I will agree that it is a bit brazen and easy to make those comments without ever having been in that situation. That said, if it is a matter of saving the person on the attack or saving several other students and teachers ... I’m betting she tries to stop the shooter.

As far as the previously referenced SRO ... maybe there is a difference between somebody who took a cushy assignment and somebody who is already there and has a passion for the purpose.
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Old 10-14-18, 08:24 AM
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

Originally Posted by Sdallnct View Post
If the full time, dedicated, trained resource officer couldn’t (or would not) stop a shooter how do we expect a teacher to?
In all fairness, I think the Parkland shooting revealed a real shortcoming in active shooter response training that many police departments had been providing for years. For example, I have had fairly intensive active shooter response training (often complete with role players, fake blood, simunitions, etc.) every year for several years now. Up until this year, the training was almost entirely groups of four and, to a lesser extent, pairs tactics. There was usually very little that was solo. This year, did two whole days and it was 100% solo response.

In a situation like that, the best you can hope for is that the officer relies on his training if he doesn't have experience to fall back on (which almost no one does). Failing that, he/she will rely on his personality. In this case, Peterson was probably indeed a bit of a coward. Let's face it: he was an oldtimer and probably would not have maneuvered his way into a school resource officer position to begin with if he was an aggressive go-getter.

What if its her kid with he gun? Or her kids best friend? Or what if a teacher she is a personal friend with starts shooting? I think it obviously unwise to be both work side-by-side and build relationships with people AND be responsible for shooting them. I do not see how one can both be a friend or even good coworker AND be responsible for policing them.
Your scenarios are astronomically unlikely, but also a bit moot. I don't think anyone really expects an armed teacher to aggressively hunt down a school shooter when he/she hears gunshots from across the school. The expectation is that he/she will protect the area and children around themselves. For example, if a teacher barricades her classroom a la Virginia Tech, would you rather the teacher inside be armed or unarmed if/when the shooter tries to force his way in?

Even if one of your scenarios comes to fruition and she fails to engage because the shooter is a relative's kid or something, its not like she is going to think, "hmm, I like that kid, I think I'll help him!" At worst, the armed teacher becomes a neutral and either runs away or gets shot. Even the argument that her death possibly gives the shooter another gun to use, while not entirely irrelevant, is very weak. Cruz, for example, was armed with an AR-15 and lots of magazines. Stopping to pick up some teacher's subcompact 9mm would not have helped him.

All that said, I am just nitpicking here. I doubt I support the arming of teachers anymore than you do. In highly unlikely scenarios, an armed teacher absolutely could help and could save the lives of children. However, the other 99.999% of the time, its another loaded gun inside a school that doesn't need to be there. The negatives outweigh the positives.

Edit: Fixed spelling mistake

Last edited by jfoobar; 10-14-18 at 10:07 AM.
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Old 10-14-18, 08:55 AM
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

Originally Posted by Sdallnct View Post
If the full time, dedicated, trained resource officer couldnít (or would not) stop a shooter how do we expect a teacher to?
This statement insinuates we shouldn't even bother with police. A trained and armed officer didn't do it so why should we assume any would. Because in all these shootings he was the only one that failed to live up to his duty and his training. If the assumption is that the police will fail to protect us then that is all the more reason to have personal arms.

In the world of "what if's" that are being bandied about right now, what if she actually engaged the shooter? The sad truth is if bullets are flying, any distraction that can be thrown at the shooter will save lives and buy the police time to get there.

Resource officers are fully functioning police officers. The idea behind them is instead of waiting for police to come from 5 or 10 minutes away, have one on the grounds. If you take your saying at face value, why call the police anyway? The guy might chicken out. He may shoot the wrong kid. Someone may shoot him and take the gun.

There are 100 zillion scenarios. All they try to do is come up with plans which will increase the odds. Sometimes there are no-win scenarios.

For the umpteenth time. I agree with you on increased mental health screening since most of the shooters had previous displays of anti-social behavior. But as a Peace Officer and a court deputy, I can tell you that people that want guns bad enough, get them.
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Old 10-14-18, 11:13 AM
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

Originally Posted by JimRochester View Post
This statement insinuates we shouldn't even bother with police. A trained and armed officer didn't do it so why should we assume any would. Because in all these shootings he was the only one that failed to live up to his duty and his training. If the assumption is that the police will fail to protect us then that is all the more reason to have personal arms.

In the world of "what if's" that are being bandied about right now, what if she actually engaged the shooter? The sad truth is if bullets are flying, any distraction that can be thrown at the shooter will save lives and buy the police time to get there.

Resource officers are fully functioning police officers. The idea behind them is instead of waiting for police to come from 5 or 10 minutes away, have one on the grounds. If you take your saying at face value, why call the police anyway? The guy might chicken out. He may shoot the wrong kid. Someone may shoot him and take the gun.

There are 100 zillion scenarios. All they try to do is come up with plans which will increase the odds. Sometimes there are no-win scenarios.

For the umpteenth time. I agree with you on increased mental health screening since most of the shooters had previous displays of anti-social behavior. But as a Peace Officer and a court deputy, I can tell you that people that want guns bad enough, get them.
No. You are assuming something Iím not saying.

I realize a resource office is a police officer. My point is that is an extremely hard job. Exceedingly hard. Itís not something you can do ďonce in a whileĒ and be any good at it. You have to have extensive training and retraining. You have to live it every day.

Think of any professional job. To be any good you do it over and over. You live it every day. To suggest it would be any help at all to arm teachers is as was noted, a distraction. And I believe it would do vastly more harm than good. We have already had reports of teachers leaving their guns in public places.

Of course I agree with you on mental health. Glad we agree that to get a gun all should be screened. Many countries do this. Itís an excellent start.

And just because people that want guns bad enough get them, doesnít mean we shouldnít try to stop them.
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Old 10-15-18, 10:23 PM
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

I think you are conflating two different items, sdall. Gun training and police training are two distinct things. SRO training is yet another very distinct tract.

She didn't go to the police academy to become a cop and she doesn't intend to be one. She saw it as a means to an end. The police training may have given her additional skills that may benefit her, but it was really just a way for her to feel empowered to protect her students.

That said, I'm sure she will have to continue to undergo regular training. I'm assuming she is a sworn officer with her local police department.

I will agree with you if you want to argue that this was a way to circumvent the system by working within the system. However, it is within the system.
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Old 10-16-18, 05:16 AM
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

An officer needs to recertify every year, this includes things they do all the time or occasionally like handcuffing, pepper spray, baton and things they may never do like their firearm. Getting a firearm certification means you have gone though a multitude of shoot-no shoot scenarios and demonstrated good decision making skills as well as marksmanship. Any academy I have seen has what amounts to a massive video game. A full size, full wall projection of a scenario happening in front of you. You have to demonstrate correct procedures hundreds of times in order to pass. Much more than just hitting the target.

I can only speak for my area and for my state AFAIK. SRO is duty assigment not a job title. These are full time, or sometimes retired police officers who are stationed at the school. When school is in session they will handle any disruptions that may happen on a daily basis as well as various public relations. If there is a call for an accident or burglary or any crime, they will leave the school and go to the scene if they are closest officer. The only thing they don't do is the self initiated stuff like running radar. When school is not in session the officer is a regular working stiff doing eveything the other officers do. Some officers like it because it a M-F daytime gig versus the wheel and they like the interaction with the kids. Others find it a little dull. One of my schools has the police chief as the resource officer. If you need him on school days, he will meet you at the school. Since his job is largely administrative he found he can be more productive away from the office and he is minutes away if he is needed at the PD.
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Old 10-16-18, 06:50 AM
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

Originally Posted by Abob Teff View Post
I think you are conflating two different items, sdall. Gun training and police training are two distinct things. SRO training is yet another very distinct tract.

She didn't go to the police academy to become a cop and she doesn't intend to be one. She saw it as a means to an end. The police training may have given her additional skills that may benefit her, but it was really just a way for her to feel empowered to protect her students.

That said, I'm sure she will have to continue to undergo regular training. I'm assuming she is a sworn officer with her local police department.

I will agree with you if you want to argue that this was a way to circumvent the system by working within the system. However, it is within the system.
I donít think I am. I think arming teachers and administrators is moronic and should not be allowed. Regardless of training. If my kids were still of that age Iíd never let them attend a school where teachers are armed. Just like I wouldnít let them have sleep overs at friends whose parents had guns.

There is about a 100x more bad that can happen than good. As noted itís a distraction to deflect from anything that could actually help.
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Old 11-27-18, 05:24 AM
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

ALBANY - Prospective handgun owners in New York could be required to turn over the passwords to their major social-media accounts for a search if a newly introduced bill becomes law.
The bill from Sen. Kevin Parker, D-Brooklyn, would require all gun-permit applicants to allow their social-media accounts and search-engine history to be scrutinized for hateful slurs and terroristic threats prior to receiving a handgun permit or having one renewed in New York.
If approved, the bill would allow an investigating officer — in most cases, a county judge — to obtain "any log-in name, password or other means" necessary to review the applicant's social media accounts and search history.
Parker introduced the bill in response to the Oct. 27 shooting at the Tree of Life Congregation Synagogue in Pittsburgh, which left 11 people dead.
The suspected shooter had published numerous anti-Semitic posts on social media ahead of his deadly rampage.

"Although New York State has some of the strictest gun laws in the country, we can no longer provide protection to gun owners at the expense of the rest of society," Parker wrote in a memo attached to the bill.
Three years of review
The bill would apply to those seeking or renewing a handgun permit as well as those renewing a registration for an assault-style rifle that was owned prior to the SAFE Act's passage in 2013, according to Parker.
If signed into law, up to three years of social-media posts and one year of search history would be open to scrutiny.

Only four social-media sites or apps (Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and Snapchat) and three search engines (Google, Yahoo and Bing) would be subject to search.
In an interview, Parker said he believes the bill is necessary given a string of high-profile incidents where suspected shooters or bombers have posted disturbing things on social media that weren't discovered until after the fact.
He pointed to the Pittsburgh shooter and the Florida man who mailed bombs to Democratic politicians and CNN.
Parker said he believes the legislation fully complies with the Constitution. It would be up to State Police to determine how best to do the social-media searches and whether giving up a password would be necessary, he said.
"We're in a new age with new technology, and we need new rules," Parker said. "So we need to begin a conversation about the way that we monitor social media and use that in the context of giving out dangerous weapons that can in fact hurt or kill people."
Will it pass?
It's unclear whether the bill will get much consideration in Albany, where Democrats will gain control of the Senate in January after Republicans controlled the chamber for much of the past century.
Parker's bill did not have an Assembly sponsor as of Monday.
Tom King, president of the state Rifle and Pistol Association, said he believes the bill would violate First Amendment rights to free speech.
"This is the slippery search toward regulating all of our rights," King said. "Isn't posting on social media protected speech? This would put a chill on your voice and add a chill to your First Amendment rights."
Parker said he doesn't believe his bill goes too far.


I don't have a problem with this. In fact I think it's a good idea. Unlike mental issues which straddle a line of privacy and marginalization, free speech in fact is not completely protected. Your right's of hate or inciteful speech is greatly limited. It also doesn't open up to quite the level of abuse that mental health screening could. I can accuse of SD of being mentally unstable if I'm mad at him potentially slowing or stopping his permit. I can't falsely accuse him of hateful speech on these sites because the proof is right there.

The shortcomings?

We already have some pretty thorough background checks. The problems we've had locally or statewide have come from people utilizing straw buyers, or stolen firearms, not from people who slipped through the system. But a background check is a background check. As long as it doesn't delay the process I don't see a problem with it.

People can obviously hide their identity on social media making it somewhat easy to thwart.

Some of the shooters had been reported for violent or threatening posts and authorities failed to follow through or comprehend the severity. Checking won't do any good if they don't take threats seriously. This falls under the category of not needing new laws until you are enforcing the old laws.

Last edited by JimRochester; 11-27-18 at 06:09 AM.
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Old 11-27-18, 07:21 AM
  #1225  
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

Originally Posted by JimRochester View Post
ALBANY - Prospective handgun owners in New York could be required to turn over the passwords to their major social-media accounts for a search if a newly introduced bill becomes law.
I don't have a problem with this. In fact I think it's a good idea. Unlike mental issues which straddle a line of privacy and marginalization, free speech in fact is not completely protected.
Actually, speech only accessible via a password-protected account is very much protected speech, not from the First Amendment but from the Fourth. As an agent of the government, even if I know that you specifically committed some heinous crime and know that your Facebook account contains evidence of that crime and/or was used in furtherance of it, I still have to get a particularized search warrant based on facts establishing probable cause as reviewed and signed by a judge.

In this case, they expect the government to be able to gain access to the same account based on none of this, only as a coercive roadblock to being able to exercise what the Supreme Court has already made quite clear is a Constitutional right and affecting individuals for which the government has no knowledge or even reasonable suspicion did anything wrong at all.

The law, if passed, will be injuncted almost immediately and then tossed out by the first Federal judge that reviews it.

We already have some pretty thorough background checks. The problems we've had locally or statewide have come from people utilizing straw buyers, or stolen firearms, not from people who slipped through the system.
I agree that in this post-Heller world, going after the illegal gun market is the most effective way to actually save lives, but this isn't the way to do it.
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