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You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

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You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

Old 07-22-18, 09:48 AM
  #1151  
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

Originally Posted by Breakfast with Girls View Post
As I understand from the article, McGlockton began backing away when Drejka pulled a gun. In my mind, that's when Drejka became the aggressor.
A video of the incident can be viewed here: A video of the incident can be viewed here.

<iframe width="590" height="332" src="http://launch.newsinc.com/?type=VideoPlayer/Single&widgetId=1&trackingGroup=69016&playlistId=19132&siteSection=tbtimes&videoId=33971198" frameborder="no" scrolling="no" noresize marginwidth="0" marginheight="0" allowfullscreen webkitallowfullscreen mozallowfullscreen></iframe>

Last edited by Josh-da-man; 07-22-18 at 09:53 AM.
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Old 07-22-18, 11:54 AM
  #1152  
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

"Just because you can doesn’t mean you should," Gualtieri said at the start of a news conference on the case.
I agree. I'm not saying he was right. I'm saying that within the confines of the law it was probably legal. Also I outlined what the defense will look at. Some people get beer balls when they are armed. However the legal justification in most cases is "did you believe you or someone's life was in danger". If you can show you feared for the safety of you or another, it becomes a self defense argument.

In these chicken and egg scenarios, everyone is right and everyone is wrong. I would not get into a screaming match over a parking space. Someone yells at me; "you know, you're right. I shouldn't have parked there. I'm sorry." To someone else; "dude, that's not really a spot, people can't get by."

Once you escalate, it is very difficult to de-escalate. The burden falls on the escalator to show that level of altercation was necessary. In Florida there is no burden whatsoever to try and de-escalate before delivering deadly force according to the article.
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Old 07-22-18, 11:55 AM
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

Originally Posted by Breakfast with Girls View Post
As I understand from the article, McGlockton began backing away when Drejka pulled a gun. In my mind, that's when Drejka became the aggressor.
This.

And no arguing over a bar stool is no better.

And again (and again) why do some feel ONLY a gun van be used for self protection? Again, seems at least reasonable that pepper spray would have been just an effective against an unarmed person.

Seriously “you pushed me. That now gives me the right to kill you.”. No wonder so few really care about school shooting to actually do something about it. If I shot and killed every kid that shoved me...damnnnn
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Old 07-22-18, 12:00 PM
  #1154  
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

Originally Posted by Sdallnct View Post
This.

And no arguing over a bar stool is no better.
I didn't say it was. I was explaining how the law works. If you are on the ground it is a logical fear that your safety is in peril. That is what the law requires.

As I just stated, in Florida, even though he backed away, it doesn't matter. In states without the SYG law. Just the simple act of appearing to back up doesn't automatically mean the altercation was over. Guys that are fighting aren't always moving forward and a defense attorney will show that.
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Old 07-22-18, 12:40 PM
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

Originally Posted by JimRochester View Post
I didn't say it was. I was explaining how the law works. If you are on the ground it is a logical fear that your safety is in peril. That is what the law requires.

As I just stated, in Florida, even though he backed away, it doesn't matter. In states without the SYG law. Just the simple act of appearing to back up doesn't automatically mean the altercation was over. Guys that are fighting aren't always moving forward and a defense attorney will show that.
I know you didn’t. But it is my point. How did we a) get to a point that a simple arguement gets someone killed, and b) that’s perfectly legal?

Of course I believe in self defense. No one should “legally” just have to stand there and get the shit beat out of them.

But making such laws is the same as the zero tollerance laws we love to rail about. The kid that make a gun out of his fingers and gets suspended. Or the mother that includes 2 asperine in daughters lunch and gets suspended.

Yes, these SYG laws may help some. But how many give a license to others where not needed? Why do we need a law? Shouldn’t each case stand on its own?
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Old 07-22-18, 12:58 PM
  #1156  
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

Originally Posted by Sdallnct View Post
Yes, these SYG laws may help some. But how many give a license to others where not needed? Why do we need a law? Shouldn’t each case stand on its own?
Once again we are in agreement. The problem was at one point the pendulum was so far the other way, if you couldn't outrun your attacker you were guilty. Even people that didn't leave their own house to the intruder were guilty of not retreating. Now the pendulum has swung the other way. Guys like this and Zimmerman see it as an opportunity to show how big of a dick they have instead of just defending themselves.
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Old 07-22-18, 02:35 PM
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

Originally Posted by JimRochester View Post
Guys like this and Zimmerman see it as an opportunity to show how big of a dick they have instead of just defending themselves.
That seems entirely true. The saddest part of this may be that if the man had actually continued attacking rather than just shoving him, then he would likely still be alive today. I don’t normally bring race into things, but I really do suspect that had a black man shot a white father/husband in this case instead of the way it was, then he would be in jail now.
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Old 07-22-18, 02:56 PM
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

Originally Posted by Josh-da-man View Post
A video of the incident can be viewed here: A video of the incident can be viewed here.

<iframe width="590" height="332" src="http://launch.newsinc.com/?type=VideoPlayer/Single&widgetId=1&trackingGroup=69016&playlistId=19132&siteSection=tbtimes&videoId=33971198" frameborder="no" scrolling="no" noresize marginwidth="0" marginheight="0" allowfullscreen webkitallowfullscreen mozallowfullscreen></iframe>

I'm not seeing any video at that link - maybe it's my browser, or maybe they took the video down. I'm posting a YouTube version below. It cuts off before he fires the gun.

The guy who initiated the physical violence was way out of line. That doesn't mean that he deserved to die, but I can certainly understand why the shooter used his gun to defend himself.

I hope people will take this as a lesson that they should never try to settle a verbal argument by initiating physical violence. Also, don't illegally park in handicapped parking spaces.

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Old 07-22-18, 03:27 PM
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

If that shooting was legal, then the law is an ass.
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Old 07-22-18, 03:39 PM
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

Originally Posted by JasonX View Post
That seems entirely true. The saddest part of this may be that if the man had actually continued attacking rather than just shoving him, then he would likely still be alive today. I don’t normally bring race into things, but I really do suspect that had a black man shot a white father/husband in this case instead of the way it was, then he would be in jail now.
Or the cops would have shot him as soon as they rolled up.

I too was pushed over in middle school once. If I’d lived in Florida I could blown the kid away! Who knew??
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Old 07-22-18, 04:03 PM
  #1161  
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

Originally Posted by JimRochester View Post
Once again we are in agreement. The problem was at one point the pendulum was so far the other way, if you couldn't outrun your attacker you were guilty. Even people that didn't leave their own house to the intruder were guilty of not retreating. Now the pendulum has swung the other way. Guys like this and Zimmerman see it as an opportunity to show how big of a dick they have instead of just defending themselves.
While I’m glad we agree, we totally disagree on the cause.

I believe laws like this, especially in Florida, were NOT done because the pendulum swung to far. But because people felt if this law was in place it would sell more guns and support the pro-gun agenda/NRA.

These groups sold fear of very young, women, older, people being attacked by 250 pound lineman and unable to defend or run away.
Thus “a gun is the only solution”.

And yes I feel I can reasonably document that arguement tho doubt we would totally agree. It is a common tactic by the NRA to sell fear.
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Old 07-22-18, 04:48 PM
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

Originally Posted by JasonX View Post
I don’t normally bring race into things, but I really do suspect that had a black man shot a white father/husband in this case instead of the way it was, then he would be in jail now.
We had a local one where a black man shot and killed a white kid who was rummaging (read: stealing stuff) through cars. The man was charged but found not guilty because although he could have retreated the law did not require him to. The African American community felt he was only charged because he was black. And the white community felt he only got off because he was black. I personally was surprised when he was charged. I guess the issue was whether or not the kid was running away because one shot hit him in the back but at first the kid charged at him.
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Old 07-23-18, 09:20 AM
  #1163  
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

Toronto shooting: Gunman kills two in Greektown district

Two people have been killed and 12 others wounded, one of them critically, by a gunman who opened fire on a busy avenue in Canada's largest city.

One of the dead was a young woman, while the person critically injured in the attack in the Greektown district of Toronto is a girl of eight or nine.
No motive or anything known yet. All that's been released about the shooter is his age and gender.
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Old 07-23-18, 11:34 AM
  #1164  
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

Two of the Toronto victims are young women.

Leads me to think it might be another red-pill asshole.
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Old 07-23-18, 11:38 AM
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

My thoughts too.
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Old 07-23-18, 12:09 PM
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

As much as I'm glad there's one less red-pill asshole/incel/terrorist/whatever breathing here right now, I do wish they'd been able to take him alive like they did the van attack whacko back in the spring, among others, so they could at least attempt to make him answer for his crimes. But I guess we're stuck with whatever they find at his home or in his computer, social media, etc.

There is a shaky video of this piece of slime out there now, taken by a bystander last night. It's down a ways in this story:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toront...ting-1.4757409
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Old 07-23-18, 04:54 PM
  #1167  
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

https://news.vice.com/amp/en_ca/arti...faisal-hussain

Faisal Hussain.
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Old 07-23-18, 09:00 PM
  #1168  
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

Originally Posted by grundle View Post
I hope people will take this as a lesson that they should never try to settle a verbal argument by initiating physical violence. Also, don't illegally park in handicapped parking spaces.

The lesson should not be death.
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Old 07-23-18, 09:02 PM
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

I dunno Grundle, I’d rather have been armed and able to kill in that situation. I’m no damn victim like all the pussy SJWs and such.
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Old 07-23-18, 09:12 PM
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

Originally Posted by Josh-da-man View Post
Yep, and a statement from his family says that he had been suffering from "severe mental health problems". Very sad for the innocent victims. It's weird, I was visiting a friend in Toronto earlier last night, not in the Danforth area but only a little bit north of that. When I got home and saw the news I was like "Holy shit!"
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Old 07-24-18, 09:51 AM
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

Originally Posted by Trevor View Post
If that shooting was legal, then the law is an ass.
Either the law is ass or the sheriff/district attorney have a complete misunderstanding of it or, more likely, a combination of both.

https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/...ners-outraged/

This Shooting Should Sicken America’s Armed Citizens
By DAVID FRENCH
July 23, 2018 2:24 PM

If a person shoves you, you can shove back. You don't have the right to kill him.

In a world awash with disturbing videos and images, some stand out. Over the weekend, I saw a video that’s bothered me ever since. It’s grainy, and it’s not graphic, but it’s still sickening. It’s the short video of a man shooting another man in the chest. I’m not going to embed it in the article, but if you want to see it, you can watch it on this Good Morning America report.

In a nutshell, here’s what happened. A young woman, her boyfriend (Markeis McGlockton), and their young son pulled into a handicapped parking spot at a convenience store. While the car idled, McGlockton went inside to get snacks. While inside, a 47-year-old man named Michael Drejka (who reportedly has an odd history of initiating confrontations over parking spaces) approached the car and started an argument with McGlockton’s girlfriend, Britany Jacobs.

McGlockton walked outside, saw Drejka and Jacobs arguing and pushed Drejka to the ground. While McGlockton stood a few feet away, Drejka pulled a gun and shot McGlockton in the chest. McGlockton staggered away, into the convenience store, where he died in front of his son.

Incredibly, the Pinellas County sheriff, Bob Gualtieri, is refusing to charge Drejka, citing Florida’s stand-your-ground” law. At a news conference, Gualtieri said, “The law in the state of Florida today is that people have a right to stand their ground and have a right to defend themselves when they believe that they are in harm.” This is an inexcusably bad misstatement of the law. Drejka should be charged, and law-abiding Florida gun owners should demand accountability.

First, let’s deal with the applicable statute. The stand-your-ground law most assuredly does not grant citizens the right to use deadly force whenever they believe they are “in harm” (whatever that means). Here’s what Chapter 776 of the 2108 Florida statute, “Justifiable Use of Force,” says:

(1) A person is justified in using or threatening to use force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force. A person who uses or threatens to use force in accordance with this subsection does not have a duty to retreat before using or threatening to use such force.

(2) A person is justified in using or threatening to use deadly force if he or she reasonably believes that using or threatening to use such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony. A person who uses or threatens to use deadly force in accordance with this subsection does not have a duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground if the person using or threatening to use the deadly force is not engaged in a criminal activity and is in a place where he or she has a right to be.


Note that the statutes contemplates two very different circumstances, one where a person is authorized to use “force, except deadly force” and the other where “deadly force” is authorized. So, no, not every punch, kick, push, shove, or fear of “harm” grants a person the right to pull his gun and shoot. It just grants him the right to punch or push back. That’s it. It would be utterly absurd if every physical altercation immediately granted the victim a license to kill. That’s not the law.

Deadly force is authorized only in the most extreme circumstances, when a person “reasonably believes” that it’s “necessary” to prevent “imminent death or great bodily harm” or to prevent the “imminent commission of a forcible felony.” This is not a subjective test. In other words, the question isn’t whether Drejka believed he was in imminent danger of death, but rather whether his belief was reasonable.

He was shoved to the ground after angrily confronting a man’s girlfriend. If that circumstance grants Drejka the right to kill, then the first paragraph of the stand-your-ground law is meaningless. Any person could respond to physical contact with deadly force.

Compounding the injustice is Drejka’s own absurd conduct. An armed citizen should not be mall-copping his way through life, initiating confrontations. And that’s especially true if you’re a grown man interacting with a young woman. There are many, many men who (quite reasonably, I might add) will react physically if they see a strange man confronting their wife or girlfriend.

When you’re an armed citizen, you’re a protector, not an enforcer. If you want to be an enforcer, go to police academy and put on the uniform. Those who enforce the law are trained not just to know the law but also how to do so without escalating to violence — and the clear markings of their uniform signals to the world that they’re not hostile or threatening. They’re simply doing their job.

Justice demands that Michael Drejka face a jury of his peers.

This is a matter of sheer common sense. Imagine you walk out of convenience store and see a man arguing with your wife or girlfriend. If that person is a cop, you might be alarmed, but only in the most extreme circumstances would you think she was in any kind of imminent danger. It would be insane for McGlockton to walk up and shove a cop. If the person arguing with your girlfriend is a complete stranger, your level of alarm increases exponentially. You don’t know what might happen.

America’s armed citizens should be the most vigilant about enforcing not just the law but also the norms and values of gun ownership. And, on that score, the concealed-carry community is remarkably successful. The available evidence indicates that it’s more law-abiding even than the police. As a person who has long carried a gun, I know that these statistics are no accident. The concealed-carry community preaches and practices responsibility and prudence. It also seeks justice, and justice demands that Michael Drejka face a jury of his peers. Any other decision discredits stand-your-ground laws and cheapens human life. A shove should not be punishable by death.

Last edited by Red Dog; 07-24-18 at 10:18 AM.
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Old 07-24-18, 11:38 AM
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

The Trader Joe's employee who was killed was shot by an officer's bullet.

He said Corado was exiting the store as suspect Gene Evin Atkins was entering the store in the Los Angeles neighborhood of Silver Lake. That's when Corado was hit by LAPD gunfire, Moore said.
I wonder why they thought shooting into a store in broad daylight was a good idea? Aren't you supposed to be aware of what's behind those bullets?
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Old 07-24-18, 12:43 PM
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

Originally Posted by Draven View Post
The Trader Joe's employee who was killed was shot by an officer's bullet.



I wonder why they thought shooting into a store in broad daylight was a good idea? Aren't you supposed to be aware of what's behind those bullets?
Man, I hate that I'm in disagreement with you here. While I respect the LAPD, I have hate for the many injustices I have experienced and seen within my own family.

But that aside, consider the officers, in active shooting situation with this idiot, who was shooting out of the back of a car at them during a pursuit through a very busy part of town.

The idiot showed his desparation. a desparate man with an unknown amount of bullets and a semi-automatic weapon is shooting indiscriminately.

As an officer, I may have felt that getting this guy down, who was in the process of entering a store with what appeared to be a boat load of hostages, was the priority.

Did they use unnecessary force, the investigation will tell.

What I saw this morning, was a police chief who clearly stated a known fact. That one of his officers killed an innocent bystander. To my recollection, that hasn't happend before so quickly and publicly WRT to the LAPD.

And I agree with him, further investigation needs to be examined, and a resultant response is in order with potentially a change in policy. Being clear and truthful will help restore my faith in the entirety of the LAPD. And I have hope that Chief Moore will bring that to bear.
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Old 07-24-18, 01:12 PM
  #1174  
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

I don't necessarily blame officers for trying to end the situation. But I do know when I see things like cops in movies or on TV running out into a busy street to shoot at a fleeing car or suspect, I'm always like "there are office buildings back there".

I am just surprised they would open fire at the front of a busy store in the middle of the day.
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Old 07-24-18, 11:56 PM
  #1175  
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

At the same time there would be tons of lawsuits if they hadn't shot and the suspect began shooting hostages inside the store. It's a lose-lose for the LAPD. Their training tells them to stop a lethal threat and the officers had to make split second decisions.
What I was astounded by was the customer who casually strolled into the store right after the suspect did. Could he not hear the car wreck, sirens and gunshots all around him?
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