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You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

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You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

Old 04-11-18, 08:18 PM
  #926  
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

I was speaking with a state trooper on Saturday and one topic was permissible use of deadly force in self defense versus property defense. He told me that in Alaska self was but property wasn't except in relation to carjacking, burglary, and arson.

We're also a "castle doctrine" state. The resident or driver has no obligation to flee.

If one were to investigate a "bump in the night" and come across a thief who attacked rather than ran away, it would transform from a property to a self-defense situation immediately.

If the thief runs away let them go. If he advances menacingly, stop him.
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Old 04-11-18, 08:37 PM
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

Originally Posted by Sdallnct View Post
Yea, I live in Texas. You can be shot for talking bad about the Cowboys!
Well, some people just need killin'.

I'm generally in favor of the Castle Doctrine, but Texas has taken things much too far. Killing to defend property is just murder.
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Old 04-11-18, 08:48 PM
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_5...b06487677650c2

Vermont signed some new regulation....good for
Them/
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Old 04-11-18, 09:00 PM
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

Originally Posted by AGuyNamedMike View Post
IIf the thief runs away let them go. If he advances menacingly, stop him.
So like others were saying, unless the thief turns his attention to you and becomes an attacker, gunning them down is murder. A thief trying to flee is still just a thief.
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Old 04-11-18, 09:07 PM
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

Originally Posted by Sdallnct View Post
I ran across a story about how a guy with a legal permit to carry shot a dude when he was car jacked. The “kid” died. That I’m sure was perfectly legal. And who knows maybe the carjacker was armed. But I just can’t imagine shooting someone over a car. No one should die over a car.
Then don't jack cars.

I can understand using lethal force on a carjacker. It's a confrontational act with the implicit threat of violence. Most, if they were unarmed, would probably run away like a frightened rabbit once you pull out the gun.
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Old 04-11-18, 09:34 PM
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

Another jerk off who shouldn't have a gun.

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Old 04-12-18, 05:05 AM
  #932  
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

Originally Posted by hdnmickey View Post
So like others were saying, unless the thief turns his attention to you and becomes an attacker, gunning them down is murder. A thief trying to flee is still just a thief.
Under some circumstances it is allowed. It depends on what is known about the suspect. The rules are more liberal for police. To use an extreme case, the Boston bomber brothers. You encounter them in your yard. You exchange some gunfire. They turn to retreat and run away. Because you know they represent an imminent danger to you, your family and the community at large if they get away, and can give demonstrable proof as such, pursuing or continuing to shoot can be justified. Different jurisdictions have different levels of rules but you get the idea. The other extreme is the kid rummaging through your unlocked car. A simple thief. He turns to run you better let him. If you pursue and it ends up in gunfire, you could be in trouble for escalating a situation that had already de-escalated and posed no further danger.

So the simple act of chasing a suspect or shooting him in the back is not in and of itself is not immediately chargeable. However as the immediate threat to yourself or your family dissipates, the extenuating circumstances need to increase for it to be justified.
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Old 04-12-18, 06:59 AM
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

Originally Posted by JimRochester View Post
Under some circumstances it is allowed. It depends on what is known about the suspect. The rules are more liberal for police. To use an extreme case, the Boston bomber brothers. You encounter them in your yard. You exchange some gunfire. They turn to retreat and run away. Because you know they represent an imminent danger to you, your family and the community at large if they get away, and can give demonstrable proof as such, pursuing or continuing to shoot can be justified.
Absolutely, but note that he did say "thief".

What you are describing was basically the basis for Tennessee v. Garner, one of the two most decisions that form the basis for when police (and generally private citizens as well) can and cannot use deadly force. In that case, a Memphis police officer shot a fleeing burglar basically just to stop him from getting away. SCOTUS ruled against the officer, thankfully.
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Old 04-12-18, 07:39 AM
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

Originally Posted by JimRochester View Post
A simple thief. He turns to run you better let him. If you pursue and it ends up in gunfire, you could be in trouble for escalating a situation that had already de-escalated and posed no further danger.
Semi-serious question: What charges are levied if your dog pursues the thief and brings him/her down while still on your property?

(More serious) What if the thief brandished a gun or even fires in your direction before turning away? How do you know that you and your family still aren't in imminent danger and that the dangerous criminal has left? Or is alone? Would the owner be blamed for attempting to neutralize the threat completely?

I've been in this situation, and we didn't feel safe until after 5-6 cruisers showed up 20 minutes later. The perpetrator had broken into a car, cut the back porch screen, and tried to get in through a window ( where I discovered him). We didn't feel safe for weeks after.

I can understand if the criminal is fleeing in a vehicle or running down the driveway into the road, but what if he just disappears around the side of the house? Would that be an extenuating circumstance?
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Old 04-12-18, 08:22 AM
  #935  
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

Originally Posted by jfoobar View Post
Absolutely, but note that he did say "thief".

What you are describing was basically the basis for Tennessee v. Garner, one of the two most decisions that form the basis for when police (and generally private citizens as well) can and cannot use deadly force. In that case, a Memphis police officer shot a fleeing burglar basically just to stop him from getting away. SCOTUS ruled against the officer, thankfully.
Exactly. As Dan posted, in scenarios where somebody is leaving the scene to attack another person, they are not a thief and not what was being discussed.
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Old 04-12-18, 10:46 AM
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

But are you not allowed to pursue a thief? The description said that if someone pursues and it escalates in gunfire, the owner can be prosecuted. What if the thief being pursued is the one initiating the violence? Shouldn't that absolve the owner? Or should the owner not attempt to recover his/her stolen property?

I occasionally read news reports in which burglars and thieves are discovered by homeowners and held at gunpoint until police arrive. Or they are physically subdued. Or their getaway vehicle is followed by the owner or a neighbor. Any of those situations could escalate into violence and/or gunfire.
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Old 04-12-18, 11:10 AM
  #937  
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

Originally Posted by jfoobar View Post
Absolutely, but note that he did say "thief".

What you are describing was basically the basis for Tennessee v. Garner, one of the two most decisions that form the basis for when police (and generally private citizens as well) can and cannot use deadly force. In that case, a Memphis police officer shot a fleeing burglar basically just to stop him from getting away. SCOTUS ruled against the officer, thankfully.
It is very complicated and varies by state and by prosecutor.

But I agree with the general idea that deadly force should only be used to prevent death or harm to you or others. Not to protect property.
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Old 04-12-18, 02:26 PM
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

There are certainly thousands of variables and circumstances. I used two examples at different ends of the spectrum. And laws in different areas vary as to whether you are allowed to pursue property. Way too much to explain in one paragraph. But the takeaway is just because someone was shot in the back or shot while trying to run away doesn't automatically make it unlawful just as shooting someone on your property isn't automatically lawful.
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Old 04-12-18, 03:43 PM
  #939  
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

Originally Posted by inri222 View Post
Another jerk off who shouldn't have a gun.

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Or simply better training, but yes that was idiotic and potentially tragic.
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Old 04-13-18, 01:38 AM
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

Originally Posted by AGuyNamedMike View Post
I was speaking with a state trooper on Saturday and one topic was permissible use of deadly force in self defense versus property defense. He told me that in Alaska self was but property wasn't except in relation to carjacking, burglary, and arson.

We're also a "castle doctrine" state. The resident or driver has no obligation to flee.

If one were to investigate a "bump in the night" and come across a thief who attacked rather than ran away, it would transform from a property to a self-defense situation immediately.

If the thief runs away let them go. If he advances menacingly, stop him.

In Alaska, a person who is carjacked could be left all alone, in subfreezing weather, tens of miles from the nearest person or phone. He or she could freeze to death.
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Old 04-13-18, 11:43 AM
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

Reading is Fundamental.

"except in relation to carjacking, burglary, and arson"
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Old 04-18-18, 07:03 PM
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry...b029ebe0204cda

Love how the article says “legal” gun.

How in God’s name can it be legal to leave your gun where a three year old can get it?

This is but one reason much more regulation is needed. “Legal” gun owner has not kept their own shop clean.

Hello Captain Obvious/Understatement,

“A loaded weapon with children in the back seat: real careless act,” Merrillville police Chief Joe Petruch told WMAQ. “I hope she survives the gunshot wound.”

He was charged with “child endangerment”? There should be a dozen other charges available.
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Old 04-18-18, 09:27 PM
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

Wait, is the toddler dangerous or is the gun? I though it was ALWAYS the shooter, and never the tool that makes it ridiculously easy for a 3-year old to critically injure their mother.
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Old 04-19-18, 07:40 AM
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

Yup, as predicted, the gun rights crowd has survived another mass shooting with only a few small state law wounds in states generally regarded as gun-unfriendly to begin with:

http://news.gallup.com/poll/232487/g...p-problem.aspx

Expect young people to mobilize again after the next substantial school shooting, however. Parkland did bring about change, just not substantial legislative change.
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Old 04-20-18, 10:03 AM
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

1 injured in shooting at Florida high school, authorities say
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Old 04-20-18, 10:46 AM
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...oom/514855002/

Yea...lets arm teachers. Such a good idea....(sarcastic).
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Old 04-20-18, 11:15 AM
  #947  
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

Originally Posted by Sdallnct View Post
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...oom/514855002/

Yea...lets arm teachers. Such a good idea....(sarcastic).
No longer surprised (same story posted a week ago)

Originally Posted by Sdallnct View Post
I'm actually surprised it took this long for something to happen.
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Old 04-20-18, 01:38 PM
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

Oops...my bad....lol.
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Old 04-20-18, 02:10 PM
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

Originally Posted by Sdallnct View Post
Love how the article says “legal” gun.

How in God’s name can it be legal to leave your gun where a three year old can get it?
"The 21-year-old father of the 3-year-old girl who accidentally shot her pregnant mother faces felony charges for allegedly leaving his loaded gun in the car with his two young children when he went inside a clothing store....The 21-year-old father of the 3-year-old girl who accidentally shot her pregnant mother faces felony charges for allegedly leaving his loaded gun in the car with his two young children when he went inside a clothing store."

Sounds like he is facing several charges.
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Old 04-20-18, 03:27 PM
  #950  
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

Originally Posted by Sdallnct View Post
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...oom/514855002/

Yea...lets arm teachers. Such a good idea....(sarcastic).
Complete agreement. Teachers should be teaching and in the case of an emergency herding the students to safety, not packing heat. The only armed people in the building should be LE and designated (and appropriately trained) security personnel.
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