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Religion, Politics and World Events They make great dinner conversation, don't you think? plus Political Film

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Old 08-05-17, 11:24 PM   #576
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

Yeah, you gotta remember that the former Kenyan Mooslim President was coming for everybody's guns, so sales shot up when he was in office.

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Old 08-12-17, 09:06 AM   #577
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

A follow-up to this





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Old 10-02-17, 03:55 AM   #578
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun... Unless of course the bad guy is on the 32nd floor with an automatic weapon. That's just collateral damage for our "freedoms" I guess.
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Old 10-02-17, 08:20 AM   #579
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

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Originally Posted by JTH182 View Post
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun... Unless of course the bad guy is on the 32nd floor with an automatic weapon. That's just collateral damage for our "freedoms" I guess.
Yes, I want to see how gun nuts spin this. How does owning and carrying a weapon protect you from a sudden sniper attack from the 32nd floor? How do guns protect you period? Are these magic guns that can detect a sudden and random shooting, then aim and fire themselves?
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Old 10-02-17, 10:14 AM   #580
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

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Originally Posted by JTH182 View Post
The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun... Unless of course the bad guy is on the 32nd floor with an automatic weapon. That's just collateral damage for our "freedoms" I guess.
No, that's why good guys gotta carry around high-powered sniper-rifles. Duh.
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Old 10-02-17, 10:30 AM   #581
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

Those sorts of people's understanding of the concept of self-defense with a weapon comes fro movies and TV where John Wayne, John Wu, or John Wick are able to dodge bullets, and perform magic feats of strength instantly when confronted, without hesitation or collateral damage. Their sense of reality is so fucked up that even a situation like this is beyond their reasoning.
They just imagine themselves running to the hotel, kicking in the door, and shooting the black guy in the head. No logic will change these people.
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Old 10-02-17, 11:27 AM   #582
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

This needs to be posted again...



It's actually gone up for the US since this graph - the US has about 10 gun deaths per 100K people annually, in comparison, the UK has .23 (that's POINT 23) gun death per 100K.

We should be embarrassed and shamed.
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Old 10-02-17, 11:33 AM   #583
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

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That's just collateral damage for our "freedoms" I guess.
That's exactly what I thought of this morning. All those Las Vegas deaths are just a bi-product of "gun freedom".

Would have this guy taken his frustrations out some other way? Or by illegally acquiring guns? Maybe. Probably. If you are sure of the answer to that, you're an idiot. But I think we should experiment with gun control until we find a solution.
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Old 10-02-17, 11:36 AM   #584
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

I wonder what the chart would look like if you remove gang murders?
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Old 10-02-17, 11:41 AM   #585
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

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I wonder what the chart would look like if you remove gang murders?
Do gang murders not deserve to be counted as gun violence?
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Old 10-02-17, 11:46 AM   #586
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

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Do gang murders not deserve to be counted as gun violence?
When our numbers are so much higher than every other country, a breakdown on the major causes would be helpful, yes. Many times suicides are included on lists like this too.
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Old 10-02-17, 11:49 AM   #587
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

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Originally Posted by PerryD View Post
When our numbers are so much higher than every other country, a breakdown on the major causes would be helpful, yes. Many times suicides are included on lists like this too.
Presumably other countries also have similar kinds of violence as we do and you can break their numbers down too. It just seems odd to me that youíd single out gang violence, as if that sort of violence isnít something that should bother us? Perhaps Iím misunderstanding your intention.
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Old 10-02-17, 11:53 AM   #588
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

If only everyone in the audience had a sniper rifle too. We could have the death count at 5000.
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Old 10-02-17, 11:56 AM   #589
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

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Presumably other countries also have similar kinds of violence as we do and you can break their numbers down too. It just seems odd to me that youíd single out gang violence, as if that sort of violence isnít something that should bother us? Perhaps Iím misunderstanding your intention.
Living near Chicago, I see reports of gun homicides on a daily basis. The vast vast majority is gang violence. A national chart like that, I don't know if the gang murders make up 25%, 50% or 75%, so I asked the question to understand if the majority of gun homicides from gang violence? And once we remove a single cause, then do our numbers fall more in line with other countries?

Then, yes, we can address gang violence in many ways, with the understanding that almost none of the firearms they own are legal.
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Old 10-02-17, 11:57 AM   #590
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

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Old 10-02-17, 12:09 PM   #591
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

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Originally Posted by PerryD View Post
I wonder what the chart would look like if you remove gang murders?
I wonder what the chart would look like if Congress hadn't prevented the CDC from actually gathering statistics re: gun deaths. There's no problem if there's no data to support the fact that there's a problem!
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Old 10-02-17, 12:14 PM   #592
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

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I wonder what the chart would look like if you remove gang murders?
Other countries have gangs as well. If you remove gang murders from ALL countries, the chart will look the same.
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Old 10-02-17, 12:25 PM   #593
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

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I wonder what the chart would look like if Congress hadn't prevented the CDC from actually gathering statistics re: gun deaths. There's no problem if there's no data to support the fact that there's a problem!
This.

How we have allowed the gun industry to dictate that the CDC cannot study this is beyond me.

It would be like drug manufacturers telling the CDC they are not allowed to collect data on people taking their drugs. We would never stand for that.
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Old 10-02-17, 12:25 PM   #594
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

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When our numbers are so much higher than every other country, a breakdown on the major causes would be helpful, yes. Many times suicides are included on lists like this too.
Those numbers are similar to a CDC report from a couple years back that segments out suicides from homicides. The graph itself does explicitly state 'homicide', FWIW.

The FBI has a breakdown of gun homicide causes for 2013. Of firearm homicides with a determined cause, 18% are gangland killings / juvenile gang killings.
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Old 10-02-17, 12:35 PM   #595
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

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Originally Posted by mmconhea View Post
Those sorts of people's understanding of the concept of self-defense with a weapon comes fro movies and TV where John Wayne, John Wu, or John Wick are able to dodge bullets, and perform magic feats of strength instantly when confronted, without hesitation or collateral damage. Their sense of reality is so fucked up that even a situation like this is beyond their reasoning.
They just imagine themselves running to the hotel, kicking in the door, and shooting the black guy in the head. No logic will change these people.
Generalizations like this aren't allowed in the Politics Forum.
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Old 10-02-17, 12:41 PM   #596
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

My master thesis on why we have so much violence in America.

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For no other reason than to amuse myself I'm going to attempt to explain my master theory of Americans, Guns, and Violence.

I was researching California history and I came across some information about old west gunfights that directed me toward a book written in the 1990's titled No Duty to Retreat. The book is basically about violence in America and how it is rooted in a fundamental difference between the English Common Law and the American legal system as it applies to self defense.

(Note to all you lawyers, I'm not a lawyer and I'm working from memory so fuck off if I make a few mistakes. I'm trying to make a larger point.)

English Common Law dates to the 12-century AD. In regard to self defense it contains an obligation to retreat if threatened with physical violence. That is to say a person who fears for his life for threat of violence has a duty to retreat from the threat, meaning back away, run, tell someone, hide, etc. It's actually worded that if a man kills another man and claims sell defense the burden falls on that man to prove in court that he "retreated until his back was against the wall." If the man fails to do so he will be found guilty of murder.

The reason for this rule is evidently due to the Crown demanding full authority in all things. It wasn't up to a threatened individual to decide to fight back. It was his job to report to the Crown so that the Crown could rule in the situation. If you killed in self defense it was often very hard to prove you had met the "duty to retreat" condition. Having a law like this greatly effects the culture.

Fast forward to the American Revolution. America is now free of England. But we do like England's legal system and we take the entirety of Common Law and make it the foundation of our own legal system. The defining characteristic of the Common Law is that it is based on precedent. Almost immediately after the Revolution American judges at the state level began handing down judgements that rebuffed duty to retreat. It seems to have been a combination of national pride, dislike of the English, distaste for monarchy, and the vastly different geography of America perched on the edge of a frontier. American judges began setting legal precedents in regards to pleas of self defense that said the man who felt threatened had no duty to retreat. It was deemed that the American citizen in fact had the right to stand his ground.

As time moved on the author points to the period of western expansion, the stuff we romanticize in Westerns, as being a period when no duty to retreat was the law of the land. Feuds and debts were settled with guns routinely. Everybody was drunk and armed and law enforcement and judges were often miles away.

Moving in to modern times "no duty to retreat" has been re-branded as "stand your ground". Stand Your Ground gets dragged into a national discussion and gets treated like it's a new thing that states are trying when in fact the precedents go back 250 years.

All of this is prologue to answering the age old question, "Why does gun violence happen more in America and not elsewhere?"

People often answer in a vague way and reply that America has a "gun culture" or a "different relationship to guns" than other countries. But I assert that the specific reason for this "relationship" is due to America being the one and only country (as far as I know) that deviates drastically from the Common Law in regards to self defense.

So my answer to, "Why is there so much gun violence and mass shooting in America and not elsewhere?" is:

1. It does happen elsewhere; just not as often or it happens in different ways. Mass killings, spree killings, massacres, genocide, ethnic cleansing, etc. have always occurred. It seems to be in our DNA as humans.

2. In addition to this "mass killing" DNA, Americans have additional DNA that comes from 250 years of legal precedent that differs from most of the rest of the world. A legal precedent that says we have no duty to retreat. It's been the law of the land since our founding and it's become, perhaps unconsciously, a part of the national character. It has done so to such a degree that a mere description of the "duty to retreat" law from the English Common Law would make the average American wince, "You mean to say that if I'm on my own land and some guy pulls a gun on me I have to retreat? And if I kill him to save my ass I'm going to be a murderer? What in the FUCK?!"
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Old 10-02-17, 01:19 PM   #597
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

Quote:
Number of Americans killed on battlefields in all wars in history:

1,396,733

Killed by firearms in the US since 1968:

1,516,863

That's a pretty incredible stat.
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Old 10-02-17, 09:34 PM   #598
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

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Originally Posted by Supermallet View Post
Do gang murders not deserve to be counted as gun violence?
So much for "black on black" crime, then...
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Old 10-02-17, 09:38 PM   #599
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

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That's a pretty incredible stat.
I do wonder what proportion of that stat is criminals shot.
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Old 10-03-17, 12:36 AM   #600
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Re: You say Gun control i say gun rights let's call the whole thing off discussion

Quote:
Number of Americans killed on battlefields in all wars in history:

1,396,733

Killed by firearms in the US since 1968:

1,516,863
I assume that includes suicides. Suicide rates are about twice homicide rates. I assume that probably more or less holds for gun related suicides and homicides.
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