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Religion, Politics and World Events They make great dinner conversation, don't you think? plus Political Film

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Old 07-02-15, 08:36 PM   #51
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Re: The One and Only Civil Seizure thread

Certainly legislature also, no doubt about that. My snarky comment was more related to the cash forfeitures that we are seeing these days, where the money (in most places, but not all), goes back to law enforcement.

I'd be curious to see stats from cash found in traffic stop searches, say over $1000 or $2000, and what the seizure rate is. Not even sure they'd keep stats like that, but it would be interesting to know.
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Old 07-10-15, 05:50 PM   #52
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Re: The One and Only Civil Seizure thread

http://www.forbes.com/sites/institut...single-arrest/

Florida Cops Laundered Millions For Drug Cartels, Failed To Make A Single Arrest


Good article that goes into the civil seizure bullshit.

Here's a snippet

Quote:
Duane Pottorff, the chief of law enforcement at the Glades County Sheriff’s Office, was remarkably candid about his agency’s motivations in joining the task force: “We thought this was a chance to bring in more revenue.” “Forfeiture money allowed us to have resources that normally we wouldn’t have,” including “patrol cars, vests, guns for the deputies, ammunition, all this, the training room, the training equipment is all paid with forfeiture funds,” he added.
Given that this was done for known drug cartels, etc. the seizure is pretty understandable. But not a single arrest. That tells me that all they were really interested in was bringing in more money. I get that every government job and otherwise doesn't think they have enough money to do their jobs, but it seems like running a fundraiser rather than actually protecting and serving isn't how I would want my taxes to be spent.
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Old 07-10-15, 08:55 PM   #53
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Re: The One and Only Civil Seizure thread

Why bother making an arrest, most of the bad stuff was probably happening far away from them anyway. All it does is put them at risk, and frankly, this way keeps the gravy train rolling.
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Old 07-10-15, 08:56 PM   #54
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Re: The One and Only Civil Seizure thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by kvrdave View Post

Florida Cops Laundered Millions For Drug Cartels, Failed To Make A Single Arrest
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Old 07-10-15, 11:21 PM   #55
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Re: The One and Only Civil Seizure thread

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Originally Posted by kvrdave View Post
http://www.forbes.com/sites/institut...single-arrest/

Florida Cops Laundered Millions For Drug Cartels, Failed To Make A Single Arrest


Good article that goes into the civil seizure bullshit.

Here's a snippet



Given that this was done for known drug cartels, etc. the seizure is pretty understandable. But not a single arrest. That tells me that all they were really interested in was bringing in more money. I get that every government job and otherwise doesn't think they have enough money to do their jobs, but it seems like running a fundraiser rather than actually protecting and serving isn't how I would want my taxes to be spent.
If you arrest too many, the source of the money will dry up. At what point does this just start to look like one cartel taking a percentage from another cartel for the right to work on their turf?
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Old 07-11-15, 12:26 PM   #56
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Re: The One and Only Civil Seizure thread

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Originally Posted by dave-o View Post
If you arrest too many, the source of the money will dry up. At what point does this just start to look like one cartel taking a percentage from another cartel for the right to work on their turf?
That is all it appears to be. "We want our cut of your drug money."
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Old 07-13-15, 02:08 PM   #57
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Re: The One and Only Civil Seizure thread

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/america...oney-1.2760736

An article and a news report from Canada. They apparently issued a warning to citizens going to the US to not carry much cash because our police have a way of stealing it from our Canadian pals just like they do to the rest of us.

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Old 07-14-15, 03:54 PM   #58
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Re: The One and Only Civil Seizure thread

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Originally Posted by kvrdave View Post
An article and a news report from Canada. They apparently issued a warning to citizens going to the US to not carry much cash because our police have a way of stealing it from our Canadian pals just like they do to the rest of us.
But cash can be used to buy drugs. If someone can prove that the cash in their wallet isn't going to be used to buy drugs, they have nothing to worry about.
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Old 07-14-15, 04:07 PM   #59
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Re: The One and Only Civil Seizure thread

Whew. I'm glad they don't have any civil forfeiture in Canada.
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Old 07-14-15, 05:00 PM   #60
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Re: The One and Only Civil Seizure thread

Civil seizure is a problem. And I understand the Canadian government's warning. Remember that we have an economy that's 10x larger. And a lot of misunderstanding and over-policing of criminal activity. It might be a shock for any Canadian to know the stuff we do in law enforcement.

Can we get that story from anyone other than RT? RT is "Russia Today". It's basically Fox News for Russia. And it's largely funded by the Russian government. In the same way that Fox News' goal is anti-Democrat propaganda, Russia Today is anti-American propaganda. They're doing everything they can to legitimize their network. But it's just as heavy-handed as Fox News.
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Old 07-14-15, 05:09 PM   #61
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Re: The One and Only Civil Seizure thread

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Originally Posted by Troy Stiffler View Post
Can we get that story from anyone other than RT? RT is "Russia Today". It's basically Fox News for Russia. And it's largely funded by the Russian government. In the same way that Fox News' goal is anti-Democrat propaganda, Russia Today is anti-American propaganda. They're doing everything they can to legitimize their network. But it's just as heavy-handed as Fox News.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/america...oney-1.2760736

Quote:
So, for any law-abiding Canadian thinking about an American road trip, here’s some non-official advice:

Avoid long chats if you’re pulled over. Answer questions politely and concisely, then persistently ask if you are free to go.

Don’t leave litter on the vehicle floor, especially energy drink cans.

Don’t use air or breath fresheners; they could be interpreted as an attempt to mask the smell of drugs.

Don’t be too talkative. Don’t be too quiet. Try not to wear expensive designer clothes. Don’t have tinted windows.

And for heaven’s sake, don’t consent to a search if you are carrying a big roll of legitimate cash.

As the Canadian government notes, there is no law against carrying it here or any legal limit on how much you can carry. But if you’re on an American roadway with a full wallet, in the eyes of thousands of cash-hungry cops you’re a rolling ATM.
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Old 07-14-15, 05:41 PM   #62
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Re: The One and Only Civil Seizure thread

Here are some interesting points (in anecdotal defense of the police)...

Quote:
Half of the seizures, according to the Post, were below $8,800. Only a sixth of those who had money taken from them pursued its return.
I'm going to assume that there are times when people legitimately carry more than $8800. I've had more cash than that in my possession before. But I'm a "normal guy", and I've known maybe 3 or 4 people who have ever carried that much cash before. And I'm all for being understanding of others, holding skepticism, and assuming there's a reason for this. I just have a skepticism towards the accusation that cops are funding themselves by purposely taking cash from unassuming everyday people. So I have to side with the police and trust their judgement. I think the statistics are very interesting ($2.5B in 13 years). But I'm not so quick to assume the police weren't using proper judgement.

Even the guy who said he had $75k in cash that he was taking to purchase a restaurant. From me, a guy who does "small business" all day - that is insanely stupid. So much that I find it hard to believe it wasn't part of a "story". And I'm very well-versed in handling "small business" transactions. You go to the place, look at it, and then run to the bank and wire the money. Pay a $500 escrow fee if there's a trust issue. No wonder the guy got pulled over - I'd be crazy-distracted if I had $75k cash on me and driving to some shady exchange for a restaurant purchase.

Quote:
In places like Tijuana, police don’t make any pretense about this sort of thing. Here in the U.S., though, it’s dressed up in terms like “interdiction and forfeiture,” or “the equitable sharing program.”
Nope. I'm out. Comparing American police, who have legitimate concerns about average citizens carrying large sums of cash (50% chance of it being over $8800) to Tijuana non-English speaking police who pull over college kids and family vacationers with US plates and force them to hand over "whatever is in their wallets". Haha. The CBC may be "credible". But that article is a farce.

Reading that does open me up to something: I never understood that level of seizures before. I'm not a criminal. And I've never been pulled over for suspicious activity. I'm probably the least suspicious guy you'll ever meet. But I have had large amounts of cash on me before (usually with a matching invoice and a legitimate and level-headed story). After looking at this, I would probably never handle that kind of cash again.
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Old 07-14-15, 06:22 PM   #63
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Re: The One and Only Civil Seizure thread

I'm sort of concerned that I can't drive around with $50,000 in cash on me if I want to. Is having cash automatically indicative of being guilty of something?
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Old 07-14-15, 06:30 PM   #64
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Re: The One and Only Civil Seizure thread

You can drive around with $50K.

Just don't hang around the border. That's just the utmost dumbest thing I've ever heard of doing. Well, almost. Striking a deal with Iran would be the dumbest.

You could drive to 99% of all cities in the US with hundreds of thousands of dollars, and you'd be just fine. You would encounter no problems from police (or citizens).

But when you get to an area that is INFAMOUS FOR DRUG DEALING, you need to practice common sense.
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Old 07-14-15, 06:57 PM   #65
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Re: The One and Only Civil Seizure thread

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Originally Posted by DVD Polizei View Post
You can drive around with $50K.

Just don't hang around the border. That's just the utmost dumbest thing I've ever heard of doing. Well, almost. Striking a deal with Iran would be the dumbest.

You could drive to 99% of all cities in the US with hundreds of thousands of dollars, and you'd be just fine. You would encounter no problems from police (or citizens).

But when you get to an area that is INFAMOUS FOR DRUG DEALING, you need to practice common sense.
Is Poweshiek County, IA near the border?
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Old 07-14-15, 07:00 PM   #66
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Re: The One and Only Civil Seizure thread

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Comparing American police, who have legitimate concerns about average citizens carrying large sums of cash...
Why do they have legitimate concerns over the amount of money? If they are actually legitimate, why not arrest the person? If nothing else, why not allow the burden of proof to be on the state?
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Old 07-14-15, 07:03 PM   #67
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Re: The One and Only Civil Seizure thread

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Originally Posted by Draven View Post
I'm sort of concerned that I can't drive around with $50,000 in cash on me if I want to. Is having cash automatically indicative of being guilty of something?
You're not guilty. The money is. Someone with $50,000 in cash could be going to buy drugs or they could have just sold drugs. If you are willing to hire a lawyer and pay court costs to prove a negative to get that money declared innocent, you might even be able to get it back.
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Old 07-14-15, 07:59 PM   #68
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Re: The One and Only Civil Seizure thread

No shit. And 1 in 6 actually try to get their money back. Is that any surprise? They seize $2,000 and then you think anyone wants to hire a lawyer where the burden of proof is on you to prove that the money wasn't used in a crime? That's fucked up.
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Old 07-14-15, 08:05 PM   #69
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Re: The One and Only Civil Seizure thread

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Originally Posted by kvrdave View Post
No shit. And 1 in 6 actually try to get their money back. Is that any surprise? They seize $2,000 and then you think anyone wants to hire a lawyer where the burden of proof is on you to prove that the money wasn't used in a crime? That's fucked up.
The link I posted above, the World Series of Poker players who were caught with having money after improper signaling (despite dashcam evidence to the contrary) did get their $100,000 back. And it only cost them $30,000 to do it!

They got to keep $70,000! What a wonderful benevolent government, letting someone keep over $70,000!
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Old 07-14-15, 08:09 PM   #70
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Re: The One and Only Civil Seizure thread

Wild, why don't more people go after their $8,800? They'd only be losing a bit over $20,000.
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Old 07-14-15, 09:27 PM   #71
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Re: The One and Only Civil Seizure thread

I wonder what the further stats are. To put it in perspective, the $2.5B figure means that the average seizure is $40k.

Only 1 in 6 even request their money back. Even if it costs $20k to have a lawyer handle your case - you're looking a a huge chunk of $20k+ cases where people just "walk away".

I don't know. I guess I just can't be on the side of these mystery people who drive around with $10k+ in their trunk.

Say that I was driving to Nogales AZ to pay for a $30k excavator, and the seller wants cash (or vice versa, I dropped one off). Legitimate transaction. First, I'd be really worried about someone who wants to hand off that much cash. That's shit where you show up at a warehouse, and get shot and dumped into a drum of acid. Next, I'd certainly carry an invoice and a business card. Also, I'm probably not going to be erratically driving a car with broken taillights or whatever.

Next - how many of these people are only having their "cash" confiscated, and are not detained for warrants, drugs, etc.? That $2.5B isn't confiscations-only. How many of those people went to jail? How many had bricks of coke in their trunk?

I think the whole article is just anti-law-enforcement and anti-American propaganda. There's a lot of slant and untold facts in the story.

Furthermore:

Quote:
RT Reads: Canadians warned by gov't of cash grab scheme by US police.

CBC Reads: On its official website, the Canadian government informs its citizens that “there is no limit to the amount of money that you may legally take into or out of the United States.”
So, no, the Canadian government has NOT posted anything bad about the USA (this is what had me genuinely curious ... seems like it'd be a dick move). They don't say a word about US cops seizing cash from Canadians. They simply state the rule. RT is straight up LYING. I'm telling you - that RT news is some crazy shit. It scares me that shit is catching on and infecting airwaves. Just as Fox News starts to die, another pops up. That CBC (not familiar) is right there with them, purposely misleading readers.

Am I missing anything? Correct me if I'm wrong.
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Last edited by Troy Stiffler; 07-14-15 at 09:35 PM.
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Old 07-15-15, 08:51 AM   #72
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Re: The One and Only Civil Seizure thread

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Originally Posted by Troy Stiffler View Post
So, no, the Canadian government has NOT posted anything bad about the USA (this is what had me genuinely curious ... seems like it'd be a dick move). They don't say a word about US cops seizing cash from Canadians. They simply state the rule. RT is straight up LYING. I'm telling you - that RT news is some crazy shit. It scares me that shit is catching on and infecting airwaves. Just as Fox News starts to die, another pops up. That CBC (not familiar) is right there with them, purposely misleading readers.

Am I missing anything? Correct me if I'm wrong.
http://travel.gc.ca/destinations/united-states

Under the "Laws & Culture" tab, in the "Money" section, it says "do not carry large amounts of cash." Now, that seems like something a government might advise for any foreign travel destination. But looking at a few other Western countries (France, UK, Germany, Australia, etc), I do not see the "do not carry large amounts of cash" language. Hell, even their travel advisories for Mexico or Russia or SOMALIA don't include the "do not carry large amounts of cash." language.

If you feel like poking around that site and can find another country other than the United States where travelers have to be told "do not carry large amounts of cash," please share it. I haven't found any yet.
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Old 07-15-15, 09:09 AM   #73
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Re: The One and Only Civil Seizure thread

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Originally Posted by RoyalTea View Post
http://travel.gc.ca/destinations/united-states

Under the "Laws & Culture" tab, in the "Money" section, it says "do not carry large amounts of cash." Now, that seems like something a government might advise for any foreign travel destination. But looking at a few other Western countries (France, UK, Germany, Australia, etc), I do not see the "do not carry large amounts of cash" language. Hell, even their travel advisories for Mexico or Russia or SOMALIA don't include the "do not carry large amounts of cash." language.

If you feel like poking around that site and can find another country other than the United States where travelers have to be told "do not carry large amounts of cash," please share it. I haven't found any yet.
Well you're technically correct (the best kind!) that there's no warning not to carry "large amounts of cash" in Mexico, since they technically say, "and carry only small amounts of cash."

They only make the "large amounts of cash" warning for a few countries (e.g. Trinidad, e.g. Greece, e.g. Italy), and it's absent for other countries like Somalia and Russia.

Obviously, the rational conclusion to be drawn is that the US, Italy, and Greece are worse than Somalia, rather than that the warnings just aren't consistent.
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Old 07-15-15, 11:24 AM   #74
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Re: The One and Only Civil Seizure thread

Here is the full text. SCANDAL!!!

The disingenuous idiots at RT are certainly creating their own anti-American narrative. And then read all of the anti-American comments from people who blindly parrot what RT says. Seriously - RT is exactly like Fox News.

Quote:
The currency is the U.S. dollar (USD). Canadian currency, traveller’s cheques in Canadian dollars, and personal cheques drawn on Canadian banks are not widely accepted or easily negotiable in the U.S. All major credit cards are accepted throughout the U.S.

There are banking machines that will accept Canadian bank cards, but these may be limited depending on your account access. Despite these difficulties, do not carry large amounts of cash. Non-U.S. residents generally cannot negotiate monetary bank instruments (international bank drafts, money orders, etc.) without having a U.S. bank account.

There is no limit to the amount of money that you may legally take into or out of the U.S.. However, if you carry more than US$10,000 in monetary instruments (such as U.S. or foreign coin, currency, traveller’s cheques, money orders, stocks or bonds) into or out of the U.S., or if you receive more than that amount while in the U.S., you must file a report (Customs Form 4790) with U.S. Customs. Failure to comply can result in civil and criminal penalties, including seizure of the currency or monetary instruments.
They also indicate that, anything over $10k, you simply have to file a form. I wonder how many $10k+ seizures came from people who had a signed form to accompany their suitcase full of cash.

So my point is: this is total bullshit. That CBC article is bullshit. And RT is a propaganda "news" network that appeals to a culture of anti-American teenagers - and should be ignored by rational people.

Lets move onto the real news of real people who have gotten caught up in the bureaucracy of civil seizure.
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Old 07-15-15, 12:34 PM   #75
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Re: The One and Only Civil Seizure thread

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Originally Posted by Troy Stiffler View Post
They also indicate that, anything over $10k, you simply have to file a form. I wonder how many $10k+ seizures came from people who had a signed form to accompany their suitcase full of cash.
One thing that bugs me about that $10,000 limit is that it was set by the Bank Secrecy Act of 1970. The nominal limit has never changed with inflation.

$10,000 in 1970 has the same buying power as $60,000+ today. And that limit is still kind of arbitrary because if someone is under the limit, then they're presumed to be under the limit solely to avoid the reporting requirements.
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