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SCOTUS warned of civil disobedience over same-sex marriage

Old 09-04-15, 01:28 PM
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Re: SCOTUS warned of civil disobedience over same-sex marriage

Originally Posted by CaptainMarvel View Post
Well, you're correct about the "INS"... they're certainly not impeding "INS" agents. But other than that, they absolutely are. When you have somebody in custody and forbid your people to notify ICE, or actively disregard a detainer that you in fact know about, that's not respecting the rule of law. Whether it's mandatory or not, it's still saying "we're going to make every effort to thwart enforcement of the law."
Yes, they're putting in tremendous effort ... by not doing anything. Which is perfectly legal since they aren't required to do anything.

But other than that, the situation is totally comparable to the issue we're actually trying to discuss in this thread, and you aren't derailing the conversation with an irrelevant tangent that makes no damned sense.
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Old 09-04-15, 01:33 PM
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Re: SCOTUS warned of civil disobedience over same-sex marriage

Originally Posted by Mark_vdH View Post
You're misreading the argument, or at least the part you quoted. They're saying Cruz should be consistent in either condemning or supporting people that refuse to follow court orders. I don't like MSNBC, by the way.
I'm not misreading anything. I happen to agree with their point as it relates to Cruz. I just think the people making that argument would be hailing a violation of law or a court order as civil disobedience if the underlying politics were aligned different.
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Old 09-04-15, 01:42 PM
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Re: SCOTUS warned of civil disobedience over same-sex marriage

Originally Posted by Sean O'Hara View Post
Yes, they're putting in tremendous effort ... by not doing anything. Which is perfectly legal since they aren't required to do anything.

But other than that, the situation is totally comparable to the issue we're actually trying to discuss in this thread, and you aren't derailing the conversation with an irrelevant tangent that makes no damned sense.
And if an employee did notify ICE, would the response still be "do nothing" or to punish the employee?

In any case, I'm sorry I "derailed" the thread by responding to an article that was posted. I'll bow out, so as to not interrupt the erudite discussion, which appears to have largely consisted of posting articles and mocking Grundle.
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Old 09-04-15, 01:52 PM
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Re: SCOTUS warned of civil disobedience over same-sex marriage

Originally Posted by CaptainMarvel View Post
I'm not misreading anything. I happen to agree with their point as it relates to Cruz. I just think the people making that argument would be hailing a violation of law or a court order as civil disobedience if the underlying politics were aligned different.
And?

They're not saying anything about having to follow the rule of law in itself (in your quote). They're just pointing out the inconsistency of Cruz.
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Old 09-04-15, 02:09 PM
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Re: SCOTUS warned of civil disobedience over same-sex marriage

Originally Posted by inri222 View Post
<img src="http://media2.s-nbcnews.com/j/newscms/2015_36/1205742/150903-kim-davis-mug-535p_2a10fb4a29fd25fb6bf13a4680f1087c.nbcnews-ux-2880-1000.jpg" WIDTH=515 HEIGHT=352>
At this point, I believe she will milk this for every cent she can make. Christian organizations will rally around her to pay her court and legal fees, there will be many tv appearances and book deals. This will benefit her greatly. It will make her into a martyred celebrity. Exactly what she is going for.
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Old 09-04-15, 02:16 PM
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Re: SCOTUS warned of civil disobedience over same-sex marriage

You got that right. She's definitely a milker.
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Old 09-04-15, 02:22 PM
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Re: SCOTUS warned of civil disobedience over same-sex marriage

Originally Posted by CaptainMarvel View Post
In any case, I'm sorry I "derailed" the thread by responding to an article that was posted. I'll bow out, so as to not interrupt the erudite discussion, which appears to have largely consisted of posting articles and mocking Grundle.
That's not the purpose of this thread. It's the purpose of this entire subforum.
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Old 09-04-15, 02:37 PM
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Re: SCOTUS warned of civil disobedience over same-sex marriage

Originally Posted by magiccmom View Post
At this point, I believe she will milk this for every cent she can make. Christian organizations will rally around her to pay her court and legal fees, there will be many tv appearances and book deals. This will benefit her greatly. It will make her into a martyred celebrity. Exactly what she is going for.
I'm sure all that money will be donated to the church.
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Old 09-04-15, 02:45 PM
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Re: SCOTUS warned of civil disobedience over same-sex marriage

Originally Posted by CaptainMarvel View Post
I just think the people making that argument would be hailing a violation of law or a court order as civil disobedience if the underlying politics were aligned different.
Under the right circumstances I would imagine you are entirely correct.
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Old 09-05-15, 01:58 AM
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Re: SCOTUS warned of civil disobedience over same-sex marriage

Originally Posted by movielib View Post
Kim Davis cannot be fired because she is an elected official
Originally Posted by Supermallet View Post
Davis... was jailed in her capacity as a government official. Funny how they aren't mentioning that at all.

OK. I was unaware of this information.

Normally, I'm all in favor of jailing government officials. But in this case, I think jail is going too far. Perhaps they could have a special recall election? Perhaps other government employees could issue those licenses for gay marriage? Jail, in this incident, seems way too extreme. I do think she should be terminated from her job, even if it means waiting until the next time the local legislature is in session. But jail? No. That's not helping anyone. She's not a violent criminal - she's not a threat anyone's safety.
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Old 09-05-15, 02:00 AM
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Re: SCOTUS warned of civil disobedience over same-sex marriage

Originally Posted by movielib View Post
http://www.metroweekly.com/2015/09/c...ses-or-resign/

Carly Fiorina suggests Kim Davis issue licenses or resign

I agree with Fiorina.
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Old 09-05-15, 02:12 AM
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Re: SCOTUS warned of civil disobedience over same-sex marriage

To those of you who say I'm mistaken to say that it was Obama who put Davis in jail, I'd like to point out that it was U.S. Marshals who took Davis into custody and put her in jail, and their boss is Obama. Also, Obama could pardon her from the jail sentence if he wanted to.

I still think there is some kind of double standard regarding the federal government's treatment of Davis vs its treatment of the truck drivers, although I do acknowledge that the circumstances in those two situations are different from each other.
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Old 09-05-15, 03:18 AM
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Re: SCOTUS warned of civil disobedience over same-sex marriage

Originally Posted by grundle View Post
OK. I was unaware of this information.

Normally, I'm all in favor of jailing government officials. But in this case, I think jail is going too far. Perhaps they could have a special recall election? Perhaps other government employees could issue those licenses for gay marriage? Jail, in this incident, seems way too extreme. I do think she should be terminated from her job, even if it means waiting until the next time the local legislature is in session. But jail? No. That's not helping anyone. She's not a violent criminal - she's not a threat anyone's safety.
Recalls are hardly simple. They take months to allow for the gathering of signatures and tons of extra work for election officials, printing of ballots etc. Lots of money. I know. I saw a governor and nine state senate recalls. And I have no idea if recalls are even available in Kentucky. But it's way too difficult and costly to use on a county clerk. Frankly, it's ludicrous.

Davis was given the chance by the judge to allow deputy clerks to issue the licenses. She refused. And it didn't (I assume couldn't) happen until she was jailed.

She was jailed for contempt. Remember, that is most often done (at least when we hear about it) when a journalist will not reveal sources when ordered by a judge. It is not prison, it is usually a county jail, and the order is lifted as soon as the order is followed.

As for impeachment, again, for a county clerk? And what are the chances for impeachment and conviction in such a conservative state? Legislators surely don't even want to get involved in something so controversial to say nothing about time-consuming. As a recall, it seems ludicrous for this.

To those of you who say I'm mistaken to say that it was Obama who put Davis in jail, I'd like to point out that it was U.S. Marshals who took Davis into custody and put her in jail, and their boss is Obama. Also, Obama could pardon her from the jail sentence if he wanted to.
Obama can pardon anyone for anything. that doesn't make him responsible for everyone being in jail. The judge, who has the authority, and whose order was defied, put Davis in jail. She holds the key to get out.
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Old 09-05-15, 05:17 AM
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Re: SCOTUS warned of civil disobedience over same-sex marriage

I suggest a fair compromise: she will start issuing marriage licenses to same-sex couples, and when God and/or Jesus Christ show up in person at the court house and command her to stop, she can.
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Old 09-05-15, 05:48 AM
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Re: SCOTUS warned of civil disobedience over same-sex marriage

Originally Posted by E. Honda View Post
I suggest a fair compromise: she will start issuing marriage licenses to same-sex couples, and when God and/or Jesus Christ show up in person at the court house and command her to stop, she can.
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Old 09-05-15, 06:12 AM
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Re: SCOTUS warned of civil disobedience over same-sex marriage

Davis' attorney claims the marriage licenses issued by her deputies are not valid:

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-w...today-are-void

In [Davis'] absence, deputy clerks in the Rowan County clerk's office have been issuing marriage licenses in a businesslike manner, Eyder says, a marked contrast to the celebrations, rallies and protests that have been going on outside this week.

After Yates and Smith submitted their paperwork and $35, they received the first license that was given out Friday, along with a simple "Congratulations" from Deputy Clerk Brian Mason.

But discussing that and other marriage licenses issued to same-sex couples today, [Davis' attorney, Mat] Staver said they are "void," because they did not come under Davis' authority.

"They are not worth the paper that they are written on," Staver said.

Exploring that idea, he said the county clerk has the authority to distribute marriage licenses — and Davis hasn't ceded that authority to her deputies who issued licenses Friday.
I don't know the correct answer to this point. I don't know if such a point has ever been adjudicated.
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Old 09-05-15, 06:19 AM
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Re: SCOTUS warned of civil disobedience over same-sex marriage

Originally Posted by grundle View Post
OK. I was unaware of this information.

Normally, I'm all in favor of jailing government officials. But in this case, I think jail is going too far. Perhaps they could have a special recall election? Perhaps other government employees could issue those licenses for gay marriage? Jail, in this incident, seems way too extreme. I do think she should be terminated from her job, even if it means waiting until the next time the local legislature is in session. But jail? No. That's not helping anyone. She's not a violent criminal - she's not a threat anyone's safety.
People are jailed all the time for nonviolent offenses, such as failure to appear at a court date. If a judge issues an order to someone who ignores that order, what should the judge do?

The issue here is that we live in a government of laws. Not only do we not have princes who can demand we do whatever they want, but local officials can't change the law within their own jurisdiction. Davis has decided that nobody can get married in her county. Remember, two of the four couples suing her are one-man-one-woman. Who is she to act like a prince and demand that couples have to wait on her pleasure for a marriage certificate?
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Old 09-05-15, 06:44 AM
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Re: SCOTUS warned of civil disobedience over same-sex marriage

Here is a better article on the question about the validity of the marriage licenses:

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/c7472...lerk-sits-jail

Jailed clerk's attorney: Marriage licenses for gays are void
By ADAM BEAM
Sep. 4, 2015 5:10 PM EDT

MOREHEAD, Ky. (AP) — A jailed Kentucky clerk asserted that marriage licenses issued without her authority Friday to gay couples in Rowan County are void and "not worth the paper they are written on" because she didn't authorize them, her attorney said.

Kim Davis now wears an orange jumpsuit and "has already been doing Bible studies with herself" in jail, her attorney Mat Staver of Liberty Counsel told reporters after meeting with her behind bars. He said Davis is in very good spirits, and is prepared to stay as long as it takes to uphold her religious freedoms.

"She's not going to resign, she's not going to sacrifice her conscience, so she's doing what Martin Luther King Jr. wrote about in his Letter from the Birmingham Jail, which is to pay the consequences for her decision," Staver said.

Meanwhile, Staver said he's preparing to appeal U.S. District Judge David Bunning's contempt finding as one of several legal challenges on her behalf.

At least three gay couples received marriage licenses Friday from one of Davis' deputies, embracing and celebrating after repeatedly being turned away before Davis was jailed on Thursday. Their attorneys, along with Rowan County Attorney Cecil Watkins, said the licenses are valid. Bunning said Thursday he did not know if the licenses were valid but ordered them to be issued anyway.

Marriage licenses in Kentucky usually have the elected clerk's signature on them; those handed out Friday lacked any signature. The Rowan County attorney and lawyers for the gay couples said they are legal and valid nevertheless. When the judge was asked if the licenses will be considered valid without Davis' authorization, he said it was up to the gay couples to take that chance.


William Smith Jr. and James Yates, a couple for nearly a decade, were the first through the door. Deputy clerk Brian Mason congratulated the couple, shook their hands and accepted their fee of $35.50. Yates then rushed across the courthouse steps to hug his mom.

"Civil rights are civil rights and they are not subject to belief," said Yates, who had been denied a license five times previously.

A crowd of supporters cheered and a street preacher rained down words of condemnation as they left. Yates and Smith said they are trying to choose between two wedding dates and plan a small ceremony.

Kim Davis had refused to issue any marriage licenses rather than comply with the U.S. Supreme Court's ruling in June legalizing gay marriage nationwide. After ordering her to jail, the judge told her six deputy clerks that they too faced potential fines or jail time if they similarly refuse. All but one — the clerk's son, Nathan Davis — agreed to end her church-state standoff.

A second couple, Timothy and Michael Long, got their license later Friday, enduring a taunt of "More sodomites getting married?" from a man inside the office. The Longs did not respond, and a worker told the man to leave.

A third couple, April Miller and Karen Roberts, got their license around midday.

"Now we can breathe. I'm still ecstatic and happy. I just can't wait to get married now," Roberts said.

The judge offered to release Davis if she promises not to interfere with her employees issuing the licenses, but she refused.

Davis husband, Joe Davis, also came to the courthouse Friday, holding a sign saying "Welcome to Sodom and Gomorrah."

He said his wife was in good spirits after her first night in jail. Asked if she would resign, he said, "Oh, God no. She's not going to resign at all. It's a matter of telling Bunning he ain't the boss."

Davis' son, who said he supports his mother, was warned by the judge Thursday not to interfere with his fellow employees. The judge said he did not want "any shenanigans," such as closing the office for computer upgrades as they did briefly last week.

"That would show a level of disrespect for the court's order," Bunning said. "I'm hoping that cooler heads will prevail."

The judge indicated Kim Davis would remain in jail at least a week, saying he would revisit his decision after the deputy clerks have had time to comply with his order.

Staver called on the judge as well as Democratic Gov. Steve Beshear to make "reasonable accommodations" so that Davis can keep her job without violating her beliefs as an Apostolic Christian. He suggested that with an executive order, he could change all the forms in Kentucky so that none require a clerk's signature or say that they've been issued under a clerk's authority.

Kentucky lawmakers won't meet until January, unless the governor calls a costly special session, and when they do, they say they will have many changes to make to adapt the state's civil code to the Supreme Court's ruling.
So even the federal judge doesn't know if the licenses are valid.

This could get even stickier.

As to the last bolded paragraph, I think the governor has said that must be done by the legislature. Perhaps when it gets back in session in January it would be reasonable for them to do so.
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Old 09-05-15, 06:53 AM
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Re: SCOTUS warned of civil disobedience over same-sex marriage

What a fucking mess...and she's a complete nuthob.
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Old 09-05-15, 07:10 AM
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Re: SCOTUS warned of civil disobedience over same-sex marriage

Originally Posted by grundle View Post
But jail? No. That's not helping anyone. She's not a violent criminal - she's not a threat anyone's safety.
I agree that it would be nice if our criminal justice system wasn't so eager to throw non-violent criminals behind bars, I don't think we want to go down the path where only non-violent criminals can be jailed or imprisoned.

If someone cheats on their taxes and repeatedly ignores a court and refuses to take advantage of opportunities to cooperate, should they be ineligible for jail because cheating on taxes isn't "violent?"

Bernie Madoff wasn't "violent," should he go free because he's not threatening anyone's safety?
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Old 09-05-15, 08:48 AM
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Now a judge in Oregon is being a douche
http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-no...to_perfor.html
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Old 09-05-15, 08:53 AM
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Re: SCOTUS warned of civil disobedience over same-sex marriage

Originally Posted by grundle View Post
OK. I was unaware of this information.

Normally, I'm all in favor of jailing government officials. But in this case, I think jail is going too far. Perhaps they could have a special recall election? Perhaps other government employees could issue those licenses for gay marriage? Jail, in this incident, seems way too extreme. I do think she should be terminated from her job, even if it means waiting until the next time the local legislature is in session. But jail? No. That's not helping anyone. She's not a violent criminal - she's not a threat anyone's safety.
They've already said that it would be too cost prohibitive to do that. Let her rot in jail.
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Old 09-05-15, 09:56 AM
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Re: SCOTUS warned of civil disobedience over same-sex marriage

Originally Posted by grundle View Post
To those of you who say I'm mistaken to say that it was Obama who put Davis in jail, I'd like to point out that it was U.S. Marshals who took Davis into custody and put her in jail, and their boss is Obama. Also, Obama could pardon her from the jail sentence if he wanted to.
When a Federal judge orders someone held in contempt, Federal Marshals have to take them into custody. That's how the legal system works. The executive branch cannot decide it's not going to obey a court order.

And the pardon idea is ridiculous. You keep saying she's being jailed for not doing her job, but a more accurate summation would be she's withholding civil rights from American citizens. If she were pardoned, she could go right back to her job and keep withholding those civil rights -- only now the government couldn't do anything about it.

Or maybe you'd prefer Obama took a page from Ike and sent the 101st Airbourne into the office and made her do her job at gunpoint?
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Old 09-05-15, 10:20 AM
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Re: SCOTUS warned of civil disobedience over same-sex marriage

Originally Posted by movielib View Post
Obama can pardon anyone for anything.
President Obama can pardon anyone for a federal crime. Kim Davis is in jail due to civil contempt charges, not for a federal crime, so grundle is, not surprisingly, wrong again. See Ex parte Grossman, 267 U.S. 87 (1925) ("Neither in this country nor in England can [a pardon] interfere with the use of coercive measures to enforce a suitor's right").
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Old 09-05-15, 10:23 AM
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Re: SCOTUS warned of civil disobedience over same-sex marriage

Originally Posted by grundle View Post
I agree with Fiorina.
[That Davis should either issue the licenses or resign].

Gee, that's nice. I do too. So does Judge Bunning. He issued an order to that effect. She refused to comply. Now what? I'm sure Kim Davis is sitting around thinking "If only I knew what Carly Fiorina and grundle want me to do, I'd completely follow their advice!" but on the off chance we can't get word to her about your opinion, what exactly is a court supposed to do with a public official who refuses to do her duty and then violates a court order -- appealed all the way up to the Supreme Court -- commanding her to perform her official duties?

No, seriously -- given Davis's actions, what would you suggest is the better choice than holding her in contempt?
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