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What Restroom Should Transgender People Use?

Old 05-10-16, 08:55 AM
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Re: What Restroom Should Transgender People Use?

Originally Posted by hdnmickey View Post
Seems like you are clear about it to me.

Threw out "there's an increased danger". Didn't stick. Threw out "but what about locker rooms". Didn't stick. Threw out incest. Didn't stick. What deflection angle could possibly be next once this current angle doesn't stick? Hopefully just getting back on topic.
??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

This might be a good time to acknowledge that simply because an argument doesn't persuade an opponent, that doesn't mean it "didn't stick"...unless one is applying that to both sides, in which cases most opinions expressed in these threads "don't stick." Has that ever been in doubt...that people here (and throughout the U.S.) disagree on many issues?

That would seem to rank among the most obvious observations that could possibly be made. One might even say that explains the very existence of a politics & religion forum.

As a illustration, here's this morning's C-Span Washington Journal lead-off discussion in which callers express their various opinions about the NC lawsuit & the JD counter-suit:

http://www.c-span.org/video/?408913-...use-bill-2-law
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Old 05-10-16, 09:07 AM
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Re: What Restroom Should Transgender People Use?

Originally Posted by Dan View Post
Here's the full video of Attorney General Loretta Lynch, including Q&A. Watch it.
http://www.c-span.org/video/?409316-...rolina-lawsuit

Here's the written complaint (PDF). Read it.
https://assets.documentcloud.org/doc...JComplaint.pdf
Good post. I read the complaint quickly for now...intresting that they put the time line.

I would think one big question to NC is, how can you as a state feel fine with reacting to a city ordinance but than be upset when the US does the same thing?
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Old 05-10-16, 09:40 AM
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Re: What Restroom Should Transgender People Use?

Why are we criticizing others for posting videos without their own comments in other threads, but doing the same here and thinking it is acceptable??
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Old 05-10-16, 09:48 AM
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Re: What Restroom Should Transgender People Use?

Sorry Eddie. My intent was to link the news directly from the Justice Department. An update to further discussion, if you will. The video is a statement from the JD; it isn't an opinion piece by some uneducated YouTube wank ranting about things he knows nothing about. Regardless, I was going to comment after watching it a few times.

My comment is this:
It's stated clearly and concisely within the statement that HB2 is discriminatory. I applaud the Justice Department for backing transgender folks 100% with their statements regarding this matter. It's fascinating, because I kind of expected there to be some slip-ups in the terms used, but I'm getting the feeling from other places I visit that people are very happy with the way the government is essentially telling NC to get their shit together.

To quote:
To all Trans Americans: The United States of America stands with you in your fight for human dignity.
 Some Americans might not like that.
 They are now the problem, not you.
Brilliant!

Last edited by Dan; 05-10-16 at 09:55 AM.
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Old 05-10-16, 09:51 AM
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Re: What Restroom Should Transgender People Use?

Originally Posted by Sdallnct View Post
Good post. I read the complaint quickly for now...intresting that they put the time line.

I would think one big question to NC is, how can you as a state feel fine with reacting to a city ordinance but than be upset when the US does the same thing?
Short answer: federalism and the enumerated powers clause of the constitution. Federal government:state governments is not the same as state governments:city governments.
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Old 05-10-16, 09:52 AM
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Re: What Restroom Should Transgender People Use?

Originally Posted by Dan View Post
Sorry Eddie. My intent was to link the news directly from the Justice Department. An update to further discussion, if you will. The video is a statement from the JD; it isn't an opinion piece by some uneducated YouTube wank ranting about things he knows nothing about. Regardless, I was going to comment after watching it a few times.

My comment is this:
It's stated clearly and concisely within the statement that HB2 is discriminatory. I applaud the Justice Department for backing transgender folks 100% with their statements regarding this matter. It's fascinating, because I kind of expected there to be some slip-ups in the terms used, but I'm getting the feeling from other places I visit that people are very happy with the way the government is essentially telling NC to get their shit together.
I'll have to read through that statement today when I get some extra time.
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Old 05-10-16, 10:26 AM
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Re: What Restroom Should Transgender People Use?

Originally Posted by EddieMoney View Post
Why are we criticizing others for posting videos without their own comments in other threads, but doing the same here and thinking it is acceptable??
Links with facts vs. links with opinions?
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Old 05-10-16, 10:30 AM
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Re: What Restroom Should Transgender People Use?

I think the "transgenderism is not a real thing" angle nails it. The people arguing for potty monitor legislation don't believe transgenderism exists, just like many or most of them don't believe homosexuality exists. It's just weird people acting up to cause trouble.

It's very easy to be smug and self-righteous about something you have never experienced--whether it be gender dysphoria or homosexuality--and to think LGBT people should just go back in the closet (mostly so you don't have to be uncomfortable from the knowledge that they exist).
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Old 05-10-16, 10:31 AM
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Re: What Restroom Should Transgender People Use?

Originally Posted by EddieMoney View Post
Why are we criticizing others for posting videos without their own comments in other threads, but doing the same here and thinking it is acceptable??
Go over to the Christian Echo Chamber and you'll see the same thing there. Why aren't you bitching about that?
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Old 05-10-16, 10:39 AM
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Re: What Restroom Should Transgender People Use?

Originally Posted by Vibiana View Post
The people arguing for potty monitor legislation don't believe transgenderism exists, just like many or most of them don't believe homosexuality exists. It's just weird people acting up to cause trouble.
But you got to love some people claiming everybody was born a certain way when the same people totally refuse to accept that people are born homosexual.
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Old 05-10-16, 10:40 AM
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Re: What Restroom Should Transgender People Use?

Originally Posted by Vibiana View Post
Go over to the Christian Echo Chamber and you'll see the same thing there. Why aren't you bitching about that?
I wasn't bitching about anything, I was pointing something out.
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Old 05-10-16, 10:46 AM
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Re: What Restroom Should Transgender People Use?

Originally Posted by creekdipper View Post
??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

This might be a good time to acknowledge that simply because an argument doesn't persuade an opponent, that doesn't mean it "didn't stick"...unless one is applying that to both sides, in which cases most opinions expressed in these threads "don't stick." Has that ever been in doubt...that people here (and throughout the U.S.) disagree on many issues?

That would seem to rank among the most obvious observations that could possibly be made. One might even say that explains the very existence of a politics & religion forum.

As a illustration, here's this morning's C-Span Washington Journal lead-off discussion in which callers express their various opinions about the NC lawsuit & the JD counter-suit:

http://www.c-span.org/video/?408913-...use-bill-2-law
But to have an honest arguement doesn't there need to be some basis for the "arguement"? Doesn't there need to be some evidence to the arguement being made and not imaginary made up stuff?

Using politics as an example (since up you did), I could say Hilary cannot be trusted and point to the e-mail scandal. I could say Trump is a bigot and point to his remarks about 'the wall". If you oppose those views you don't have accept them as "fact", say they are incomplete, taken out of context, is only one issue, etc, etc. and we both could disagree.

Now if I were to say Cruz is an alien from Mars, is that really an "arguement"?

We can point to science to say gender identity is more an what is between your legs. You can say you don't trust the science, it is incomplete, God has a plan, whatever.

But when someone makes up something like "allowing TG people to use the bathroom they identify with is a danger to woman and children" is that an arguement when no evidence is presented? How do you have a discussion (to agree, disagree, persuade) when it is just made up?

One of my "arguments" I'm making to the our wonderful state attorney general in my letter to him is that going to church on Sunday puts my family in significally more damager than allowing a TG person use the bathroom they identify with. Obviously it won't persuade him due to his agenda. But at least I have evidence to demonstrate my statement. He has no evidence for his statement.

Last edited by Sdallnct; 05-10-16 at 10:51 AM.
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Old 05-10-16, 10:49 AM
  #1713  
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Re: What Restroom Should Transgender People Use?

Originally Posted by orangecrush View Post
Short answer: federalism and the enumerated powers clause of the constitution. Federal government:state governments is not the same as state governments:city governments.
Yea, and in general I know that. But it is the irony of them complaining about the Feds stepping in when it was them that "stepped in" first.
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Old 05-10-16, 10:55 AM
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Re: What Restroom Should Transgender People Use?

Originally Posted by Sdallnct View Post
Yea, and in general I know that. But it is the irony of them complaining about the Feds stepping in when it was them that "stepped in" first.
This. Lots of irony in this thread.

Last edited by hdnmickey; 05-10-16 at 11:13 AM.
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Old 05-10-16, 11:18 AM
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Re: What Restroom Should Transgender People Use?

Originally Posted by Space Ape Mafia View Post
Which gets back to the question, how is identifying more than a feeling and not "real" (meaning how is a boy tg as a girl, actually a girl?)

Also still waiting for you to post a quote where I said tg's are attacking people. Or just admit you made it up. Thanks.
Again, do you know you're a boy? What if you thought you were a girl instead?

And I'm not digging through all the pages. You've said that these policies of allowing TG people to use bathrooms make bathrooms unsafe for your family.

If you want to tell me you haven't said that, then I will do the work of looking up your posts. But this has been about "the safety of your family" since day 1.
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Old 05-10-16, 11:27 AM
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Re: What Restroom Should Transgender People Use?

Originally Posted by hdnmickey View Post
But you got to love some people claiming everybody was born a certain way when the same people totally refuse to accept that people are born homosexual.
That makes absolutely no sense at all.

If a person thinks that everybody is born "heterosexual," then it logically follows that they would refuse to "accept" (on faith, no less) that "people are born homosexual."

In fact, to do otherwise would be contradictory.

Last edited by creekdipper; 05-10-16 at 11:44 AM.
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Old 05-10-16, 11:29 AM
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Re: What Restroom Should Transgender People Use?

Originally Posted by Vibiana View Post
Go over to the Christian Echo Chamber and you'll see the same thing there. Why aren't you bitching about that?
Since you insist upon bringing Christianity into the discussion, I think it's just splendid that you visit the Echo Chamber so often.

(Which reminds me...time to post the next installment in the series from Romans)

Last edited by creekdipper; 05-10-16 at 11:44 AM.
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Old 05-10-16, 12:00 PM
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Re: What Restroom Should Transgender People Use?

Originally Posted by Sdallnct View Post
But to have an honest arguement doesn't there need to be some basis for the "arguement"? Doesn't there need to be some evidence to the arguement being made and not imaginary made up stuff?
I wasn't going to respond to this at all since it's all been pretty much covered (asking people to explain "the science" you referenced...I posted several links from transgender folks whose explanations for causes of transgenderism is all over the map, for example).

And I said very early on in the discussion that I thought the restroom issue was primarily a smokescreen.

What may be missed, though, is that the "honest argument" you're seeking is dubious as expressed by Lynch. I listened to her press conference, and I actually examined the 200-page complaint posted by Dan.

Lynch cited the term "gender identity" being included in the Violence Against Women Act. Now, most would likely agree after looking at the provisions of the act that it was designed to protect women from violence of all sorts. The one reference to gender identity cites non-discrimination...and her interpretation is that includes requiring transgender people to use the facilities designated for the gender on their birth certificate is discriminatory since non-transgender people get to use the facilities that match the gender they "identify" with. In effect, she is arguing that the transgender people are being treated differently.

What may have been missed is that she also referenced changing rooms & other public facilities in addition to restrooms (she was specifically asked this by a reporter). Lynch confirmed that transgender folks would have to legally be allowed to use whatever public facilities matched their identity and that, unlike restrooms, the amount of nakedness wasn't the issue.

So, despite the contention of some that these points are "distractions," they ARE being addressed on the national stage in the very links that you & others have praised. If they were not relevant issues, wouldn't Lynch have simply said that those questions were irrelevant? Surely if the AG whom you admire considers the point worthy of addressing, lowly DVDTalk can find a place for discussion.

Would you not agree?
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Old 05-10-16, 12:26 PM
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Re: What Restroom Should Transgender People Use?

Originally Posted by creekdipper View Post
I wasn't going to respond to this at all since it's all been pretty much covered (asking people to explain "the science" you referenced...I posted several links from transgender folks whose explanations for causes of transgenderism is all over the map, for example).

And I said very early on in the discussion that I thought the restroom issue was primarily a smokescreen.

What may be missed, though, is that the "honest argument" you're seeking is dubious as expressed by Lynch. I listened to her press conference, and I actually examined the 200-page complaint posted by Dan.

Lynch cited the term "gender identity" being included in the Violence Against Women Act. Now, most would likely agree after looking at the provisions of the act that it was designed to protect women from violence of all sorts. The one reference to gender identity cites non-discrimination...and her interpretation is that includes requiring transgender people to use the facilities designated for the gender on their birth certificate is discriminatory since non-transgender people get to use the facilities that match the gender they "identify" with. In effect, she is arguing that the transgender people are being treated differently.

What may have been missed is that she also referenced changing rooms & other public facilities in addition to restrooms (she was specifically asked this by a reporter). Lynch confirmed that transgender folks would have to legally be allowed to use whatever public facilities matched their identity and that, unlike restrooms, the amount of nakedness wasn't the issue.

So, despite the contention of some that these points are "distractions," they ARE being addressed on the national stage in the very links that you & others have praised. If they were not relevant issues, wouldn't Lynch have simply said that those questions were irrelevant? Surely if the AG whom you admire considers the point worthy of addressing, lowly DVDTalk can find a place for discussion.

Would you not agree?
If I agree, how do we have a discussion on imaginary items tho?

As for locker rooms, what else needs discussing? No one had posted a single policy or single instance in which it is required in all circumstances to shower or dress in a place "you" are not comfortable doing so. Every policy I have read has options. The only option left is to force a TG person to use a facility that is counter to their identity.

And if that is the issue, as you claim, why is anyone boycotting Target? They don't showers there nor do they have "open" changing rooms. Even the person leading the boycotts against Target is not suggesting a TG person be forced to use a restroom counter to their identity (they are proposing men's, woman's and unisex options. Which I don't agree, but at least it is removed from forcing a TG woman to go into the men's room).

In the lawsuit, the Feds quoted the NC Carolia governor and senat members as they discussed this as a safety issue. They are clearly pushing the imaginary safety issue.

And the only reason the Feds are involved is it is a discrimination issue. It is a civil rights issue. And when the same arguements are made, as in other civil rights issues, it is kind of obvious.
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Old 05-10-16, 12:40 PM
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Re: What Restroom Should Transgender People Use?

Originally Posted by creekdipper View Post
I wasn't going to respond to this at all since it's all been pretty much covered (asking people to explain "the science" you referenced...I posted several links from transgender folks whose explanations for causes of transgenderism is all over the map, for example).
Alongside <s>doctors or scientists</s> (maybe not all professionals, but others who wrote extensively with citations), all of whom seemed to have a common theme among their explanations, backed by the scientific studies they referenced, and discussion specifically about chromosomes, genital development (or lack thereof), etc.

Unless I missed it (this thread moves too fast), why do you seem to ignore those statements entirely, instead focusing only on what some of the transgender folks said?

Last edited by Dan; 05-10-16 at 12:50 PM.
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Old 05-10-16, 12:47 PM
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Re: What Restroom Should Transgender People Use?

Originally Posted by Sdallnct View Post
Yea, and in general I know that. But it is the irony of them complaining about the Feds stepping in when it was them that "stepped in" first.
I don't see it as ironic. Though I also tend to think that of all the amendments to the constitution, the 10th amendment has been violated the most.
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Old 05-10-16, 12:57 PM
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Re: What Restroom Should Transgender People Use?

Interesting study from 2011.
Transsexual differences caught on brain scan

Antonio Guillamon‘s team at the National University of Distance Education in Madrid, Spain, think they have found a better way to spot a transsexual brain. In a study due to be published next month, the team ran MRI scans on the brains of 18 female-to-male transsexual people who’d had no treatment and compared them with those of 24 males and 19 females.

They found significant differences between male and female brains in four regions of white matter – and the female-to-male transsexual people had white matter in these regions that resembled a male brain.

In a separate study, the team used the same technique to compare white matter in 18 male-to-female transsexual people with that in 19 males and 19 females. Surprisingly, in each transsexual person’s brain the structure of the white matter in the four regions was halfway between that of the males and females.

A 2010 study of 121 transgender people found that 38 per cent realised they had gender variance by age 5. White matter differences could provide independent confirmation that such children might benefit from treatment to delay puberty.

“Research has shown that white matter matures during the first 20 to 30 years of life,” he says. “People may experience early or late onset of transsexuality and we don’t know what causes this difference.”
Seriously fascinating stuff.

It's absolutely fair to say that this study is inconclusive (I say do as many of these kinds of studies as humanly possible!) but I don't see how you can call transgender people "delusional" when there's more than enough doubt that this could even possibly be considered purely psychological.
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Old 05-10-16, 02:24 PM
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Re: What Restroom Should Transgender People Use?

Originally Posted by Dan View Post
Interesting study from 2011.
Transsexual differences caught on brain scan



Seriously fascinating stuff.

It's absolutely fair to say that this study is inconclusive (I say do as many of these kinds of studies as humanly possible!) but I don't see how you can call transgender people "delusional" when there's more than enough doubt that this could even possibly be considered purely psychological.
Thanks for posting, I was thinking of posting this same study. And there are others as well. I have been following the thread and I am hoping to have more time to actually contribute by the end of the week. Suffice to say, there is not much doubt that there is both a biological and sociocultural basis behind this. The science is still very preliminary but a strong consensus is forming (much like with sexuality, although that has been studied more). Anyways, I will round up my links when I get some more time later this week. For anyone else interested, a quick search of pubmed would probably be illuminating..
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Old 05-10-16, 03:51 PM
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Re: What Restroom Should Transgender People Use?

A christian fundamentalist gladly explains to their kid he could burn in hell forever, but draws the line at where strangers want to pee.
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Old 05-10-16, 09:45 PM
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Re: What Restroom Should Transgender People Use?

Transgender people should start pissing and shitting on the floor between the entrances to the men's and women's restrooms. Better yet if there is a water fountain there just sit in it and do your business.
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