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Religion, Politics and World Events They make great dinner conversation, don't you think? plus Political Film

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Old 01-13-15, 02:56 PM   #126
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Re: Brand-spanking New Atheist- & Christian-bashing thread

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Yes, it would likely be fascinating to you.
Would they, are they like your argument against gay marriage that you had to explain to Bando over the phone?
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Old 01-13-15, 03:01 PM   #127
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Re: Brand-spanking New Atheist- & Christian-bashing thread

What if we as humans eventually figure out how to create a new universe? Does that mean humans were always were supernatural (gods even) and that it's possible that similar humans, long since dead, created our current universe?
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Old 01-13-15, 03:04 PM   #128
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Re: Brand-spanking New Atheist- & Christian-bashing thread

I'm cranky, just cranky.
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Old 01-13-15, 03:17 PM   #129
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Re: Brand-spanking New Atheist- & Christian-bashing thread

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Would they, are they like your argument against gay marriage that you had to explain to Bando over the phone?
No, that can be pretty well fleshed out in 30 minutes. The answers I would give you would be meaningless to you. I'm actually serious about that. Imagine dumbass me trying to talk with OldDude about some engineering phenomena. It would be awkward as hell as he would try to be nice to me about it, but he would soon come to understand that it is a pointless en devour because I lack far too much background knowledge for us to have a meaningful conversation about it. Now, the natural reaction is to think, "WTF, kvr is coming off as a pious asshole. YOU THINK YOU'RE BETTER THAN ME?" And it isn't that at all. This isn't about the knowledge I have, but about understanding the history of these threads. Some people think it is their duty to spread the gospel. I believe the definition of "the gospel" is quite different than they do. But without learning what I have learned, going through what I have gone through, etc., the answer would be ultimately meaningless to you or them. Meaningless in that it would not satisfy you. And that's okay. You know I love you (for Supermallet I have loved, but Bando I have hated) and don't mean any of this to sound dismissive of you or your beliefs.

Take it this way. You probably don't spend a lot of time going over religion in your mind. You just don't I'm assuming. You may think about it a bit, watch the occasional video, read the occasional book, but it really isn't something you've devoted your time to. And fuck, that's okay. That would put you as involved as 99% of every butt in every house of worship. Since 2011 I have likely averaged 3 to 4 hours a day, every day, to finding out more. Fuck, I don't even really watch tv or movies any more. I simply decided it was important enough to me that I ought to put my money where my mouth was and truly make an effort to understand as much as I could. The goal was to know more about it than I knew about Star Trek. I fucking lofty goal. And it wasn't just the Bible by any means. And I'm still pretty normal. Which you would have found out if you weren't a little bitch.
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Old 01-13-15, 03:19 PM   #130
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Re: Brand-spanking New Atheist- & Christian-bashing thread

Yes, but have you read Shakespeare in the original Klingon?
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Old 01-13-15, 03:19 PM   #131
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Re: Brand-spanking New Atheist- & Christian-bashing thread

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What if we as humans eventually figure out how to create a new universe? Does that mean humans were always were supernatural (gods even) and that it's possible that similar humans, long since dead, created our current universe?
Nice. If that universe could not detect our universe, then by their natural laws, yes, we would be supernatural to them.
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Old 01-13-15, 03:19 PM   #132
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Re: Brand-spanking New Atheist- & Christian-bashing thread

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Yes, but have you read Shakespeare in the original Klingon?
There exist other version?
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Old 01-13-15, 03:20 PM   #133
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Re: Brand-spanking New Atheist- & Christian-bashing thread

Seriously though, I know (and appreciate) that you truly do think for yourself, study the evidence you have, consider multiple points of view, and then come to your own conclusions that satisfy you, even if those conclusions run counter to what everyone else says and thinks. I would enjoy trying to converse with you about it, but I understand if you want to be a holier-than-thou prick about it.
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Old 01-13-15, 03:48 PM   #134
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Re: Brand-spanking New Atheist- & Christian-bashing thread

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Yup.

I would say more about the no true Scotsman fallacy again (as a rep for my many Great! Christian friends and family members that simply disgaree with other Christians) but that too seems to be like
So you DO believe that a person claiming to be a Democrat can vote against Democrats in every election from his 18th birthday until death and live up to the claim of being a Democrat.

You're a very generous person.
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Old 01-13-15, 03:50 PM   #135
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Re: Brand-spanking New Atheist- & Christian-bashing thread

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I'm cranky, just cranky.
bob, I'm still not convinced that is actually you, unless you were just jesting. Did you turn over your password to enemy agents, or were you the victim of a hack?

If it's actually you, I thought maybe you were having a stroke or something. Or standing on a ledge with your tablet.

Say it aint' so!

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Old 01-13-15, 03:54 PM   #136
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Re: Brand-spanking New Atheist- & Christian-bashing thread

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What if we as humans eventually figure out how to create a new universe?
Timothy Leary already beat you there.
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Old 01-13-15, 03:56 PM   #137
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Re: Brand-spanking New Atheist- & Christian-bashing thread

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Seriously though, I know (and appreciate) that you truly do think for yourself, study the evidence you have, consider multiple points of view, and then come to your own conclusions that satisfy you, even if those conclusions run counter to what everyone else says and thinks. I would enjoy trying to converse with you about it, but I understand if you want to be a holier-than-thou prick about it.
Thanks for understanding. If I believed in eternal torture in hell, I'd tell you to enjoy it.
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Old 01-13-15, 03:57 PM   #138
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Re: Brand-spanking New Atheist- & Christian-bashing thread

And if I believed in anything other than the cessation of all natural functions, I'd wish you a pleasant afterlife AND buy you a $10 pizza!
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Old 01-13-15, 03:58 PM   #139
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Re: Brand-spanking New Atheist- & Christian-bashing thread

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And if I believed in anything other than the cessation of all natural functions, I'd wish you a pleasant afterlife AND buy you a $10 pizza!
Hey, now...don't be giving away my slices!
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Old 01-13-15, 04:02 PM   #140
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Re: Brand-spanking New Atheist- & Christian-bashing thread

Don't you worry, creeky, for though we only have one pizza, all will eat and be satisfied!
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Old 01-13-15, 04:03 PM   #141
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Re: Brand-spanking New Atheist- & Christian-bashing thread

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So you DO believe that a person claiming to be a Democrat can vote against Democrats in every election from his 18th birthday until death and live up to the claim of being a Democrat.

You're a very generous person.
Here's the problem. For a conversation like this, damn near every word needs to be defined so that those speaking have the same understanding. The very words "God," "Christian," and other things mean very different things even to people eveb those who believe they are on the same side. So what anyone believes about the person who calls himself a Democrat is immaterial as you first have to find out what it means to that person. I know pro-choice Catholics. Likely we all do. This is the easiest example of how words mean different things to different people. For some Catholicism is no different than being Jewish, yet not religious, for many (movielib or Supermallet come to mind). For some, being Catholic is something you are for life, even if you are a lapsed one. I think that is silly, personally, but that is how it goes. So to actually have a fruitful discussion, I'd first check and see if you guys are even talking the same language.
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Old 01-13-15, 04:05 PM   #142
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Re: Brand-spanking New Atheist- & Christian-bashing thread

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Don't you worry, creeky, for though we only have one pizza, all will eat and be satisfied!


Actually, although that is posited by some as being theoretically possible from a spiritual standpoint, it runs contrary to the doctrine of predestination. Therefore, some will never be invited to the feast...and will never be (ultimately) satisfied.
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Old 01-13-15, 04:05 PM   #143
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Re: Brand-spanking New Atheist- & Christian-bashing thread

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Don't you worry, creeky, for though we only have one pizza, all will eat and be satisfied!
And we picked up 12 barrels of toppings and crust when all were finished.
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Old 01-13-15, 04:12 PM   #144
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Re: Brand-spanking New Atheist- & Christian-bashing thread

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Here's the problem. For a conversation like this, damn near every word needs to be defined so that those speaking have the same understanding. The very words "God," "Christian," and other things mean very different things even to people eveb those who believe they are on the same side. So what anyone believes about the person who calls himself a Democrat is immaterial as you first have to find out what it means to that person. I know pro-choice Catholics. Likely we all do. This is the easiest example of how words mean different things to different people. For some Catholicism is no different than being Jewish, yet not religious, for many (movielib or Supermallet come to mind). For some, being Catholic is something you are for life, even if you are a lapsed one. I think that is silly, personally, but that is how it goes. So to actually have a fruitful discussion, I'd first check and see if you guys are even talking the same language.
I suppose I should rather than saying "No true Democrat," the proper appellation would be "only a bad Democrat."

But, yeah, people can define terms pretty much anyway they want (see the comments about "natural" vs. "supernatural"). Which sometimes makes discussion nearly impossible.

People even mistake how they think someone else is mistaking their comments & try to ascribe statements to him/her that were never actually posted. When you can't even get people to agree upon common areas of agreement (that those areas are being shared), then everyone goes to fall-back positions and the frustration mounts. And nothing gets discussed.

An interpreter is needed to moderate these discussions (and I know there will be plenty of volunteers).
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Old 01-13-15, 04:15 PM   #145
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Re: Brand-spanking New Atheist- & Christian-bashing thread

Later I'll turn some water into beer by buying us all Bud Light!
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Old 01-13-15, 04:28 PM   #146
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Re: Brand-spanking New Atheist- & Christian-bashing thread

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Later I'll turn some water into beer by buying us all Bud Light!
Light?

Only a pagan would say such a thing!

Hey, don't bother bringing the Diet Coke & gluten-free chips to the Super Bowl party, okay?
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Old 01-13-15, 04:55 PM   #147
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Re: Brand-spanking New Atheist- & Christian-bashing thread

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bob, I'm still not convinced that is actually you, unless you were just jesting. Did you turn over your password to enemy agents, or were you the victim of a hack?

If it's actually you, I thought maybe you were having a stroke or something. Or standing on a ledge with your tablet.
Just tired of the same characterizations that are just nonsense. No moral compass, love is just a chemical reaction... It's about as tiresome as people saying to you "Christians only do good things because they are afraid of punishment," does that follow?

On a side note, you may be interested in this:

http://www.cato.org/events/moral-arc...ampaign=buffer

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Featuring the author Michael Shermer; moderated by David Boaz, Executive Vice President, Cato Institute.

We hear a lot about moral decline these days. Michael Shermer, the author of Why People Believe Weird Things, The Believing Brain, and eight other books on the evolution of human beliefs and behavior, argues that the scientific way of thinking has made people — and society as a whole — more moral. The Age of Reason and the Enlightenment led theorists to apply scientific reasoning to the nonscientific disciplines of politics, economics, and moral philosophy. Instead of relying on the woodcuts of dissected bodies in old medical texts, physicians opened bodies themselves to see what was there; instead of divining truth through the authority of an ancient book, people began to explore the book of nature for themselves through travel and exploration; instead of the supernatural belief in the divine right of kings, people employed a natural belief in the right of democracy. Abstract reasoning, rationality, empiricism, and skepticism, Shermer says, have profoundly changed the way we perceive morality and, indeed, move us ever closer to a more just world. With advance endorsements from Steven Pinker, Jared Diamond, and Michio Kaku, this book is likely to provoke lots of debate.

If you can’t make it to the Cato Institute, watch this event live online at www.cato.org/live and follow @CatoEvents on Twitter to get future event updates, live streams, and videos from the Cato Institute.
Maybe it'll provide sound of the foundation answers you are looking for.
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Old 01-13-15, 05:02 PM   #148
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Re: Brand-spanking New Atheist- & Christian-bashing thread

I'm a big fan of Shermer.
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Old 01-13-15, 05:47 PM   #149
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Re: Brand-spanking New Atheist- & Christian-bashing thread

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Just tired of the same characterizations that are just nonsense. No moral compass, love is just a chemical reaction... It's about as tiresome as people saying to you "Christians only do good things because they are afraid of punishment," does that follow?
But, bob...I was just citing what some claiming to be atheists have said here re: chemical reactions, etc. I always characterized that view as coming from "some atheists", not all. I never said that atheists can have no "moral compass" (although that can mean anything...a selfish person's "moral compass" may inform him that he/she has the right to anything he/she wants, and...as you must admit...they would be entirely entitled to that opinion & subsequent actions unless a person with a different "moral compass" wants to impose their own standards upon that person). And I never said that Christians never commit crimes (in fact, I said EXACTLY the opposite), that someone who has committed a crime cannot be a Christian, or that anyone who commits crimes is an atheist. I'm here to defend what I actually say, not the opposite of what I said. That's why I was momentarily disappointed and then concerned (seriously).

Without walking you through each point, since you are a highly intelligent person who can read posts without interpretation, the points you were attacking were not made by me, and I don't recall others saying that. It is atheists in this forum who have questioned why humans need a "purpose" in life other than to exist (??). It was atheists who have said in this forum that "morality" is simply the result of evolutionary processes. It was atheists who have maintained that morality is relative to culture and cannot be judged in the context of other cultures. I could go on & on, but much of the "nonsense" you attacked as stereotypical characterizations of atheists came from self-identified atheists themselves. Not all atheists, of course...that would be just the type of paint-with-a-broad-brush characterization that we agree is unfair to anyone of any philosophical bent.

It is a salient point, though, to ask upon what basis someone rejecting higher authority formulates his/her ideas of morality. Is it from the person's "reason"? In that case, whose "reasoning" is correct...or are all equally correct? Who gets to decide? Might makes right? If one claims that his reasoning is superior to others, upon what basis is that judgment made? What gave that person 'superior' insight? Superior character or superior intelligence? If one was to accept either, then what is the source of that superior character/intellect, and how can one judge others' actions? If the source of "moral character" is NOT biological programming, then what is its source?

To dismiss all of these questions as "nonsense" is a too-convenient, pat answer. Why do questions about the source of morality for an atheist have to be perceived as an "attack" on all atheists? Where is the danger in answering the question honestly?

As far as the CATO link citing Shermer, did he consider the many examples in the Bible of people choosing their leaders by drawing lots, elections, etc. (particularly the New Testament church and the model for church government choosing its leaders through elections) as examples of democracy rather than "divine right of kings"? I know that doesn't address all of the issues of authority being instituted by God, but it also doesn't address the biblical command for believers to obey God first and then men (i.e., believers are not just permitted but required to disobey laws contrary to God's commands). But it just seemed that he was indicating that any sort of democratic rule was foreign to biblical times and only slowly emerged later.

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Old 01-13-15, 06:12 PM   #150
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Re: Brand-spanking New Atheist- & Christian-bashing thread

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The very words "God," "Christian," and other things mean very different things even to people eveb those who believe they are on the same side. So what anyone believes about the person who calls himself a Democrat is immaterial as you first have to find out what it means to that person. I know pro-choice Catholics. Likely we all do. This is the easiest example of how words mean different things to different people. For some Catholicism is no different than being Jewish, yet not religious, for many (movielib or Supermallet come to mind). For some, being Catholic is something you are for life, even if you are a lapsed one. I think that is silly, personally, but that is how it goes. So to actually have a fruitful discussion, I'd first check and see if you guys are even talking the same language.
That's a great example, and there are many more. Take Episcopalian Christians that welcome openly gay members in their congregation, even as leaders. Other Christian churches would never do those things and openly lobby to discriminate against gays like many used to do to people of color. As for those pro-choice Catholics, and even more that use (gasp!) birth control, some would have them thrown out and others just accept the differences.

So who gets to write the one and only Christian definition? The Pope, Martin Luther, Brigham Young, C.S. Lewis? The answer isn't important unless a person feels the need to tell others they only "claim" to be Christian, or want to throw out terms like Cafeteria Catholic, so I'm not trying to call you out, just asking a question.

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