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We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

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We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

Old 02-23-21, 07:23 PM
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

Originally Posted by Abob Teff View Post
Sometimes ... just sometimes ... when you hear hoofbeats, it's not a zebra and it actually is a horse.

Why are you discounting any cultural connection a group of people have to a character that has been around for 70 years? (I notice that you conveniently skip over any discussion of recasting Black Panther with a white actor.)

I have said that I absolutely agree a modern day reinvented Bond could be black ... and you would need to change the character and the backstory to make that happen. That is fine for some, but by advocating for that, you are discounting the culture he was created by/for and any connection they have to the character.

I absolutely agree that you could make the argument that the character has transcended that culture and become something different. If you even made the argument that Ian Fleming was a racist and that Bond needs to change because he is a dying breed of misogynistic and Imperialistic relic ... But you aren't making that argument; haven't made that argument. Make a valid point and you probably won't be wrong. But just calling everything racist is not a valid argument. Only boiling every single thing down to race is ... well, a racist viewpoint.

Characters, fictional and real, are born of their "lives" just like you and I. Those experiences (real and fictional) shape who that character is. Sometimes there are ways to make that character transcend it's original form. Sometimes there are cultural ties that limit that character to it's original form. Sometimes the material will support a change; sometimes it won't. It isn't just racist. (Not saying that racism doesn't exist and that isn't why some people take that stance.)
I think Draven covered Black Panther.

I’ll also refer to the video posted a couple times about the fallacy of reverse discrimination. For example it would not be inconsistent to suggest a black actor can play Bond while also saying a a white actor cannot play Black Panther.

I find if BS that you have to keep Bond consistent IN THIS ONE ISSUE but not others. For example, in the movies they have cut much of the over the top womanizing in early Bond. Recently “Bond women” have been strong, smart and not just there for eye candy and rescuing.

In our current times (meaning generations have not read the books or seen Sean Connery as Bond) I think you can absolutely and should consider a black actor as Bond.

As Black Panther, I agree with Draven. Disney/MCU was late the party for making a super hero relatable to a large segment of the population. Off the top of my head, I say no, I wouldn’t “want” a white Black Panther. Do I think it impossible? No.
Old 02-23-21, 07:48 PM
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

Originally Posted by B5Erik View Post
Bond can still be the same character in different points in time - the Marvel Comics sliding timescale is how you explained it for a couple decades.

But he can still be the SAME character, just plopped down in modern times. You would have to do a complete retcon of his upbringing and family history if you hired Elba.
And my point is, outside of Skyfall, who cares about his family history? It's not a defining aspect of the character. I'm pretty sure it's never mentioned in any movie besides Skyfall. Nobody is looking forward to the next Bond movie because they enjoy movies about the descendants of Scotch-English landed gentry.
Old 02-23-21, 07:51 PM
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

All this Bond talk has just conjured up mental images of that giant villain Jaws with the steel teeth. If he were black, the NAACP would probably implode with outrage.
Old 02-23-21, 07:53 PM
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

Originally Posted by B5Erik View Post
A black man cannot be the exact same character as a white man any more than I could portray a 6'8" basketball player. I'm 5'7", so I clearly wouldn't be the same guy as someone who is 6'8" or even 6'2". I can't be taller, so if part of the character is being tall, I can't play that character.
CGI could absolutely make you a 6'8 basketball player, even a black one. Although a terribly stereotypical portrayal in Tropic Thunder, contrary to popular belief, Robert Downy Jr is not a black man. We are talking about James Bond and movie roles right? Then you can definitely be 6'8. You can definitely be a basketball player. You can definitely be black. All of those things are 100% possible in a movie. Now I await the next goal post movement!
Old 02-23-21, 07:58 PM
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.usa...amp/4482434002

At least one Bond Producer says Bond could be played by a black actor. But not a woman.
Old 02-23-21, 08:20 PM
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

Originally Posted by JasonF View Post
And my point is, outside of Skyfall, who cares about his family history? It's not a defining aspect of the character. I'm pretty sure it's never mentioned in any movie besides Skyfall. Nobody is looking forward to the next Bond movie because they enjoy movies about the descendants of Scotch-English landed gentry.
Who?

Bond fans.

Bond fans are like Star Trek fans or Rush fans or KISS fans - they go over the minutiae in detail. It all means something to us. Why is Bond the way he is? What makes him Bond? Well, he was just on the outside of the upper crust aristocracy, but close enough to be an arrogant snob himself. It's not the kind of upbringing or personality a black man would have - Bond doesn't give a shit about anyone but himself (not really), and he only cares about getting the job done. He's never been wronged, so he's oblivious to wronging others on a personal level. He's not a racist, but he's oblivious as to how something he could say might offend someone.

He risks his life on every assignment, so he really doesn't care about offending people.
Old 02-23-21, 09:05 PM
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

Well crap, being a somewhat disinterested Bond watcher, I was unaware of his Scottish ancestry. As a child of the '70s and '80s, Roger Moore was my idea of Bond, but I don't buy him as a Scotsman for a freaking second. I probably need to rethink this. I don't believe anyone but a Scottish actor should play Bond going forward.
Old 02-23-21, 09:15 PM
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

Originally Posted by New Lurker View Post
CGI could absolutely make you a 6'8 basketball player, even a black one. Although a terribly stereotypical portrayal in Tropic Thunder, contrary to popular belief, Robert Downy Jr is not a black man. We are talking about James Bond and movie roles right? Then you can definitely be 6'8. You can definitely be a basketball player. You can definitely be black. All of those things are 100% possible in a movie. Now I await the next goal post movement!
You do realize if someone cast a white actor in a black role and then made him black via CGI there would be hell to pay on a PR level, right? That would be the modern equivalent of blackface.

Hell, even RDJ and the producers of Tropic Thunder got crap about that when it was all part of the joke to show how insensitive Hollywood could be.
Old 02-23-21, 09:53 PM
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

I think I would pay good money to witness some people take what they've written in this thread over the last week or so and for them to read it out loud to a person of color.

Here's a litmus test: if you wouldn't put it this way to a person of color when you say it to their face, yeah, it's probably not a good look. Maybe, like, racist, even?...

And before I'm accused of hypocrisy as a deflection, I have put my foot in my mouth plenty. Thankfully, I get to keep growing and learning every day.
Old 02-23-21, 10:35 PM
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

Originally Posted by story View Post
I think I would pay good money to witness some people take what they've written in this thread over the last week or so and for them to read it out loud to a person of color.

Here's a litmus test: if you wouldn't put it this way to a person of color when you say it to their face, yeah, it's probably not a good look. Maybe, like, racist, even?...

And before I'm accused of hypocrisy as a deflection, I have put my foot in my mouth plenty. Thankfully, I get to keep growing and learning every day.
Bingo, good post. The most important part is the growing and learning every day. We've all said or done things in our life times on the racism spectrum (hopefully just minor things). The real goal is to have an open mind on the subject and when you learn something you've done is offensive to people... to change. Don't be dug in. Don't be stubborn. Don't fight it. Accept responsibility for the mistake. Apologize. Move on with your new knowledge.
Old 02-23-21, 10:56 PM
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

Originally Posted by story View Post
I think I would pay good money to witness some people take what they've written in this thread over the last week or so and for them to read it out loud to a person of color.

Here's a litmus test: if you wouldn't put it this way to a person of color when you say it to their face, yeah, it's probably not a good look. Maybe, like, racist, even?...

And before I'm accused of hypocrisy as a deflection, I have put my foot in my mouth plenty. Thankfully, I get to keep growing and learning every day.

I have. It went much better than this thread in that it resulted in real conversation.
Old 02-24-21, 08:36 AM
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

Again, I’m not buying the disruption to the “continuity” argument. But for the sake of argument,

1) What are the other reasons a black actor cannot play Bond?
2) Is “continuity” the ultimate reason Bond films are successful? Is continuity an ultimate core element? Meaning would disrupting the continuity make an untenable Bond movie?

(that’s all assuming you couldn’t find a way to keep the continuity with a Black actor)

If “there are no other reasons” and “no continuity is not the ultimate core element” then continuity is not reason enough. Especially in this context. And especially for all gains and pluses it would add.

Again, it just smells of looking for any reason not to hire a black actor. And given history, not easy to dismiss. Continuity itself sounds itself sounds like history “we have never done that, so we can’t now”.


Last edited by Sdallnct; 02-24-21 at 08:51 AM.
Old 02-24-21, 09:14 AM
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

Originally Posted by B5Erik View Post
Why should we stop saying things should be equal now? Why is a color blind society not what we should be espousing?

See, I believe in judging people not by the color of their skin, or their orientation, or their gender, but rather the content of their character. Is this a person that I like, or is it not? Not based on stupid stuff they can't control (people can't control where they were born, who they were born to, how tall, short, ugly, good looking, etc, they are), but based on who they truly are as people. If someone's a jerk, I don't want to hang around them, period. Black, white, Asian, Hispanic, I gon't give a rat's ass, if he/she is a jerk I don't want to be around him/her. On the other hand, if someone's cool, has a good sense of humor, etc, then I'll hang around with them all day long, regardless of all that other junk.

That should absolutely be the goal for everyone. Don't choose friends, employees, etc, based on anything other than what counts. The stuff they can control.

When I see a black person I don't see black, I see a person. (OK, someone with a better tan than me, but that's my mom's fault - she's practically translucent!) Truth be told, I do find darker skin tones more appealing, aesthetically, but it doesn't make a lick of difference when it comes to how I judge people. I judge people based on who they are, how they act, and how they present themselves - regardless of any of that other stuff. Hell, I couldn't stand a lot of my brother's friends.

But I would like to know what you think the goal for society should be in regards to ethnicity. Do you really believe that whites should give up all political and economic power? And if so, for how long? I'm really curious. Or maybe, like I said, I just misinterpreted what you posted. Did I?
Originally Posted by B5Erik View Post
What am I going to do?

Again, you're deluding yourself into thinking that there is something I can do. I'm nobody. I have no position of authority or influence. All I can do is what I've always done - treat everyone the same and show the same respect to everyone.


As for that paragraph from the article, I respectfully disagree. And that's fine. There are going to be disagreements on this. I firmly believe that being as color blind as possible is what we need to shoot for. See PEOPLE, not ethnicity. We're ALL people. We're all the same in the most fundamental of ways. Judge people by WHO they are, not what their ethnic background is. That is what I believe we need to focus on.
Originally Posted by B5Erik View Post
Of course it exists, I never said it didn't.

Minorities deal with shit they never should have to. Believe me, it pisses me off - because then I'm lumped in with the racist assholes who happen to share MY skin color. That's why I'm so against judging people by color or ethnicity, because we're all unique individuals. None of us are exactly the same as anyone else in our, "Group."
Originally Posted by B5Erik View Post
Yes and no. Sure, I've got preconceived notions about people - depending on how they present themselves.

If people dress like gang bangers I tend to not have much respect for them, either because they're gang bangers or they're glorifying and promoting that kind of thing.

But it's based more on how they present themselves than their actual ethnicity.

Just like if I see a dirty, unwashed white guy who looks like a tweaker, I'm not going to think particularly highly of him, either.


My personal experience is this - the minorities (blacks, Hispanics, Asians, Middle Easterners) that I've worked with for the last 25 years are just like me. OK, not as good looking as I was (who was?), but otherwise...

Seriously, though, my experience is such that what minor differences we've had, culturally, are completely unimportant in the grand scheme of things. What we have in common (which is most things), and the fact that they're just people like anyone else, is what has shaped my view of minorities.

Ethnicity has nothing to do with intellect or character.
Originally Posted by B5Erik View Post
Spot on.

You get it.

No one can get past race/ethnicity if that's what we're always focusing on.
Originally Posted by B5Erik View Post
My choice is to not pre-judge anyone of any color. My choice is to take race out of the equation when interacting with people - we're all the same on the inside. I treat everyone with the same respect.
Originally Posted by B5Erik View Post
This is a point I don't get.

No one here treats people differently due to skin color or ethnic background. At least I would hope not...

So we are already ON the same page. We don't treat people differently because of something as unimportant as skin color. I mean, that really is utterly pathetic - treating people differently because of something as trivial as skin color. I mean, what could be more trivial? Hair color? Eye color? It's so absurd.

So, yeah, we're already on the same page.

And, yes, I do get it - I don't know what it's like to go through what minorities go through. I don't diminish the impact that has on their lives - but there isn't much I can do except lead as an example in how I treat others, which I've done all my life. I've never treated anyone differently because of skin color. That absolutely would be pathetic.
Originally Posted by B5Erik View Post

Sorry that when it comes to movies and TV shows I actually prefer consistency. James Bond has never been black, nor is his background that of a black man. He can't be black without being a different person altogether any more than any major black character can be played by a white man. Unless you're OK with that, too. Because of the changing of ethnicity and look of a character one way is OK, it has to be OK the other way, too. To say it's not would be the height of hypocrisy.

But Elba would be a phenomenal 005 or 009. I'd love to see a parallel movie series in the Bond universe. That would be even better for blacks in the UK and America - their OWN new character, not a hand me down that hints that studios don't believe in them. Remember Black Panther, how huge that was? Imagine an EQUAL of James Bond who was black and had his own series! That would be huge, too - and far more important since it would truly be their own, not a hand me down.
Originally Posted by B5Erik View Post

I'm just being real. This whole thread is about how the black experience (or Hispanic as well) is so different from the white experience. So, that being the case (and it IS the case), a black James Bond would NOT have the same life experiences that the white James Bond has had.

It's not fair, it's not right, and it should never have been that way. But it IS that way. So with different life experiences, a black James Bond would have some different attitudes than a white James Bond. JAMES BOND has never gone through racism or racial discrimination. That's part of who he is - he's not racist, but he's very cavalier in his attitudes towards life, women, race - none of it means much to Bond. Changing him to a black character would fundamentally change that cavalier attitude. He couldn't be that character who doesn't give a shit because he would HAVE to give a shit with those negative life experiences forging who he was.

So not only would it be a drastic, radical change to the look of James Bond, it would also be a fairly drastic change to the attitudes of James Bond. He would be a difference character - and I VERY much prefer some kind of continuity.

And, again, if you're against changing major black characters to white it's hypocritical to get on someone's case about preferring some kind of consistency and continuity.
Originally Posted by B5Erik View Post
If you truly believe that the black experience is NOT the same as the white experience (and it's not) then you HAVE to acknowledge that the character would be fundamentally changed by making him black. A black James Bond would have gone through racial discrimination, mistreatment, disrespect, bullying - stuff that James Bond, as a character, has never gone through. It would HAVE to change his attitudes and his personal beliefs. Significantly.

Failing to acknowledge that is disingenuous and hypocritical given almost everything you've posted in this thread.
Originally Posted by B5Erik View Post
See my comments above.

Bond can't be the same guy with the same attitudes if he grew up with systemic racism. That absolutely forges who you are as a person, and JAMES BOND is cavalier as fuck. He doesn't give two fucks about anything except doing the job. He treats everyone with equal contempt, regardless of race, gender, orientation - whatever. He doesn't give a shit.

A black man with power and authority like that would have to give a shit. His life experiences would be different than what forged James Bond into the cavalier, aloof, reckless person that he is.

This whole thread is all about that! Come on! You can't on one hand say that the life experiences of black people is so horrible at times that it warps their sense of justice, authority, power, fairness, etc, and then on the other hand say that it would make no difference to the character of James Bond if he grew up in that environment.

OF COURSE it would change the mindset of James Bond if he grew up in an environment like that! It would change ALL OF US. So this championing Elba to be Bond, while also saying he would be the same character is utter hypocrisy.
Originally Posted by Draven View Post
Bottom line is that if someone was truly "colorblind", they wouldn't even notice James Bond's race.
Originally Posted by B5Erik View Post
You could believe that if you could believe that I'm 6 foot 4.

That's the thing, there's suspension of disbelief, but this would go beyond that.

I wouldn't accept, as I've noted before, a freckle faced redhead as Bond, either. It's not race, it's an overall look and continuity. Ian Fleming set it. I prefer the most Fleming-esque Bond possible. That's why Dalton is my favorite Bond...
Originally Posted by B5Erik View Post
As I noted above, "White Privilege," is a fundamental part of who James Bond is.

So, yeah, you could cast Elba, but you'd have to change his backstory a lot, and make a lot of character/attitude changes, too.

He wouldn't be the exact same guy.
Originally Posted by B5Erik View Post
You don't think he is?

Then you really don't know the history of Bondmania. Tons of white men wanted to be Bond. He was their hero. He absolutely was a touchstone.

Do you not get that? Really??

Emphasis added by me. I went through all these threads again, not to pick on you B5Erik, but to show that hey, when you see someone who is black you aren't colorblind. I understand there is a difference between "judging" someone and assuming things, but there are a lot, and I mean a LOT, of assumptions you make about a black James Bond because he's black.

Or let me put it to you this way. Say you were in a position of power, and had sway over who would become the next James Bond. You "prefer" it to be a white guy because of continuity or whatever. Would that newly expanded federal agency come after you for discrimination?
Old 02-24-21, 09:45 AM
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

Originally Posted by fujishig View Post
Emphasis added by me. I went through all these threads again, not to pick on you B5Erik, but to show that hey, when you see someone who is black you aren't colorblind. I understand there is a difference between "judging" someone and assuming things, but there are a lot, and I mean a LOT, of assumptions you make about a black James Bond because he's black.

Or let me put it to you this way. Say you were in a position of power, and had sway over who would become the next James Bond. You "prefer" it to be a white guy because of continuity or whatever. Would that newly expanded federal agency come after you for discrimination?
Nice job. Well done.


Old 02-24-21, 10:48 AM
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

Originally Posted by story View Post
I think I would pay good money to witness some people take what they've written in this thread over the last week or so and for them to read it out loud to a person of color.

Here's a litmus test: if you wouldn't put it this way to a person of color when you say it to their face, yeah, it's probably not a good look. Maybe, like, racist, even?...

And before I'm accused of hypocrisy as a deflection, I have put my foot in my mouth plenty. Thankfully, I get to keep growing and learning every day.
I'm sorry I said what I did about Jaws and apologize for offending you.
Old 02-24-21, 11:38 AM
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

Originally Posted by fujishig View Post
Emphasis added by me. I went through all these threads again, not to pick on you B5Erik, but to show that hey, when you see someone who is black you aren't colorblind. I understand there is a difference between "judging" someone and assuming things, but there are a lot, and I mean a LOT, of assumptions you make about a black James Bond because he's black.

Or let me put it to you this way. Say you were in a position of power, and had sway over who would become the next James Bond. You "prefer" it to be a white guy because of continuity or whatever. Would that newly expanded federal agency come after you for discrimination?
Clearly, I'm in the wrong place. No amount of dissent or difference of opinion is allowed here. Having a different point of view, even one that is close to the one demanded by the group cannot and will not be tolerated. I didn't understand that before. I thought this was a place for actual discussion, where differences of opinion would be respected.

My mistake.


And, for the record, I personally think it's just common sense that a person can't spontaneously change ethnicity. I can't be a black man, a black man can't be me. That's not good, bad, or indifferent, it's just a fact of life. No ethnic group is better than any other, we're all the same on the inside, but on the outside we look different so I can't play the brother of a black man in a movie or on a TV show. That's not to say I couldn't act the part, but I just wouldn't look the part. And since Hollywood and the movie industry is all about IMAGE and looks, and since there is no way that Idris Elba can be the same person as Daniel Craig, I prefer continuity and consistency.

Some people apparently think that's a thinly veiled bit of racism, an accusation I find extremely offensive.

The idea that Idris Elba and Daniel Craig can't be the exact same person isn't racism, it's common sense. It's a scientific fact. Science and facts are supposed to be what this group supports, but I guess it's not - not if it's inconvenient to certain points of view and their associated philosophies.


I guess there is a presumption of guilt around here when anyone dares to have a point of view outside of the accepted groupthink. That's up to all of you. But that's why I've received multiple PM's from other board members who have told me that your attacks on me are exactly why they don't post in the Politics section anymore. A complete lack of tolerance for anything outside of the accepted views of the group. At the time I thought they were overreacting.

Not anymore.

Again, my mistake.

I sincerely apologize for posting here. I don't fit in the group. I should have recognized that sooner.
Old 02-24-21, 11:43 AM
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

Originally Posted by B5Erik View Post
Clearly, I'm in the wrong place. No amount of dissent or difference of opinion is allowed here. Having a different point of view, even one that is close to the one demanded by the group cannot and will not be tolerated. I didn't understand that before. I thought this was a place for actual discussion, where differences of opinion would be respected.

My mistake.


And, for the record, I personally think it's just common sense that a person can't spontaneously change ethnicity. I can't be a black man, a black man can't be me. That's not good, bad, or indifferent, it's just a fact of life. No ethnic group is better than any other, we're all the same on the inside, but on the outside we look different so I can't play the brother of a black man in a movie or on a TV show. That's not to say I couldn't act the part, but I just wouldn't look the part. And since Hollywood and the movie industry is all about IMAGE and looks, and since there is no way that Idris Elba can be the same person as Daniel Craig, I prefer continuity and consistency.

Some people apparently think that's a thinly veiled bit of racism, an accusation I find extremely offensive.

The idea that Idris Elba and Daniel Craig can't be the exact same person isn't racism, it's common sense. It's a scientific fact. Science and facts are supposed to be what this group supports, but I guess it's not - not if it's inconvenient to certain points of view and their associated philosophies.


I guess there is a presumption of guilt around here when anyone dares to have a point of view outside of the accepted groupthink. That's up to all of you. But that's why I've received multiple PM's from other board members who have told me that your attacks on me are exactly why they don't post in the Politics section anymore. A complete lack of tolerance for anything outside of the accepted views of the group. At the time I thought they were overreacting.

Not anymore.

Again, my mistake.

I sincerely apologize for posting here. I don't fit in the group. I should have recognized that sooner.
?

I didn't call you a racist. I didn't say that we can't have differences in opinion. What I'm saying is that you do have a bias when it comes to how someone looks.

But you know what? So do I. I'm just pointing out that it seems weird to me to say that you don't see race when you clearly do in this specific case, and adamantly so. And also pointing out why in general enforcement of "non bias" laws are probably impossible.
Old 02-24-21, 11:58 AM
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

So we have a black actor play Bond it will mess up consistency? It will be disruptive.

Even if true, is that reason enough to not do it? Which reminds me of one of my favorite quick bite West Wing vids.

(Still not understanding how old Sean Connery can be the “exact same person” as a young, ripped Daniel Craig, but a Black actor can’t be Daniel Craig.)


Last edited by Sdallnct; 02-24-21 at 12:04 PM.
Old 02-24-21, 12:12 PM
  #12919  
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

Originally Posted by B5Erik View Post
The idea that Idris Elba and Daniel Craig can't be the exact same person isn't racism, it's common sense. It's a scientific fact. Science and facts are supposed to be what this group supports, but I guess it's not - not if it's inconvenient to certain points of view and their associated philosophies.
By that exact same logic, Daniel Craig and Sean Connery can't be the same person either. It's common sense, a scientific fact!
So why are you okay with that, but not the other?
Old 02-24-21, 12:13 PM
  #12920  
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

Originally Posted by B5Erik View Post
Clearly, I'm in the wrong place. No amount of dissent or difference of opinion is allowed here. Having a different point of view, even one that is close to the one demanded by the group cannot and will not be tolerated. I didn't understand that before. I thought this was a place for actual discussion, where differences of opinion would be respected.

My mistake.


And, for the record, I personally think it's just common sense that a person can't spontaneously change ethnicity. I can't be a black man, a black man can't be me. That's not good, bad, or indifferent, it's just a fact of life. No ethnic group is better than any other, we're all the same on the inside, but on the outside we look different so I can't play the brother of a black man in a movie or on a TV show. That's not to say I couldn't act the part, but I just wouldn't look the part. And since Hollywood and the movie industry is all about IMAGE and looks, and since there is no way that Idris Elba can be the same person as Daniel Craig, I prefer continuity and consistency.

Some people apparently think that's a thinly veiled bit of racism, an accusation I find extremely offensive.

The idea that Idris Elba and Daniel Craig can't be the exact same person isn't racism, it's common sense. It's a scientific fact. Science and facts are supposed to be what this group supports, but I guess it's not - not if it's inconvenient to certain points of view and their associated philosophies.


I guess there is a presumption of guilt around here when anyone dares to have a point of view outside of the accepted groupthink. That's up to all of you. But that's why I've received multiple PM's from other board members who have told me that your attacks on me are exactly why they don't post in the Politics section anymore. A complete lack of tolerance for anything outside of the accepted views of the group. At the time I thought they were overreacting.

Not anymore.

Again, my mistake.

I sincerely apologize for posting here. I don't fit in the group. I should have recognized that sooner.
Until the next time
Old 02-24-21, 12:20 PM
  #12921  
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

A couple thoughts. 'Seeing Color' doesn't have to mean judging people. It can and should mean recognizing and understanding differences in general, and being cool with that. I think if you treat people with respect and kindness regardless of skin color, that should be expected, but if a person says 'hey we're all just the same under the skin' that ignores a vast section of societal discourse, and in that respect is naive.

Some of the Bond talk - at least the iron-clad 'Bond can NEVER be black' might have aspects of implicit bias in it, and I'm on record here as believing all Americans have implicit bias, including myself, due to the country in which we live.

Me, jumping around like David Naughton in Trafalgar Square in American Werewolf in London, "I have implicit biases! Fuck! Shit!" - acknowledging that as a white person, I must always work on them.
Old 02-24-21, 12:31 PM
  #12922  
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

Originally Posted by B5Erik View Post
The idea that Idris Elba and Daniel Craig can't be the exact same person isn't racism, it's common sense. It's a scientific fact. Science and facts are supposed to be what this group supports, but I guess it's not - not if it's inconvenient to certain points of view and their associated philosophies.
But here's the problem - you want a world where people don't see color, right?

That means you have to let things like James Bond's ethnicity go. It needs to happen with Superman too. And Sherlock Holmes. And Jesus Christ. If everything that has already been established is too sacred to change when it comes to representation in the arts, then we'll keep having white James Bonds and Supermen until the end of time. And only new characters will be able to be different ethnicities.

This means that no non-white child will ever see themselves reflected as Superman or James Bond. Is "continuity" worth that to you? Do you think it's worth that to a kid?

Characters like Superman and James Bond and the white version of Jesus were established BY WHITE MEN. But all of those creations have moved way past both their creators and the times they were created.

I am not calling you a racist, but you can't expect to be taken seriously when you say "I don't see color" followed by "well don't change THAT".
Old 02-24-21, 04:36 PM
  #12923  
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

The last few posts nailed it. I'm not gonna top those. But I do have a few notes to add. Even if it is just screaming into the void lol.

Originally Posted by B5Erik View Post
And since Hollywood and the movie industry is all about IMAGE and looks, and since there is no way that Idris Elba can be the same person as Daniel Craig, I prefer continuity and consistency.
I'll even take race out of this example. Michael Keaton isn't Val Kilmer. It's just science. They can't be the same person. But they are. Batman. They are the same exact character in movies only 2 years apart, unlike your weird science defying 60 year age gap Bond examples. But Keaton & Kilmer... one's a brunette ones a blonde. They just can't be the same person because of science and shit right?

Originally Posted by B5Erik View Post
Some people apparently think that's a thinly veiled bit of racism, an accusation I find extremely offensive.
So which is more offensive? People rightly or wrongly thinking your actions have a veiled racism bias, or actually being biased based on race? My answer is actual bias based on race. Your answer may vary I guess. But the excellent post above by fujishig lays out a very credible case for why people see the veiled bias in your posts and your lack of personal continuity.

Originally Posted by B5Erik View Post
Clearly, I'm in the wrong place. No amount of dissent or difference of opinion is allowed here. Having a different point of view, even one that is close to the one demanded by the group cannot and will not be tolerated. I didn't understand that before. I thought this was a place for actual discussion, where differences of opinion would be respected. A complete lack of tolerance for anything outside of the accepted views of the group.
Dude. I don't know how else to break through to you. YOU don't get to decide what is or isn't accepted by society. SOCIETY does. If you hold an opinion that a movie is good or bad and we disagree, cool. We can agree to disagree and continue to hold our views and go on our happy way. But when you're bucking the norms of our society and disagree with standard accepted thought processes, people aren't just gonna be like oh cool. This is an extreme example to demonstrate my point. But if you were all about being a cannibal and eating humans, that's fucking weird and wrong. You shouldn't expect people to just be like welp okay agree to disagree but was cool exchanging discussion with you.

That's essentially what's happening. You're saying racial discrimination is bad across the board, excepttttt this one place. And we're all like nah man it's bad across the board with no exceptions. The only person that cares about a black James Bond here is you. You cite that other Bondophiles or whatever agree with you. And that may even be true. But Bondophiles are a MUCH smaller subset of people than society at large. So it kinda doesn't matter what your crew wants. Bondophiles < Societal Norms. It ALSO lacks consistency with your own posts claiming not to see color. Which is why the general consensus in here is that you're not being rational with you point of view.

And for the record none of us are claiming moral superiority. We all make mistakes. We've all been guilty of doing things that are racially insensitive. No one is perfect. But when the light bulb goes on and people tell ya man you're in the wrong... you gotta be open to the possibility you're in the wrong sometimes. How the fuck have you gotten this far in life being so closed minded and stubborn??
Old 02-24-21, 07:01 PM
  #12924  
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

Originally Posted by JasonF View Post
And my point is, outside of Skyfall, who cares about his family history? It's not a defining aspect of the character. I'm pretty sure it's never mentioned in any movie besides Skyfall. Nobody is looking forward to the next Bond movie because they enjoy movies about the descendants of Scotch-English landed gentry.
Originally Posted by B5Erik View Post
Who?

Bond fans.

Bond fans are like Star Trek fans or Rush fans or KISS fans - they go over the minutiae in detail. It all means something to us. Why is Bond the way he is? What makes him Bond? Well, he was just on the outside of the upper crust aristocracy, but close enough to be an arrogant snob himself. It's not the kind of upbringing or personality a black man would have - Bond doesn't give a shit about anyone but himself (not really), and he only cares about getting the job done. He's never been wronged, so he's oblivious to wronging others on a personal level. He's not a racist, but he's oblivious as to how something he could say might offend someone.

He risks his life on every assignment, so he really doesn't care about offending people.
I guess Erik is gone from this thread, but maybe you're reading this so I might as well say what I have to say.

My point was, imagine if you showed Bond fans two movies.

Movie One features a descendant of Scots-English landed gentry and is focused on his internal turmoil as he reconciles his image of his mother with his growing realization that during his entire childhood, she was carrying on an affair with the town doctor. Meanwhile, his father, who was slowly drinking himself to death, realized he was in love with another man, but never acted on it. All of this plays out in flashbacks as our protagonist grapples with his own sexuality, realizing that he is in love with another man just as his father was. At the end of the film, he casts away his preconceptions of who he should be and professes his love to the man. The protagonist is named James Bond and is played by Daniel Craig.

Movie Two features a spy in service of the British government. He is assigned to rescue a scientist being held captive in China or, if he cannot rescue the scientist, kill him before the Chinese can torture him into revealing what he knows about a new codebreaking machine. The spy, after being outfitted with cutting edge technology, travels to China where he learns the scientist has been tortured to death but not before helping the Chinese develop a device which will allow them to hack into any computer system. The spy learns the device is on a boat being transported across the Pacific; with the aid of a (sexy female) Taiwanese double-agent, he hijacks a plane and intercepts the boat, fighting the Chinese Army crew and ultimately destroying the device and saving the world. The protagonist is named James Bond and is played by Idris Elba.

I'd be willing to bet 99.99999% of Bond fans would tell me Movie Two sounds like a James Bond movie and Movie One does not. And if you agree, that tells me you agree the spycraft and action and M and Q and the globetrotting and the bond girls and the world in peril are what make Bond, not the detail of him being Scots-English.
Old 02-24-21, 07:45 PM
  #12925  
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

Originally Posted by B5Erik View Post
I wouldn't accept, as I've noted before, a freckle faced redhead as Bond, either.


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