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We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

Old 02-01-18, 04:12 AM
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

The Cleveland logo is clearly more offensive than the Washington logo. Even those totally unfamiliar with the team names (or "nicknames") could see that at a glance. The former is a caricature with exaggerated physical characteristics; the latter is a flattering, realistic portrait.

The logo/mascot/nickname controversies should better be addressed in light of the appropriateness of choosing races to represent sports teams. It's especially egregious (and sadly ironic) to note that members of those races would have had a hard time finding a spot on some of those same teams.

It's often been pointed out that no one would seriously consider having the Nashville Negroes, the Chicago Caucasians, the Jacksonville Japanese, Indianapolis Inuits, Houston Hispanics, etc. as appropriate names for sports teams. So why are "Indians" considered fair game?

Which of these images would be appropriate as the basis for a team logo:

Image 1:
Spoiler:


Image 2:
Spoiler:


Is the correct response Image 1, Image 2, or neither?

What if an owner wanted to have the Seattle Samurai as the team nickname for a sports team? Would that be acceptable? Would it be acceptable to have a stereotypical, caricature of a Japanese figure or to have a realistic-looking image? Is it racist to have Vikings represent Minnesota? Where does one draw the line at mascots involving groups of people connected to nationalities/ethnicities (historical or current)?

Last edited by creekdipper; 02-01-18 at 05:09 AM.
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Old 02-01-18, 04:55 AM
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

Here's an interesting article (apologies if it has previously been posted by others.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry...b0ee8ec3694042

It's entitled "The Great Danger When Blacks Commit Racist Acts.

Published on Huffington Post, authored by a co-host of the former Al Sharpton Show who has an Amazon Kindle book titled "The Impeachment of President Trump?").
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Old 02-01-18, 07:28 AM
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

Originally Posted by creekdipper View Post
What if an owner wanted to have the Seattle Samurai as the team nickname for a sports team? Would that be acceptable? Would it be acceptable to have a stereotypical, caricature of a Japanese figure or to have a realistic-looking image? Is it racist to have Vikings represent Minnesota? Where does one draw the line at mascots involving groups of people connected to nationalities/ethnicities (historical or current)?
The line is “is this a slur or a derogatory name for a race?”
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Old 02-01-18, 07:38 AM
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

Originally Posted by Draven View Post
The line is “is this a slur or a derogatory name for a race?”
Okay, let's take that premise. Let's assume that Caucasian, Hispanic, African-American, and Asian, are not offensive to most. Or even use "white" and "black" if those are not deemed offensive.

Going back to an earlier question, would "Anaheim African-Americans" be acceptable? Or Houston Hispanics? Or Washington Whites?

IMO, it's not whether the term used is offensive. The entire idea of using a race as a mascot is inherently offensive. I'm not a big fan of terms such as "cultural misappropriation" when it applies to food, hairstyles, music, clothing, etc., but it does seem perfectly applicable to use the actual name of a race to designate a team. Even if the players are all one race, they presumably represent an entire community.

If a local volleyball team made up entirely of Native Americans want to call themselves the Chiefs, they are only representing themselves. But for an entire city to use that name? Every time I see FSU using the "tomahawk chop," I see that as an offensive gesture. Sure, other races used tomahawks...but you don't see Patriots fans using it, although some Continental soldiers carried those weapons. The fans might as well cover their mouths with their hands and do the "Woo-woo-woo" sounds (they do the "Indian" chants).

Should they be doing that?

Last edited by creekdipper; 02-01-18 at 07:43 AM.
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Old 02-01-18, 07:52 AM
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

...do you really not know the answer? That’s concerning.
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Old 02-01-18, 07:58 AM
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

Originally Posted by Draven View Post
The line is “is this a slur or a derogatory name for a race?”
Originally Posted by Draven View Post
...do you really not know the answer? That’s concerning.
Are you just joking again, or are you seriously trying to turn a discussion into some sort of partisan thing? The latter would be concerning.

It would also be "concerning" if you don't recognize a rhetorical question, especially given the preceding paragraphs making it clear that the person asking the question did not approve of any use of races as mascots.

Look at your first quote above. Do you still feel that the "line" is whether the name is considered "a slur or a derogatory name?" Or would you like to rethink that in light of the examples given?
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Old 02-01-18, 08:04 AM
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

Why should I respond to your hypotheticals? No one is going to name a team the “Houston Hispanics”. If they do, we can talk about it. We already have examples of teams with specifically Native American slurs and slang for names. Those are the only ones worth discussing.

As for your views on cultural appropriation, I am not surprised you’re not a “big fan” because you aren’t someone who ever has to deal with it.
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Old 02-01-18, 08:11 AM
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

Originally Posted by Draven View Post
Why should I respond to your hypotheticals? No one is going to name a team the “Houston Hispanics”. If they do, we can talk about it. We already have examples of teams with specifically Native American slurs and slang for names. Those are the only ones worth discussing.

As for your views on cultural appropriation, I am not surprised you’re not a “big fan” because you aren’t someone who ever has to deal with it.
Nevermind. My mistake trying to discuss the issue with you objectively.

And we wonder about "partisan divides."

Evidently, since you refuse to discuss ACTUAL names and don't appear to understand how analogies work, you think that FSU Seminoles, Kansas City Chiefs, Atlanta Braves, or any other team at any level using a race-based name is acceptable as long as the term isn't considered "a slur," "derogatory," of "slang." That's as far as you would go in drawing the line per your words.

I hate to infer things, but your refusal to answer doesn't leave much choice. Apparently, you'd rather focus on why someone making a taco and selling it is misappropriating someone else's culture.

You also seem to make a lot of assumptions about other's cultural background, but that's not the issue. That's a deflection.

This is why we can't have nice things.
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Old 02-01-18, 08:18 AM
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

Would you walk up to a Native American in real life and say “Hey there, Chief”?
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Old 02-01-18, 08:42 AM
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

Originally Posted by Draven View Post
Would you walk up to a Native American in real life and say “Hey there, Chief”?
A random stranger? No.

A friend who goes by that nickname? I actually know a Native American who goes by that name. He introduces himself by that name.

But I've heard people use that term as a slur to address Native Americans, and it was intended (and taken) as an insult. In fact, we've all seen it in tv and movies repeatedly. And even as kids, we understood the difference when it was used to address a person's actual tribal position and when it was used as a demeaning term.

Now, the question is whether you find the term offensive. Bear in mind that your "hypothetical" was using the term to address someone. Would you go up and say, "Hey, Seminole" or "Hey, Brave?" For that matter, would you go up and address a broad-shouldered, blonde man with an accent as "Hey, Viking!" The situation changes the intent. Why would you address someone that way except to stereotype them? Saying, "Hey, Yankee" might be offensive depending upon who said it to whom, tone or voice, familiarity, intent, etc.

Even when a person is actually a member of a group, you wouldn't go up to a stranger and say, "Hey, Sioux" or "Hey, Apache," would you? And yet those terms aren't inherently derogatory in other contexts; in fact, they would simply be factual. Not so with "redskins" or "squaws."

And that gets back to the question. Is it ever appropriate to use a name of a racial group for a sports team (that is not specifically made up of members of that group), regardless of whether the term is a slur or not?

To me, it's a rhetorical question and the answer is a definite "No." I'm interested in hearing other opinions from other posters, though, to see why they disagree.
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Old 02-01-18, 09:49 AM
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

Sports contests can be viewed as battles.
Native American warriors have a reputation of being superior fighters and are admired for their skill in battle. They were the Seal Team 6 of their time.
Sports teams want a name that equates with badass, so they choose a name associated with Native Americans.
In the past some of these names were poorly chosen. No one thought much of it at the time just like they thought nothing of the portrayal of Native Americans in cartoons and movies. We know better now.
Some of the names were chosen in tribute to the Native American warrior.
Why was the Apache helicopter given it's name? Because Apache warriors are badass motherfuckers and if you mess with one he's going to fuck you up.
Just like a tomahawk will ruin your day, a Tomahawk missile will do the same.
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Old 02-01-18, 10:00 AM
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

Originally Posted by rw2516 View Post
Sports contests can be viewed as battles.
Native American warriors have a reputation of being superior fighters and are admired for their skill in battle. They were the Seal Team 6 of their time.
Sports teams want a name that equates with badass, so they choose a name associated with Native Americans.
In the past some of these names were poorly chosen. No one thought much of it at the time just like they thought nothing of the portrayal of Native Americans in cartoons and movies. We know better now.
Some of the names were chosen in tribute to the Native American warrior.
Why was the Apache helicopter given it's name? Because Apache warriors are badass motherfuckers and if you mess with one he's going to fuck you up.
Just like a tomahawk will ruin your day, a Tomahawk missile will do the same.
As you say. We know better now. There were lots of “acceptable” things “back in the day”. But we strive to improve and hopefully strive to correct our wrongs.

There are things we are doing to day that many feel is perfectly acceptable. Coming generations will look back and can’t believe what we did and strive to correct.
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Old 02-01-18, 10:21 AM
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

Totally agree that the intent may be benign or even meant as a tribute to honor a specific group. Someone might want to honor the fierce Zulu warriors. The problem, as I see it, lies in the identification of other groups with a particular group's heritage...not just the names but also symbols, rituals, music, etc. We see mascots dressed in traditional clothing and fans treating objects that had (and to many, still have) deep spiritual significance as souvenirs and props for a contest. It seems quite different from those using past historical groups (49ers, Cavaliers, Musketeers, Trojans, Vikings, Pirates) as their mascots.
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Old 02-01-18, 11:20 AM
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

Originally Posted by Sdallnct View Post
As you say. We know better now. There were lots of “acceptable” things “back in the day”. But we strive to improve and hopefully strive to correct our wrongs.

There are things we are doing to day that many feel is perfectly acceptable. Coming generations will look back and can’t believe what we did and strive to correct.

Exactly. Despite being far less offensive than the Redskins team name/nickname, and the Chief Wahoo logo, other team names/nicknames like Indians, Braves, and Chiefs could be phased out it similar ways over the years. It's already happened quite often where the changes were far easier to make. Pretty much all the schools in this area that formally had Native American related names/nicknames/mascots dropped them and went with something new. I'm sure the same is true in other areas.
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Old 02-01-18, 12:12 PM
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

Originally Posted by grundle View Post
The team that I hate the most is Cookies With Raisins That Look Like Chocolate Chips. Every week I buy one of their jerseys and burn it.

This is a reference to the TV show Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt.

Some people wanted the Washington Redskins to change their name. They told the owners of the team that people who like a team only buy one jersey and wear it for the rest of their life, while people who hate a team buy a jersey and burn it every week. So they were trying to come up with names of things that people hate, and one suggestion was "Cookies With Raisins That Look Like Chocolate Chips." But ultimately, the new name they chose for the team was the Washington Gun Grabbers.
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Old 02-01-18, 03:14 PM
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

Originally Posted by Sdallnct View Post
As you say. We know better now. There were lots of “acceptable” things “back in the day”. But we strive to improve and hopefully strive to correct our wrongs.

There are things we are doing to day that many feel is perfectly acceptable. Coming generations will look back and can’t believe what we did and strive to correct.


You KNOW better, you DO better
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Old 02-01-18, 04:19 PM
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

Originally Posted by Draven View Post
Would you walk up to a Native American in real life and say “Hey there, Chief”?
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Old 02-01-18, 09:03 PM
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

Why do we call them "native Americans" when their ancestors crossed the Bering Straight from Russia?

Why don't we call them "Russian Americans"?
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Old 02-01-18, 09:08 PM
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

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Old 02-02-18, 08:55 AM
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

Originally Posted by grundle View Post
Why do we call them "native Americans" when their ancestors crossed the Bering Straight from Russia?

Why don't we call them "Russian Americans"?
You've got a point, we should just all call ourselves Pangaeans.

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Old 02-02-18, 09:04 AM
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

Originally Posted by Why So Blu? View Post
That's awesome. Sadly it applies far more often these days.
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Old 02-02-18, 05:19 PM
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

Originally Posted by inri222 View Post
You've got a point, we should just all call ourselves Pangaeans. [/IMG]
Has a nice ring to it.

Edenites would be more accurate, though, and more universally applicable.
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Old 02-02-18, 05:30 PM
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

Thetans might be more likely, depending on who you ask!
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Old 02-02-18, 07:03 PM
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

Originally Posted by Dan View Post
Thetans might be more likely, depending on who you ask!
Thanks a lot.

Just when I thought I had successfully forever blocked the image of Travolta in dreads with snot running out of his nose....
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Old 02-03-18, 07:33 AM
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

A student at George Washington University recently posted the following image online. The student is holding up a banana peel, and the caption says "I'm 1/16 black."




On a racial offensiveness scale of of 0 to 10, I'd rate this as a 1. Others here may disagree. But if you do disagree, then please cite something else which is less racially offensive, but which is not a 0. Because I really do think that this is about the least racially offensive thing (other than a 0) that someone could do.

Well, of course, the social justice warriors have gone way overboard. The student's sorority issued a statement apologizing to "those who have been harmed."

Spoiler:

https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/l...472247113.html

Racist Snapchat Post Sparks Outrage Among George Washington University Students

"The image was disturbing, hurtful and not reflective of who I know we are," the university's provost said

February 1, 2018

Three members of a George Washington University sorority will be kicked out of the chapter after a picture showing a racist message circulated on social media.

The photo appears to show two Alpha Phi sorority members. One is holding up a banana peel and the caption reads: “[Name]: ‘I’m 1/16 black.'”

The sorority said the picture was posted by one of its members and contained two other members.

The chapter posted an apology on its Facebook page Friday morning.

"We recognize that there are issues within our organization relating to our privilege and lack of diversity, and we are committed to listening to the voices of those who have been harmed by the actions of those individuals and by our actions as a chapter," the statement read.

The sorority says the members in question are in the process of having their memberships terminated.

The GW Hatchet first reported the photo after students took to social media to call on university leaders to respond.

Imani Ross, a senator for the school's Student Association, tweeted the photo in question Wednesday night and noted the start of Black History Month.

The school responded to her tweet, saying it would "look into it."

"University administrators have begun the process of investigating and handling the matter," Ross told News4.


She said students in the multicultural community held a meeting Thursday night to "discuss further actions regarding issues related to diversity and inclusion."

"This incident is deeply troubling, especially after Alpha Phi recently attended a diversity training on campus this past month,” Ross said.

George Washington University Provost Forrest Maltzman said since the report, there has been an active dialogue with the national headquarters of Alpha Phi and students on campus who have been affected.

"There was an entirely inappropriate posting on social media last night. Whatever the circumstance, or true intention of those involved, the image was disturbing, hurtful and not reflective of who I know we are as a community," Maltzman said in a statement.

"Unfortunately, racially charged incidents including bananas and Black students continue to arise at college campuses across the country," the GW Black Student Union said in an Instagram post.

"I wasn't surprised at all, I mean, it happens a lot. It's happened all across the country so it didn't surprise me at all. It's hurtful, but not surprising," Frederick Ryle, the president of the GW Black Student Union, told News4 on Friday.

"There's a bunch of different feelings, but at the end of the day, it's bringing us together to make our community stronger, so, I'm here for it," Ryle said.

Other students said they supported the sorority's move to terminate the membership of the students involved, but more needs to be done.

"The university needs to be taking care of this, not just the students of color or, like, black organization leaders. This isn't really our job. We're just here to get an education. This is really their job, so we're just pushing them to be able to address it," sophomore Simone Hunter-Hobson said.

New4 has reached out to Alpha Phi International for comment but has not yet heard back.


"Harmed" by this photo?

Seriously?

And even worse, the school is launching an "investigation."

An investigation? Because of a stupid picture with a stupid caption, on someone'e own personal webpage, which does not threaten any physical harm to anyone, and which is not breaking any laws?

That’s going way, way overboard.

How about the school just do nothing?

Or better yet, how about the school issue a statement that says freedom of speech applies to everyone, and that the photo was on a personal webpage which has nothing to do with the school, and that anyone who is genuinely traumatized should seek counseling, – not because of the image itself, but instead, because of the their irrational overreaction to the image?

Last edited by grundle; 02-03-18 at 08:03 AM.
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