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We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

Old 08-20-17, 06:37 PM
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

Originally Posted by mspmms View Post
That is an interesting question, and I have some others - who put up these monuments, were they of any particular political party?
I made my post before I read yours.
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Old 08-20-17, 06:39 PM
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

Originally Posted by Sdallnct View Post
That's not what the video shows. What it shows is them interpreting the Bible to match what they believe.

You personally can say they are "doing the opposite" of what the Bible says. But how did you come about that? Based on your interpretation?
Sdall, did you look up the scripture "reference" they cited? They cited an actual book, chapter, and verse from the Bible but then just threw in words that don't exist in any translation. That's what they based their entire argument upon...words that don't exist.

That's not "interpretation." That's writing your own document.

If someone quoted the Constitution about the right to bear arms and then added "and to shoot those acting in a threatening manner," would you argue with their "interpretation?" Or would you say, "Now, hold on there...that's not even in the Constitution?"

As for "interpretation" of what actually is there, when Jesus says "Love your neighbor," if someone says that means to hate your neighbor, do you then say, "Well, I guess it could mean that?" Or do you apply standard definitions, rules of language, etc.? If not, then anything can mean anything. A white supremacist could argue that he/she is actually saying that minorities are superior. You wouldn't accept that "interpretation," would you? No, you'd look at what the words they say actually mean to most people.

As said earlier, people can "interpret" anything any way they like. That doesn't make their interpretation credible. And just making up words that aren't in documents has never been regarded as a credible means of interpretation for anything...marriage vows, legal terms, political legislation, peace treaties, etc.
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Old 08-20-17, 06:40 PM
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

Originally Posted by grundle View Post
The reason they should also want to disband their own party is for the same reason they want to get rid of the statues: both were created based on their support for slavery.
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Old 08-20-17, 06:43 PM
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

Had to make up words to get those original documents.
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Old 08-20-17, 06:44 PM
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

I don't really give a shit about the Dems vs Repubs argument, but it's incredibly disingenuous to say that this is on current Democrats when virtually all the Democrats who supported Jim Crow or opposed the CRA or VRA became Republicans in the '70s when Nixon employed the Southern Strategy.

There is no way you can look at Donald Trump and the GOP leadership and argue that this is the same party as Lincoln's, unless you are being disingenuous or deeply brainwashed by propaganda.
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Old 08-20-17, 06:47 PM
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

Originally Posted by Kurtie Dee View Post
"It would seem that neo confederates in some fashion wish to memorialize a failed political movement founded on racism, and their greatest activity was during the civil rights movement. Totally benign!"

The above is a two-part sentence, Creekdipper. The first part speculates that neo-confederates wish to "memorialize a political movement founded on racism". Inasmuch as the purpose of their group is to memorialize and honor the confederacy, we can assume that's what they do.

The second part of the sentence talks about the heyday of their activity, the 1960s. It shouldn't be hard to understand, but, as you like to say
I wasn't clear in my question...my mistake. I was wondering if the "so benign" referred to their past activities of establishing memorials or their current activities of keeping the memorializing traditions alive...or both.

I'd guess both, but it seemed that your emphasis was on their past activities as being more actively hostile. I was trying to figure out if you made a distinction about the level offensiveness of different eras (obviously, you disapprove of them both now and in the past).

Edit: I don't have any firsthand knowledge of DOC and was just curious about the mention of them. Don't expect that they have much (if any) influence on current debates, so I'm really not all that interested in them and suspect that you may feel the same, so enough about them as far as I'm concerned.

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Old 08-20-17, 06:48 PM
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

I was quite surprised by this.

According to a poll conducted by NPR and PBS, 44% of blacks think the confederate statues should remain, 40% think they should be taken down, and 16% were unsure.

So, of blacks who expressed an opinion, more are in favor of having the statues stay than taking them down. I find this to be quite surprising.

See page 11 of this PDF:

http://maristpoll.marist.edu/wp-cont...17,%202017.pdf

Last edited by grundle; 08-20-17 at 07:10 PM.
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Old 08-20-17, 06:48 PM
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

Disingenuous or obtuse. One of the two.
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Old 08-20-17, 06:53 PM
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

Originally Posted by grundle View Post
I was quite surprised by this.

According to a poll conducted by NPR and PBS, 44% of blacks think the confederate statues should remain, 40% think they should be taken down, and 16% were unsure.

So, of those who expressed an opinion, more are in favor of having them stay than taking them down. I find this to be quite surprising.
56 of 125 surveyed blacks said this. A whopping 56 total black people said this. I am sure this percentage will remain the same when millions of them are asked.
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Old 08-20-17, 06:56 PM
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

Originally Posted by Supermallet View Post
There is no way you can look at Donald Trump and the GOP leadership and argue that this is the same party as Lincoln's, unless you are being disingenuous or deeply brainwashed by propaganda.
I just said this in one of the other threads. It's 2017. I don't care who's brand thought what 50 or 100+ years ago. White supremacists and Nazis have latched onto the Republican Party. Not the Democratic Party, or a 3rd party (which is where they, and Trump really belong). The alt-right had significant influence on the outcome of elections. And they're using perverted ideologies within the Republican Party to advance their agenda. This is a problem for the Republican Party. When Nazis and white supremacists start voting Democrat, it will be a problem for the Democratic Party.
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Old 08-20-17, 07:27 PM
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

Originally Posted by Troy Stiffler View Post
I just said this in one of the other threads. It's 2017. I don't care who's brand thought what 50 or 100+ years ago. White supremacists and Nazis have latched onto the Republican Party. Not the Democratic Party, or a 3rd party (which is where they, and Trump really belong). The alt-right had significant influence on the outcome of elections. And they're using perverted ideologies within the Republican Party to advance their agenda. This is a problem for the Republican Party. When Nazis and white supremacists start voting Democrat, it will be a problem for the Democratic Party.
True.
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Old 08-20-17, 08:23 PM
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

I'm curious to hear whoever did this explain why they did it:


http://chicago.suntimes.com/chicago-politics/674297/

Alderman says Lincoln bust in West Englewood burned

August 17, 2017



Ald. Ray Lopez (15th) on Thursday accused President Donald Trump of emboldening vandals to set fire to a bust of Abraham Lincoln that has stood as a symbol of freedom in West Englewood for nearly a century.

Lopez said Trump’s widely condemned decision to twice blame “both sides” for the white nationalist rally that turned deadly in Virginia has emboldened haters.

“When you have a President who, from his point of moral authority as leader of the free world, condones the actions of white supremacists, neo-Nazis … when he refuses to refute what their actions are — you embolden people to continue,” Lopez said Thursday. “Now, you’re giving them a path to come out and be as anger-filled as they want to be.”

Lopez said he learned the Lincoln bust was spray-painted black two weeks ago, then vandalized again two days ago. In the second incident, the bust was “covered in tar, wrapped in roofing paper and set on fire,” the alderman said, noting that Chicago Police are investigating.

Lopez also has fired off an email to Cultural Affairs and Special Events Commissioner Mark Kelly requesting a copy of the city’s “public art program registry.”

The alderman wants to know how many other statues and paintings the city owns that may be vulnerable, either to defacement or as targets for removal because of their ties to Confederate figures.

And he wants to open a “public discussion on the fate” of those pieces “immediately and quickly” — before vigilantes take matters into their own hands.

“I understand the deep-seated anger induced by those reminders of slavery and oppression and want our city to be ahead of the curve in addressing that emotion,” Lopez wrote in his email.

He added: “I was hoping we could get ahead of the curve and not behind the racist eight-ball that’s fueling a lot of the anger and demonstrations that we’re seeing in other parts of the country.”

Kelly could not be reached for comment.

A West Englewood resident interviewed Thursday speculated that some burn damage to the Lincoln bust may have been caused by fireworks set off on July 4th.

“People were out partying on the 4th of July and lighting fireworks off of it,” said Christopher Jackson, 22, who lives two blocks from the statue and saw the revelers also light newspapers on fire on top of the statue.

“It’s f—– up, honestly,” said Jackson, who works as a cook at a downtown eatery and chatted while waiting for a bus steps from the statue.

“You’d think people would appreciate it,” he said. “Abraham Lincoln is Abraham Lincoln. He’s one of the people who helped us. He freed the slaves. That’s a big one.”

Jackson suspects the vandals didn’t know the weathered statue, its nose chipped off, actually depicted Lincoln. “I didn’t even know until just now,” he said, adding that the statue seemed like another aspect of a blighted community dotted with run-down buildings and boarded-up homes.

“It’s insulting to leave it just like this with nobody trying to fix it,” he said.

Lopez, however, said he has no doubt that the damage was deliberate and tied to the debate that has raged across the country.

“I believe that what happened to Abraham Lincoln wasn’t just a random act of violence. It’s wasn’t just [plastered] with graffiti or tipped over. This was an intentional act to try to destroy this statue,” Lopez said. “The fire was intense. The soot is baked onto it. There was some planning and some effort to try and destroy this bust, which has been in the community for almost 100 years now.”

Lopez said he has no idea who is responsible for the apparent act of vandalism. He only knows that the message is “very hurtful” in the predominantly African-American neighborhood of West Englewood, where the Lincoln bust is located.

“We know there have been issues in the past on the Southwest Side of Chicago, when you had the Nazi headquarters in Marquette Park, which is a stone’s throw away from where this bust is,” he said.

“I want to make sure we’re able to address this so we don’t have our own citizens taking to the streets trying to topple public art.”

According to City of Chicago Cultural Historian Tim Samuelson, the sculpture was placed on the site by Swedish immigrant Gustav Philip Bloomquist, who built and operated the “Lincoln Gas Station” at this corner starting in 1928. The name of the business derived from the fact that Wolcott Avenue was named Lincoln at the time.

Bloomquist placed the sculpture on the public parkway presumably to call attention to the gas station, but an identifying plaque with his name suggests that could also reflect an immigrant’s pride in his adopted home, Samuelson wrote. Bloomquist lived nearby with his family at 6618 S. Hermitage.

He said the sculpture is of concrete. The maker is unknown, but the sculpture is an adaptation derived from the famed Augustus Saint-Gaudens “Standing Lincoln” which is in Lincoln Park just north of the Chicago History Museum.

Over the years, the bust has been informally maintained by neighborhood residents, and has changed color several times with successive re-paintings, Samuelson wrote.
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Old 08-20-17, 09:24 PM
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

Here's another article which claims that Kessler supported Obama.

How can this be?

How can an Obama supporter become a white supremacist?

And how can such a huge change take place in such a short period of time?


http://www.dailyprogress.com/news/lo...7a9eda079.html

Kessler described as one-time wannabe liberal activist

August 17, 2017

After using his blog and Wes Bellamy’s Twitter history to make a name for himself last fall, those platforms are now being used against Jason Kessler, the “pro-white” activist who organized the Unite the Right rally that turned deadly on Saturday.

Articles and conspiracy theories about Kessler’s past as a supporter of President Barack Obama and wannabe liberal activist who participated in the Occupy movement abound now as President Donald Trump continues facing backlash for his response to the rally that resulted in one woman, as well as two state police officers in a separate incident, dying.

On Monday, Kessler uploaded a video hoping to dispel rumors that he intentionally organized a violent rally that would reflect poorly on the so-called alt-right movement of white nationalists. He accused the Southern Poverty Law Center, as well as less extreme nationalists, of spreading misinformation about him.

Earlier this summer, the SPLC labeled Kessler a white nationalist, and wrote a profile about him that included assertions that some people on white nationalist forums have been questioning his “ideological pedigree.”

“I grew up in Charlottesville. Anybody who’s seen the way Charlottesville was this weekend understands that it’s an incredibly left-wing, commie town,” Kessler, 33, said in a video he posted online Monday.

Kessler said that he used to align himself with the city’s politically left-leaning residents, but went on to say he was “red-pilled” about three years ago.

The term is a reference to the film “The Matrix,” and has been used by alt-right followers as a way to describe someone who has taken to “white identitarian” issues and now rejects ideas such as multiculturalism, feminism and political correctness. Critics argue that attachment to white identitarianism is nothing more than a veil for white supremacist beliefs.

But old tweets, a neighbor, a liberal activist and some of Kessler’s old friends attest that he held strong liberal convictions just a few years ago.

In a series of tweets in November, Kessler said many alt-right followers are former liberals, and that he previously voted for Democrats. He said he voted for Trump in the primary and the general election.

“I like Trump more than I did Obama,” he wrote on Nov. 6. “My Trump enthusiasm is through the roof. I like people who push the edge.”

In an interview last month, one of Kessler’s childhood friends, David Caron, said Kessler previously had identified as a Democrat, but became disillusioned when he started thinking that there was no place for him in a party that has focused its efforts on embracing diversity and minority issues. He said the two of them had started supporting Trump last summer and attended one of his rallies in Richmond.

“He was a Democrat until last year. The main thing is, he said he felt like the party didn’t want him,” Caron said.

***

Laura Kleiner, a Democratic activist who lives in Staunton, said she dated Kessler for several months in 2013. She said Kessler was very dedicated to his liberal principles, and that he was a strict vegetarian, abstained from alcohol and drugs, embraced friends of different ethnicities and was an atheist.

“He broke up with me, and a lot of it was because I was not liberal enough,” she said. “I am a very progressive Democrat … but he didn’t like that I ate fish and that I’m a Christian.”

Kleiner said Kessler was well aware that she was of Jewish heritage, and that he showed no signs of being anti-Semitic. She also said he had a roommate for several years who was an African immigrant.

In an interview earlier this week, one of Kessler’s neighbors, Zoe Wheeler, said she knew of two different African roommates who lived with him, and never thought Kessler was a racist
, even after he started to make waves in the local news late last year.

“I met him 12 years ago, before he got really obsessed” with white identity issues, Wheeler said. “I think he went off the deep end … There was no stopping it, and then he was fueled by being an enemy and having something to stand for.”

“If you spend too much time on the web and you’re alone, you’ve got a lot of guys plying you with all kinds of ideas,” she said. “You want to grab hold of something. He wants to stand for something — I get that. But I feel like he’s all over the place.”

“I celebrate a diversity of cultures, and that was something that seemed to have been a part of his life, too,” Kleiner said. “I was really surprised to hear the stories that he’s changed and is now far-right. It’s really shocking and disappointing.”

“He’s an extremist in whatever he decides to do. That’s all I can really say.”

***

Kessler’s ties to Emancipation Park and the statue of Robert E. Lee go beyond the past year, when he decided to target Charlottesville City Councilor Bellamy for his effort to remove the statue of the Confederate general. The rally Saturday was ostensibly intended to be a protest of the council’s decision to remove the statue.

According to a woman (who wished to remain anonymous) who was part of the Occupy movement camp in what was then called Lee Park, Kessler was present there for several weeks in late 2011. She said Kessler ultimately removed himself from the camp after activists there started to make it known that his presence was not welcomed.

“He was just so disagreeable that he’d start fights between other people. He was very manipulative and very aggressive,” the woman said.

“He wanted people to be more violent and aggressive. He wanted to be the leader of things. ... Even if his politics had been good, I don’t think people would have liked him,” she said.

The former occupier said Kessler also tried to attach himself to other “leftist” groups around that time, such as Food Not Bombs and an atheist social club. She said Kessler had attempted to insert himself in those groups and radicalize them.

“I don’t think he knew what they really did. They just feed people — that’s it,” she said. “It’s like he got the idea that he could make it into some more militant group.”

“I don’t think he actually has any central beliefs at all — not that that makes what he’s doing any less dangerous.”

Kessler did not reply to messages seeking comment for this story. But essays he published on his blog through late 2015 seemed to demonstrate a shift in thinking. (The blog, “Jason Kessler, American Author,” recently was taken down. It remains unclear why.)

***

Last fall, The Daily Progress reported that Kessler published a blog post in February 2016 in which he reflected on the potential of war between different racial groups in the future. He argued that white people would need to fight to avoid becoming a minority in America — a phenomenon he’s described in recent months as “white genocide.”

“Cultures, tribes and civilizations are meant to clash just as we always have in the past, just like it is with nearly every other beast in the animal kingdom,” Kessler wrote last year.

Kessler used his blog to excoriate Bellamy in November. After uncovering a trove of offensive and inappropriate tweets Bellamy had written between 2009 and 2014, before he was elected to office, Kessler used his blog to expose the city councilor and call for his removal.

In his other blog posts that have been archived and shared with The Daily Progress, Kessler seemed to foreshadow his future role in the community and the events that took place at the Unite the Right rally.

“I can’t think of any occupation that I admire more than the professional provocateur, who has the courage and self-determination to court controversy despite all slings and arrows of the world,” he wrote in December 2015 as part of a blog post he updated a few times over a span of about two months — his “running thoughts.”

Also that December, he published his “historical perspective on mass violence.”

“We get so caught up in the emotion of the violence that we don’t consider the long-term, historical consequences,” he said.

“Perhaps we’d be happier if we made peace with the fact that rabid animals are going to dwindle the herd from time to time (as they have in much greater volume throughout history) and that’s not really a bad thing in the long run.”

Regarding large-scale attacks, he said, “I don’t think the zeitgeist should have an aneurysm every time one occurs either. I think we’d be served to draw some historical perspective on how difficult the human condition has always been and how that is something of a blessing in disguise.”
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Old 08-20-17, 09:39 PM
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

Originally Posted by grundle View Post
Here's another article which claims that Kessler supported Obama.

How can this be?

How can an Obama supporter become a white supremacist?
Well, I mean, you read the article, but I guess you didn't bold the right thing, because it says right there:
but became disillusioned when he started thinking that there was no place for him in a party that has focused its efforts on embracing diversity and minority issues. He said the two of them had started supporting Trump last summer and attended one of his rallies in Richmond.
Sounds like he left the democrats because they weren't racist enough for him.
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Old 08-20-17, 09:44 PM
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

Right now at Laguna Beach (about 15 minutes from my house) there's a "fascist march" and counter protestor. The numbers, I'm told by a friend who's there, are roughly 40 fascists and 800 counter-protestors. Still way too many fascists.
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Old 08-20-17, 09:55 PM
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

It's 2017, and innocent people are still getting kicked out of the lunch counter by other people who don't like their race.

Meanwhile, the people who made tweets to incite violence against these innocent people remain completely unpunished.


http://www.news.com.au/finance/work/...a75b3288d12803

School group kicked off uni campus for Trump hats

August 21, 2017

AN AMERICAN university has kicked out a school group for wearing “Make America Great Again” hats after a student complained about “whitey girls tryna be problematic”.

Twitter user Essence Dalton posted a photo of a group of high school girls visiting Howard University on Sunday, one of whom was wearing a distinctive red Donald Trump hat.

“Who told these lil yt girls they could come to THE HU like it was about to be some joke,” she wrote, adding that “they don’t even go here they’re just locals posted up in the annex tryna be problematic”.

Howard University is a historically black, private university in Washington DC. Its student population is about 86 per cent African-American, 3 per cent white and 3 per cent Asian.

"who told these lil yt girls they could come to THE HU like it was about to be some joke"

"Beat they asses or forever hold your piece "

"White people really getting brave"

"Start swingin"

"I genuinely hope they didn't leave unbeat"

"They posted like they ready to get they ass beat"

In response, the Howard University Dining Twitter account wrote: “We will take any action necessary to ensure that HU students feel safe & comfortable in our dining spaces. This group is no longer on campus.”
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Old 08-20-17, 09:57 PM
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

Originally Posted by joeblow69 View Post
Well, I mean, you read the article, but I guess you didn't bold the right thing, because it says right there:

Sounds like he left the democrats because they weren't racist enough for him.
But he was a liberal with two black roommates, a girlfriend with Jewish ancestry, a vegan, an atheist, and a member of Food Not Bombs.

No one can change that much that quickly.
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Old 08-20-17, 09:57 PM
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

Originally Posted by grundle View Post
It's 2017, and innocent people
It's 6 months into Trump's presidency. Anyone still supporting him is not "innocent".
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Old 08-20-17, 10:02 PM
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

Originally Posted by joeblow69 View Post
It's 6 months into Trump's presidency. Anyone still supporting him is not "innocent".
What statute makes it illegal to wear a Trump hat?
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Old 08-20-17, 10:03 PM
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

Originally Posted by grundle View Post
But he was a liberal with two black roommates, a girlfriend with Jewish ancestry, a vegan, an atheist, and a member of Food Not Bombs.

No one can change that much that quickly.
They can, and they do. Especially at the college age. Why is that so hard to believe?
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Old 08-20-17, 10:04 PM
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

Originally Posted by grundle View Post
What statute makes it illegal to wear a Trump hat?
Hmm, I don't seem to remember saying wearing a hat was illegal. I think you are reading WAY too much into things trying to find a "gotcha!" moment.

Chillax, man
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Old 08-20-17, 10:06 PM
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

I hate the Internet age for enabling a story about two white girls and some black kids to be propagated as evidence that one side is wrong and one side is right.

I'd go on but I just can't ...

New DVD Talk challenge: Let's all abandon the forums for 1 week, and simply engage with our fellow citizens.

Spoiler:
At the end of the week, I'll post a poll eliciting responses from everyone about their week. I won't include 'Twikoff' as an option since I'm a newbie and don't get it.
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Old 08-20-17, 10:16 PM
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

Originally Posted by grundle View Post
But he was a liberal with two black roommates, a girlfriend with Jewish ancestry, a vegan, an atheist, and a member of Food Not Bombs.

No one can change that much that quickly.
Sound like he was Tyler Durden. He wants to fight. He wants to make every club into a physically confrontational and hostile crew. Ideology is unimportant for some people, they just want to fuck stuff up.

The label that most closely fits him is anarchist.
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Old 08-20-17, 10:20 PM
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

Originally Posted by grundle View Post
Here's another article which claims that Kessler supported Obama.

How can this be?

How can an Obama supporter become a white supremacist?

And how can such a huge change take place in such a short period of time?

How does a white kid from Texas grow a beard and join ISIS?
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Old 08-20-17, 10:45 PM
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

Originally Posted by slop101 View Post
Right now at Laguna Beach (about 15 minutes from my house) there's a "fascist march" and counter protestor. The numbers, I'm told by a friend who's there, are roughly 40 fascists and 800 counter-protestors. Still way too many fascists.
And now, after it got dark, the number of fascists has grown (though still far outnumbered), and they have started chanting "white lives matter". Assholes.
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