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Religion, Politics and World Events They make great dinner conversation, don't you think? plus Political Film

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Old 08-14-17, 08:37 AM   #3751
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

Quote:
Originally Posted by grundle View Post
Read it again. I said they were "completely justified" in hitting his car with clubs, because they did so after he drove forward into a group of people.

When I came across the video, do you think I should have pretended that it didn't exist, and not post it here?
Still waiting for your apology for the sidewalk comment. One of the more asinine comments I've read on this board in a long time.
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Old 08-14-17, 08:43 AM   #3752
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

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Originally Posted by VinVega View Post
Still waiting for your apology for the sidewalk comment. One of the more asinine comments I've read on this board in a long time.
Considering your recent misinterpretations of posts and high-fiving of asinine comments, I don't think grundle should be losing any sleep.

Saul Goodman!
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Old 08-14-17, 08:44 AM   #3753
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

This writer estimates that the U.S. has 1 Nazi for every 22 communists:

http://www.reconsidermedia.com/laste...-the-alt-right

How Big and Powerful Is the Alt Right?

April 06, 2017

The Alt-Right remains probably the least-understood political phenomenon in the United States right now. There is very little consensus about what those in it stand for, who is in it besides a few celebrities and internet trolls, how many they are, and how powerful they are.

I decided to do some research. I even spent time running around chat boards like Reddit and 4Chan, and reading Breitbart. Fair warning: I have no conclusive answers--but that, in itself, is a finding, suggesting that anyone who is telling you they know that the Alt-Right is such-and-such is probably full of it.

To count, you first have to determine what the Alt-Right is. I've been unable to find a poll that counts the number of Americans that actually identify as Alt-Right, which is a shame, as self-identification is by far the easiest way to do it (imagine trying to count up "environmentalists" in the United States without polls). So let's get started.
What is the Alt-Right?

I hesitate to write even this, but the Alt-Right is a loosely-affiliated political ideology of-a-sort. Calling it an "ideology" is probably too generous, as its views, policies, and underlying philosophy are very poorly defined. There is no unifying underlying political theory or philosophy; there is no authoritative organization (the best shot at this is the National Policy Institute but I'd argue that it's far from authoritative); there is no clear leader (there are a few tinpot-celebrity provocateurs or media trolls that call themselves Alt-Right--probably the best candidate for leader here would be Richard Spencer).

So what, then, is the Alt-Right? Depending on your viewpoint, it falls somewhere between these two places:

A few extremists whose power is grossly over-estimated due to the amplifying power of the Internet. This is also known as the "4Chan theory."

All Trump voters and/or all of the GOP, which is sometimes extended to suggest that Republicans or Trump voters are actually Nazis.

Though it is not always the case that the truth lies between the extremes, it is probably the case here. Most observable evidence about the Alt-Right is online in some niche news websites, Reddit, 4Chan, and stuff like Facebook groups. Some selection bias suggests we're going to be seeing some of the worst of humanity on display here. There are many trolls and lots of useless spew in some of these places. But besides a few widely-broadcast TV moments, there's little else to support what we know about them.

What some other journalists (and I) seem to gather from observing a weird amalgam of celebrity-provocateurs like Richard Spencer, YouTube videos, and some online forums, is this:

The Alt-Right is a specific community/movement, even if loosely organized--that is, even though there are many people that are anti-establishment generally, or don't like conservatives, or are progressive, or anti-immigration, or etc, it doesn't make them the Alt-Right.

The Alt-Right are not conservative, and they really hate conservatives

They appear to be mostly white, young males

They're pretty populist, and many may be for single-payer healthcare and universal basic income

They're anti-establishment, anti-corporate, and seem to be pretty anti-religious

They're isolationist, anti-trade, anti-immigration

They're against multiculturalism, feminism, and political correctness

Frankly the evidence I see shows that many are white nationalists, and they harbor a bunch of serious racists and anti-everyones. Richard Spencer, who leads the National Policy Institute and founded the Alternative Right, is very explicit about white nationalist policy, and seems to flirt outright with Nazism, quoting Nazi propaganda in the original German.

They have a strange relationship with Donald Trump: they seem to waver between veneration and condemnation (for not fulfilling their wishes for his presidency so far)

There are a whole bunch of trolls in the mix and I cannot tell to what extent they believe in which portion of the above and to which extent they are just trolls

The definition we'll use, for someone who is Alt-Right, is this:


They self-identify as Alt-Right, or

They hold explicitly a mix of white-nationalist, anti-social progressive, and economic-populist views (as loosely outlined above)

The Alt-Right is not:

Trump voters

Republicans

Conservatives

People who happen to be racist / sexist

People who hold some subset of the above views/tendencies

Note that if you want to define the Alt-Right differently, the implications for them change. (For example: "All Trump voters are Alt-Right" means the group would include all of the viewpoints and demographics of those 58 million people.)

If you're interested, here's how Allum Bokhari and Milo Yiannopoulos describe the Alt-Right. It includes pointing to the neo-Nazi elements that they say are unwelcome.

How Big is the Alt-Right?

No real idea, but it's probably pretty small, by the definition we're using above. Again, we can only estimate in the vaguest possible way, but I'm going to argue that they make up less than 1% of the electorate. Let's look at a few disconnected points, many of which are thanks to Scott Alexander, who took this project on before I did and put far more time into it:

Spencer's infamous Nazi-salute meeting in DC brought in fewer than 300 people. In the words of the Washington Post: "roughly 3,300 fewer than attended a June convention in Reno, Nev., for people who enjoy, among other pursuits, dressing up in anthropomorphic animal suits." (So it was less than 8% of the size of a Reno Furry convention.) There has to my knowledge not been a larger gathering of this sort.

Before being banned, Reddit's /r/altright had about 5,000 users. 4Chan is harder to count but probably can't have more than 25,000 - 50,000 alt-right users.

Stormfront has about 30,000 readers.

Milo Yiannopoulos has 586,000 subscribers on Youtube (are they all Alt-Righters?).

Outside of that I can find no tangible evidence of the Alt-Right besides the surge in Breitbart views, but it's a stretch at best to say that all or most of these readers are "Alt-Right" anymore than I am a progressive because I read something on the Huffington Post this morning.

(If I have missed some big Alt-Right hotspot, meeting ground, etc, let me know)

Let's just assume there is 0.00% overlap between all those groups. It gets us to about 640,000 people. Let's assume they are all of voting age, and 100% of them voted in the 2016 election. That would make them less than 0.5% of the electorate. (Note: the assumptions are meant to create a possible ceiling.)

For comparison, in 2011 11% of voters preferred Communism (the one that murdered and starved tens of millions of people throughout the 20th century, not the Democratic Socialism of Bernie Sanders) to the US economic/political system. So I'll estimate that Communists are over 22x larger than the Alt-Right.
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Old 08-14-17, 08:49 AM   #3754
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

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Originally Posted by VinVega View Post
Still waiting for your apology for the sidewalk comment. One of the more asinine comments I've read on this board in a long time.
I made several sidewalk comments. Please quote the one that you think most deserves an apology from me.
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Old 08-14-17, 08:55 AM   #3755
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

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Originally Posted by creekdipper View Post

(morons, btw. )
Apparently you haven't learned much in 15 years either.
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Old 08-14-17, 09:07 AM   #3756
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

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Originally Posted by grundle View Post
I made several sidewalk comments. Please quote the one that you think most deserves an apology from me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by grundle
I blame the protestors for being in the street instead of on the sidewalk.
I have a feeling we'll be waiting until...
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Old 08-14-17, 09:09 AM   #3757
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

We have learned that "ape" is out, but how about calling someone a pet (a animal)?



Omarosa Manigualt is a black woman. This can't be OK.

Last edited by mspmms; 08-14-17 at 09:20 AM.
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Old 08-14-17, 09:16 AM   #3758
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

Quote:
Originally Posted by VinVega View Post
I have a feeling we'll be waiting until...
Here is my quote in its proper context:

http://forum.dvdtalk.com/13133187-post3551.html

Quote:
Originally Posted by grundle View Post
I blame the driver for hitting the protesters. I blame the protestors for being in the street instead of on the sidewalk.

You only cited the second sentence. And if that were all I had said, then yeah, I'd regret having said it.

But that was not all I said. I said both of those sentences. And in that context, I do not regret saying it, so I will not apologize.
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Old 08-14-17, 09:18 AM   #3759
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

Quote:
Originally Posted by mspmms View Post
We have learned that "ape" is out, but how about calling someone an animal (a pet)?



Omarosa Manigualt is a black woman.
Yep, that's pretty offensive.

Congrats! You're getting it!
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Old 08-14-17, 09:28 AM   #3760
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

Quote:
Originally Posted by creekdipper View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonX View Post
Perfect, let's deal with logic then. Please explain the logical and factual reason that a person shouldn't be able to terminate a pregnancy. Next, please explain the logical reason that two people should not be married because of their gender. Lastly, please explain logically why people should be allowed to descriminate against other people for arbitrary reasons? It's great that we've finally started applying logic to our arguements now.


discriminate. arguments.
Just wanted to more strongly point out that even creek realizes that his own bigoted viewpoints are logically indefensible. Hatred of any group of people, be they Jewish, African American, LGBTQ, or otherwise, should be just as socially unacceptable. There is no "logic" involved in that hatred, just plain bigotry. I hope creek realizes his part in it and one day regrets it.
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Old 08-14-17, 10:07 AM   #3761
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

Quote:
Originally Posted by grundle View Post
Here is my quote in its proper context:

http://forum.dvdtalk.com/13133187-post3551.html




You only cited the second sentence. And if that were all I had said, then yeah, I'd regret having said it.

But that was not all I said. I said both of those sentences. And in that context, I do not regret saying it, so I will not apologize.
The protesters are victims here, they deserve no blame for getting run over by a fucking NAZI. You are 1000% wrong and it's a despicable thing to say, let alone double down on it. Shame on you.
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Old 08-14-17, 10:24 AM   #3762
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

Quote:
Originally Posted by VinVega View Post
The protesters are victims here, they deserve no blame for getting run over by a fucking NAZI. You are 1000% wrong and it's a despicable thing to say, let alone double down on it. Shame on you.
They are victims of the Nazi, but they are also victims of their own actions.

They assumed, incorrectly, that the Nazis were decent human beings who would never try to run them over.

Most parents teach their children how to behave safely regarding streets. Perhaps the parents of these protestors failed to teach that to their children.

If you put your head inside a tiger's mouth, you should not be surprised when it bites your head off.

What advice would you give to your own adult child who was considering protesting in the street when there were Nazis around?
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Old 08-14-17, 10:26 AM   #3763
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

Quote:
Originally Posted by creekdipper View Post










(morons, btw. )





discriminate. arguments.

******************************************************

The left-wing fascist militia is out in full force these days. Regardless, reasonable people aren't intimidated by refusal of others to try to get others to abandon logic and good sense.



And the saddest part is that you haven't learned much from those 15 years, apparently.

When the best that adults (presumably you have to be an adult to be a forum member) in a discussion forum can do is to fall back upon the last refuge of scoundrels...personal insults...then those same adults should expect the dismissive response () they get. I know the failure to provoke an argument disappoints them, but that's just too bad, so sad. Other adults who actually seek solutions to problems (rather those whose remarks represent the very attitudes they claim to despise) can carry on a reasonable discourse. It's always been that way and always will be. Some people like to talk; others prefer to yell. Their online persona is exactly captured in the photo of the young Johnny Depp-lookalike that has been posted repeatedly in this thread.

It's a choice...you can be part of the problem or part of the solution.

You do earn a :: for failing to recognize that what is truly whack is when people argue with people who are on their own side; apparently, though, any deviation...such as "let's not incite violence"...is not allowed.

Here's an analogy for the non-haters:

Two people are discussing Hirsohima and Nagosaki at the end of WWII. One says that the U.S. did not need to use atomic bombs to end the war.

And the other says, "Why are you defending the Japanese rape of Nanking?"

Now, I ask you...regardless of how you come down on the question...is the response of the second person a fair, open-minded, and reasonable response?

I suggest to you that it is not, and that anyone who does needs to get out of their echo chamber bubble, put on their thinking caps, and abandon this extremist b.s. mindset that makes no sense. Unless you're fans of Balkanization and the results we see in that approach.
In this post you correct the spelling of two other people (even though one of them was clearly using the misspelling deliberately). Also in this post you showcase your own lack of spelling prowess. Kudos.
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Old 08-14-17, 10:42 AM   #3764
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

Quote:
Originally Posted by grundle View Post
They are victims of the Nazi, but they are also victims of their own actions.
And the woman was raped for wearing a skirt that was too short...

Take your head out of your ass!!!
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Old 08-14-17, 10:54 AM   #3765
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

Quote:
Originally Posted by grundle View Post
They are victims of the Nazi, but they are also victims of their own actions.

They assumed, incorrectly, that the Nazis were decent human beings who would never try to run them over.

Most parents teach their children how to behave safely regarding streets. Perhaps the parents of these protestors failed to teach that to their children.

If you put your head inside a tiger's mouth, you should not be surprised when it bites your head off.

What advice would you give to your own adult child who was considering protesting in the street when there were Nazis around?
Can't be serious...has to be trollling...
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Old 08-14-17, 10:54 AM   #3766
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....


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Old 08-14-17, 10:56 AM   #3767
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

http://image.masslive.com/home/mass-...388df47672.png

Springfield police officer mocks protesters run down by car in Charlottesville on Facebook post

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Old 08-14-17, 10:57 AM   #3768
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

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Old 08-14-17, 10:58 AM   #3769
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

Wow, that is very hard to watch. And people voted for that guy. Non racists, educated people voted for him. Unbelievable.
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Old 08-14-17, 11:03 AM   #3770
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

Charlottesville and the Effort to Downplay Racism in America

http://www.newyorker.com/culture/jia...ism-in-america
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Old 08-14-17, 11:05 AM   #3771
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

Quote:
Originally Posted by inri222 View Post
And the woman was raped for wearing a skirt that was too short...

Take your head out of your ass!!!
No, it's not the same thing. Everyone knows that standing in the street means you are likely to get hit by a car. Because cars are supposed to drive in the street. But no one is supposed to commit rape.

I'll ask you the same question I asked VinVega: What advice would you give to your own adult child who was considering protesting in the street when there were Nazis around?
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Old 08-14-17, 11:07 AM   #3772
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sdallnct View Post
Can't be serious...has to be trollling...
Nope. I'm totally serious.

What advice would you give to your own adult child who was considering protesting in the street when there were Nazis around?
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Old 08-14-17, 11:11 AM   #3773
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

Quote:
Originally Posted by grundle View Post
there were Nazis around
So are you admitting they are pieces of shit?
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Old 08-14-17, 11:11 AM   #3774
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

Quote:
Originally Posted by grundle View Post
They are victims of the Nazi, but they are also victims of their own actions.

They assumed, incorrectly, that the Nazis were decent human beings who would never try to run them over.

Most parents teach their children how to behave safely regarding streets. Perhaps the parents of these protestors failed to teach that to their children.

If you put your head inside a tiger's mouth, you should not be surprised when it bites your head off.

What advice would you give to your own adult child who was considering protesting in the street when there were Nazis around?
Let's just be clear here. According to grundle:

People who were viciously attacked by a fucking Nazi are partly to blame for being attacked.

However, a man who had opportunities to contest paternity in a suit is completely an innocent victim of a woman who lied to him.
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Old 08-14-17, 11:12 AM   #3775
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Re: We are a nation of cowards for not discussing race issues....

Quote:
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Nope. I'm totally serious.

What advice would you give to your own adult child who was considering protesting in the street when there were Nazis around?
"Give 'em hell."

Also I'd have been standing right there with them. Because fuck Nazis.
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