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The Venezuela / Socialism Thread

Old 02-20-14, 01:16 PM
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The Venezuela / Socialism Thread

Lots of news coming out of Venezuela recently, mostly a number of Arab Spring-style street protests and <a href="http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/02/why-venezuelas-revolution-will-be-tweeted/283904/">online media clashes involving the president and the opposition</a>.

<img src="http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/73077000/jpg/_73077296_c0806795-f295-4864-8004-7aa52f128929.jpg">

In these protests, at least <a href="http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2014/02/20/280019048/in-venezuela-another-beauty-queens-death-adds-to-anger">one beauty queen</a> was shot. (This would be the equivalent of a basketball player being shot at a rally).

<img src="http://static01.nyt.com/images/2014/02/19/world/VENEZUELA/VENEZUELA-superJumbo.jpg" width=600>

The opposition leader, Leopoldo Lopez, <a href="http://static01.nyt.com/images/2014/02/19/world/VENEZUELA/VENEZUELA-superJumbo.jpg">has surrendered</a> even as he asks for further peaceful protests. He has been <a href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-26263274">in jail since Tuesday</a>.
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Old 02-20-14, 03:42 PM
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re: The Venezuela / Socialism Thread

At least one guy is arguing that this is a US-backed attempt to oust the current government in favor of a less democratic government that is more willing to play ball with the US: http://www.democracynow.org/2014/2/2..._attempt_by_us
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Old 02-20-14, 04:01 PM
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re: The Venezuela / Socialism Thread

Originally Posted by The Bus View Post
In these protests, at least <a href="http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2014/02/20/280019048/in-venezuela-another-beauty-queens-death-adds-to-anger">one beauty queen</a> was shot. (This would be the equivalent of a basketball player being shot at a rally).


I am mildly outraged.
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Old 02-20-14, 04:45 PM
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re: The Venezuela / Socialism Thread

Protests? Pfffft! The Ukraine is laughing at you Venezuela.
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Old 02-21-14, 08:14 AM
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re: The Venezuela / Socialism Thread

Originally Posted by Supermallet View Post
At least one guy is arguing that this is a US-backed attempt to oust the current government in favor of a less democratic government that is more willing to play ball with the US: http://www.democracynow.org/2014/2/2..._attempt_by_us


This should seriously be in the funniest thing heard thread.

The abdicating US? People really think this stuff?
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Old 02-21-14, 09:02 AM
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re: The Venezuela / Socialism Thread

Ah yes, Democracy Now---a loving embrace for any totalitarian governments as long as they hate the US.

Another perspective:

(hyperlinks in original article: )

http://caracaschronicles.com/2014/02...-game-changed/

The Game Changed in Venezuela Last Night – and the International Media Is Asleep At the Switch

Francisco Toro / 23 hours ago February 20, 2014

San Cristobal on Tuesday night


Dear International Editor:

Listen and understand. The game changed in Venezuela last night. What had been a slow-motion unravelling that had stretched out over many years went kinetic all of a sudden.

What we have this morning is no longer the Venezuela story you thought you understood.

Throughout last night, panicked people told their stories of state-sponsored paramilitaries on motorcycles roaming middle class neighborhoods, shooting at people and storming into apartment buildings, shooting at anyone who seemed like he might be protesting.

People continue to be arrested merely for protesting, and a long established local Human Rights NGO makes an urgent plea for an investigation into widespread reports of torture of detainees. There are now dozens of serious human right abuses: National Guardsmen shooting tear gas canisters directly into residential buildings. We have videos of soldiers shooting civilians on the street.

And that’s just what came out in real time, over Twitter and YouTube, before any real investigation is carried out. Online media is next, a city of 645,000 inhabitants has been taken off the internet amid mounting repression, and this blog itself has been the object of a Facebook “block” campaign.

What we saw were not “street clashes”, what we saw is a state-hatched offensive to suppress and terrorize its opponents.

Here at Caracas Chronicles we’re doing what it can to document the crisis, but there’s only so much one tiny, zero-budget blog can do.

After the major crackdown on the streets of large (and small) Venezuelan cities last night, I expected some kind of response in the major international news outlets this morning. I understand that with an even bigger and more photogenic freakout ongoing in an even more strategically important country, we weren’t going to be front-page-above-the-fold, but I’m staggered this morning to wake up, scan the press and find…

Nothing.

As of 11 a.m. this morning, the New York Times World Section has…nothing.

The level of disengagement on display is deeply shocking.

Venezuela’s domestic media blackout is joined by a parallel international blackout, one born not of censorship but of disinterest and inertia. It’s hard to express the sense of helplessness you get looking through these pages and finding nothing. Venezuela burns; nobody cares.

Let me put this clearly. Y’all need to step it up. The time to discard what you thought you knew about the way things work in Venezuela is now.

Quico

(Damnit, there’s just no way to stay retired in these circumstances…)

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Old 02-21-14, 10:29 AM
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re: The Venezuela / Socialism Thread

Originally Posted by Supermallet View Post
At least one guy is arguing that this is a US-backed attempt to oust the current government in favor of a less democratic government that is more willing to play ball with the US: http://www.democracynow.org/2014/2/2..._attempt_by_us
I believe that is Venezuela's "go to" crap every time unrest occurs, as well.
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Old 02-21-14, 11:08 AM
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re: The Venezuela / Socialism Thread

Is it the contention that the US government never played a role in any Central or South American coup?
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Old 02-21-14, 11:44 AM
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re: The Venezuela / Socialism Thread

Originally Posted by CRM114 View Post
Is it the contention that the US government never played a role in any Central or South American coup?
I'm contending that Obama isn't trying to overthrow the leftist government of Venezuela.
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Old 02-21-14, 11:48 AM
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re: The Venezuela / Socialism Thread

Originally Posted by Ky-Fi View Post
I'm contending that Obama isn't trying to overthrow the leftist government of Venezuela.
Because the U.S government hasn't sought to overthrow socialist/communist governments before?

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Old 02-21-14, 11:48 AM
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re: The Venezuela / Socialism Thread

Originally Posted by CRM114 View Post
Is it the contention that the US government never played a role in any Central or South American coup?
no, that is not the contention.
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Old 02-21-14, 11:52 AM
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re: The Venezuela / Socialism Thread

Originally Posted by GreenMonkey View Post
Because the U.S government hasn't sought to overthrow socialist/communist governments before?

No, because Obama is not ideologically predisposed to overthrow socialist/communist governments.
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Old 02-21-14, 11:55 AM
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re: The Venezuela / Socialism Thread

Originally Posted by CRM114 View Post
Is it the contention that the US government never played a role in any Central or South American coup?
Absolutely not. However, when they will blame the US for Chavez's cancer, I think you can see a pattern and decide it probably needs much further investigation. Doncha' think?
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Old 02-21-14, 01:19 PM
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re: The Venezuela / Socialism Thread

Originally Posted by Ky-Fi View Post
I'm contending that Obama isn't trying to overthrow the leftist government of Venezuela.
Ah ha! Well done. You managed to defend Obama by slamming him. I was wondering how you would manage that.
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Old 02-21-14, 01:21 PM
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re: The Venezuela / Socialism Thread

So Obama is more socialist than corporatist? OK.
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Old 02-21-14, 01:29 PM
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re: The Venezuela / Socialism Thread

Okay, so let me see if I understand the left-wing logic in this thread:

1. You chafe at the idea that Venezuela's leftist government is inherently totalitarian, and you're sympathetic to the idea the the evil, capitalist US is really fomenting the unrest behind the scenes.

2. You voted for Obama because he's on the left, and would represent a stark contrast to the paranoid, imperialistic, oil-stealing, capitalist-stooge polices of George Bush.

3. ....and now you refuse to entertain the idea that Obama might actually espouse and be putting into practice the values that originally caused you to vote for him?


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Old 02-21-14, 01:34 PM
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re: The Venezuela / Socialism Thread

I'm the only left winger here.

I made two points. The US government has a history of such practices and Obama is a corporatist, same as every recent President.

As far as my feelings toward Venezuela, I believe they are one of the top 5 suppliers of oil to the United States who have been demonized by prior administrations because they choose a different form of government than we do. The real disconnect was President Bush asserting Chavez' evilness while slopping at his oil trough.
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Old 02-21-14, 01:34 PM
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re: The Venezuela / Socialism Thread

Presidents change, foreign policy not that much.
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Old 02-21-14, 01:36 PM
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re: The Venezuela / Socialism Thread

I voted for Cthulhu.
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Old 02-21-14, 01:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Ky-Fi View Post
Ah yes, Democracy Now---a loving embrace for any totalitarian governments as long as they hate the US.
Says the guy who bitches and whines when we attack the credibility of his sources.
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Old 02-21-14, 01:39 PM
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re: The Venezuela / Socialism Thread

Originally Posted by eXcentris View Post
Says the guy who bitches and whines when we attack the credibility of his sources.
Actually, I will give you credit---my critique of Democracy Now that you quoted was an ad hominem attack, and as such was fallacious.
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Old 02-21-14, 01:40 PM
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re: The Venezuela / Socialism Thread

I've never seen that Democracy Now website so I took a look. I don't see it as being an anti-American website. The very domain name implies the opposite.
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Old 02-21-14, 01:44 PM
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re: The Venezuela / Socialism Thread

Originally Posted by CRM114 View Post
I've never seen that Democracy Now website so I took a look. I don't see it as being an anti-American website. The very domain name implies the opposite.
I will suggest that there were (and are) several countries with the word "democratic" in their official names, and they are somewhat less than democratic.
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Old 02-21-14, 01:46 PM
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re: The Venezuela / Socialism Thread

Except that website, with that name, is American.

Or are you one of those people that believe there is a liberal conspiracy to destroy America?
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Old 02-21-14, 01:50 PM
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re: The Venezuela / Socialism Thread

Originally Posted by CRM114 View Post
Or are you one of those people that believe there is a liberal conspiracy to destroy America?
Well, "destroy" is a tricky word to qualify. Lenin didn't want to "destroy" Russia, but he didn't look fondly on its past and wanted to drastically alter its economic, religious, political and social traditions.
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