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Pie is better than cake -- the cake is a lie...

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Pie is better than cake -- the cake is a lie...

Old 02-17-14, 04:17 PM
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Pie is better than cake -- the cake is a lie...

Yes I'm late to the party. Watched it yesterday:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/z6kgvhG3AkI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Thoughts? I liked that they respected each others turns to speak not interrupting each other. Seemed like Nye "Won" in proving Ken's theories do not hold up in today's modern science.

Good for Bill not taking the bait when Ken kept repeating "You weren't there" Excuse me Ken but you were also not around 6,000 years ago so your point is moot.
Old 02-17-14, 04:20 PM
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Re: Bill Nye Debates Ken Ham

I think Ham won. Not based on his arguments, just based on the fact that he got a relatively serious figure in science to agree to the debate and give a bunch of publicity to the creationism museum.
Old 02-17-14, 04:34 PM
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Re: Bill Nye Debates Ken Ham

Yeah, I was opposed to Nye even doing the debate. The proper response to ridiculous ideas is ridicule, not serious debate.

And before anyone jumps on me for debating the fundamentalists here, I do that simply to practice my debate skills, and I'm always laughing, even if it doesn't show in the post.
Old 02-17-14, 04:35 PM
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Re: Bill Nye Debates Ken Ham

Yep, Nye lost the debate before it started by agreeing to do it.
Old 02-17-14, 04:46 PM
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Re: Bill Nye Debates Ken Ham

Well, If nothing else Nye turned a white hot spotlight on the darkest corners of anti-intellectualism. But yeah, he should have sidestepped this.
Old 02-17-14, 04:53 PM
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Re: Bill Nye Debates Ken Ham

Originally Posted by JumpCutz View Post
Well, If nothing else Nye turned a white hot spotlight on the darkest corners of anti-intellectualism.
Is it really a "corner" if it's pretty much the dominant view?
Old 02-17-14, 05:00 PM
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Re: Bill Nye Debates Ken Ham

Yes the results can be skewed easy by ballot stuffing. But, considering the Atheist crowd is so small, it's a bit odd it went in the direction. Especially on a Christian website where most of the traffic is Christian readers.

http://www.christiantoday.com/articl...time/35688.htm

Who won the debate tonight? Creation vs Evolution
Ken Ham 8%
Bill Nye 92%
Total votes: 47445
Old 02-17-14, 05:21 PM
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Re: Bill Nye Debates Ken Ham

I actually was happy Nye did this. He comes from Seattle, and the Pacific NW is the least religious region in the US. Growing up, I had never heard of YEC. Didn't know about it until in my 20s. I bought into it for a few weeks or a month. One of the things YEC always tout is how people won't debate them, or the times in which they have and just got their asses waxed because they simply didn't know the ins and outs of YEC (my opinion). I think Nye can end up doing a lot of good for people that are looking into it, and those who are doubting the veracity of YEC. So not only does it take away from the YEC camp to claim that no one will ever debate them, but it might just open some eyes. If it had been damn near anyone else but Ham, it wouldn't have the same effect. There are lots of YEC, but Ham is easily the most visible.

Anyway, I think this was great. Don't think it needs to be done every time they want a debate, but I still think that a scientists debating anything unscientific, is an ultimate good for society.
Old 02-17-14, 05:25 PM
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Re: Bill Nye Debates Ken Ham

Originally Posted by dork View Post
Is it really a "corner" if it's pretty much the dominant view?

"Highly religious Americans most likely to believe in creationism"

Well duh.
Old 02-17-14, 06:46 PM
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Re: Bill Nye Debates Ken Ham

It's been said in a number of places since the debate, but I think everything can be summed up in the two men's responses to the question "What would it take for you to change your mind." Nye's response was that he would need a piece of evidence inconsistent with his theories. Ham's response was that nothing could make him change his mind.
Old 02-17-14, 06:49 PM
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Re: Bill Nye Debates Ken Ham

Originally Posted by Navinabob View Post
Yes the results can be skewed easy by ballot stuffing. But, considering the Atheist crowd is so small, it's a bit odd it went in the direction. Especially on a Christian website where most of the traffic is Christian readers.

http://www.christiantoday.com/articl...time/35688.htm

Who won the debate tonight? Creation vs Evolution
Ken Ham 8%
Bill Nye 92%
Total votes: 47445
I've got to believe r/atheism, /b or someone were responsible for those poll results.
Old 02-17-14, 06:57 PM
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Re: Bill Nye Debates Ken Ham

Originally Posted by Nausicaa View Post
I've got to believe r/atheism, /b or someone were responsible for those poll results.
Very likely. Although, a lot of Christians were upset that people like Ham were representing them and making it seem like they were nut-jobs. Most Christians believe in the basics of science, and it's just that God directed it at the start.
Old 02-17-14, 07:30 PM
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Re: Bill Nye Debates Ken Ham

Ham won before it even started, just by getting Nye to debate him at all, especially on his home turf. Given that, Nye did a good job of going in to teacher mode, it was an interesting way to avoid the Gish Gallup. But the fact that Ham was allowed to stray so far from what the topic of the debate also hurt Nye. I know others feel it is still worthy to have these types of debates, and I can see their points. But overall, I think it hurts science more than helps...
Old 02-17-14, 08:36 PM
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Re: Bill Nye Debates Ken Ham

Originally Posted by Groucho View Post
Yep, Nye lost the debate before it started by agreeing to do it.
In Kansas in 2005 the scientists stayed away, and Intelligent Design got put on the curriculum for biology students. A few years later in Pennsylvania, the scientists showed up in force, and the ID proponents got their asses handed to them.

I'd rather scientists faced down the forces of ignorance.
Old 02-17-14, 08:42 PM
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Re: Bill Nye Debates Ken Ham

Originally Posted by Nick Danger View Post
In Kansas in 2005 the scientists stayed away, and Intelligent Design got put on the curriculum for biology students. A few years later in Pennsylvania, the scientists showed up in force, and the ID proponents got their asses handed to them.

I'd rather scientists faced down the forces of ignorance.
Agreed. Nye won. He won by agreeing to it, and he won the actual debate. And given some of the news lately about beliefs, his efforts came none too soon.
Old 02-17-14, 08:58 PM
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Re: Bill Nye Debates Ken Ham

Originally Posted by Navinabob View Post
Very likely. Although, a lot of Christians were upset that people like Ham were representing them and making it seem like they were nut-jobs. Most Christians believe in the basics of science, and it's just that God directed it at the start.
I think this is very often overlooked, and when a religious person is involved in an argument, the assumption is they think God created everything up until today, which isn't the case. Evolution is very much a part of a belief system of a Christian.
Old 02-17-14, 11:27 PM
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Re: Bill Nye Debates Ken Ham

The weight of science eventually crushed the "God created everything" argument. "God directed it" became the fallback option. Whatever "extremists" remain, much like conspiracy theorists, should just be ignored. The fact that there might be valid reasons for such a debate to occur in a modern society is mind boggling.

Last edited by eXcentris; 02-17-14 at 11:33 PM.
Old 02-18-14, 03:15 AM
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Re: Bill Nye Debates Ken Ham

Originally Posted by DVD Polizei View Post
I think this is very often overlooked, and when a religious person is involved in an argument, the assumption is they think God created everything up until today, which isn't the case. Evolution is very much a part of a belief system of a Christian.

If you have HBO, you might want to watch the documentary "Questioning Darwin" (available on demand).

It might dissuade you from the notion expressed in your last sentence, which may be true for some who profess some Christian beliefs but who deny the biblical account of Genesis (which sort of invalidates the rest of the book since the fall of man and the his redemption through Christ is the theme of the entire book).

To put it succinctly, if you believe that death entered the world with the fall of Adam, you cannot also believe that evolution is true. That is, unless you employ contorted explanations to try to redefine 'death' as not applying to evolution...which would say that the process of evolution 'stopped' at some point...or saying that the Bible was only referring to spiritual death (which would suggest that Adam & Eve would experienced physical death regardless of whether they had ever sinned).

Evolution and Christianity (that is, a Christianity that includes the biblical account of creation) are not compatible.

Last edited by creekdipper; 02-18-14 at 04:44 AM.
Old 02-18-14, 03:15 AM
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Re: Bill Nye Debates Ken Ham

Originally Posted by Nausicaa View Post
I've got to believe r/atheism, /b or someone were responsible for those poll results.
Or perhaps whoever posted it got the results backward the way Nye confused the North Pole with Antarctica (see climate warning thread).

The only thing that the debate proved is that neither side is going to convince the others based upon presenting their viewpoints in a debate. And that the reactions in this thread say more about the biases of the readers than any objective evaluation.

Both Nye and Ham avoided certain points raised by the other. Despite the conviction held by some that Nye is more "open-minded" because he said that he would be persuaded if other evidence were presented to him, my personal opinion is that is a position he states simply because he thinks that he will never have to face such evidence. I honestly believe that he would not only be skeptical about such evidence but that he would discount it and continue to look for an alternate solution that fits his worldview.

It is interesting that Nye gets acclaim for his "honesty" in making statements such as "We don't know" and "It's a mystery" when faced with questions for which he has not rational natural explanation (such as the question of how consciousness emerged from matter) while Ham gets mockery and scorn for his assertions that God is responsible.

If Stephen Hawkings advances a theory about black holes (accepted worldwide by millions as fact because, after all, that book was a big hit!) and then later adjusts his theories saying that his earlier ideas were wrong, that is held up as evidence of the value of 'science' (we keep looking for answers). It's interesting that Hawkings, Nye, and the "authentic" scientific community keep positing that "real science" must be able to make predictions based upon past observations...which is an argument for the existence of a created universe with fixed laws. Nye's atheistic views cannot exist without borrowed capital from Christianity (in the same way that his views of morality...whatever that may be...are also borrowed).

I also found it interesting that Nye's "reason for getting out of bed each day" is the "joy of discovery" (or words to that effect). That suggests that Nye is in love with "the search"; the logical conclusion of his statement is that his life would have no purpose if all of his questions were answered to his satisfaction. He reminds me of a person who wants to take apart a clock to see what makes it tick but couldn't care less about the value of time.
Old 02-18-14, 03:59 AM
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Re: Bill Nye Debates Ken Ham

I do have one question I'd like to ask separately: Why does Nye imply that scientific progress (new technologies, inventions, etc.) would suffer immeasurably if creationism is presented to students?

I know many chemical engineers, medical doctors, etc. who are devout believers in creation. And Ham repeatedly identified accomplished scientists who had contributed greatly to the advancement of technology (although, apparently, judging from Nye's comments and those posted on this forum, they represent "the forces of ignorance"...remind yourself of that the next time you get an MRI ).

Nye sounded downright hysterical in painting a picture of a return to using candles and writing on slates if creationism were taught in schools. Being Debbie Downer doesn't seem to fit the image of a 'rational' being who believes in the process of observation. Does Nye think that some future innovator will come up with a new idea and say, "Nope, can't do that...I was exposed to creationism in school"? Ham brought up the idea that Nye wants to be the arbiter of who qualifies as a 'real' scientist and what that person has to believe, and Nye seemed to confirm. It's one thing to try to argue that creationism is not a science (just as Ham argued that evolution is a religious viewpoint)...it's something different to act as though the very idea of creationism is a dire threat to mankind.

To me, that's like saying that a person can't write religious treatises simply because he was exposed to the theory of evolution in school. Or that the medical doctor who is a creationist can't perform successful open-heart surgery.

[Edit: After RoyalTea's question, I thought I'd amend the post to say, "I know several..." rather than "many." These are personal friends and fellow communicants, and there are three or more of each, but didn't mean to imply that I am personally acquainted with large groups of professionals in these fields or ask every doctor about his religious beliefs. But these guys are highly educated and hold very respected positions in their communities (execs, surgeons).]

Last edited by creekdipper; 02-18-14 at 08:27 AM.
Old 02-18-14, 04:41 AM
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Re: Bill Nye Debates Ken Ham

"So flee youthful passions and pursue righteousness, faith, love, and peace, along with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart. 23 Have nothing to do with foolish, ignorant controversies; you know that they breed quarrels. 24 And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, 25 correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, 26 and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will."

Posting this from 2nd Timothy 2 (ESV) because I've abstained from posting for the last week because I found myself agreeing with a PM that correctly suggested that I sometimes appear to be a lot more interested in the argument than the persons with whom I was debating. Funny thing is that (I would say providentially) after a spate of back-and-forth on this forum a week or so ago, our pastor used this very text for his Sunday night sermon series on recognizing the intellectual bankruptcy of atheism). What struck me along with the illustrations re: all of the various techniques used by those attacking scripture (logical fallacies, straw men, ignorant conjecture, unstated biases, etc.) was the spirit in which the issues should be debated; i.e. the eternal consequences at stake.

And I had to admit that, while I enjoy the conversations with many posters and analyzing the views expressed, I really wasn't thinking of the individuals although I do think of many of you whom I have come to "know" (as much as anyone can actually "know" someone from the internet) as "acquaintances." As Artman has said, I believe that most of us could sit down and get along just fine over a meal. To borrow a cliche, some of my closest friends in the past have been atheists (we had heated debates, but we genuinely cared for each other & proved it many times).

I long ago put aside hostile feelings (while most posters are respectful and refrain from personal attacks and name-calling, even the exceptions didn't cause any hurt feelings to register), but that's not good enough for someone professing to be a Christian. I keep being reminded of Penn Jillette's statement that he would rather encounter a Christian who cared enough about him to share the message of the Bible (even though he considers those ideas absurd) than someone who just believes that he is going to Hell but doesn't care. That's just wrong. So I had to work out whether I was just arguing to defend the faith or to try to win a philosophical debate just to prove a point or whether there was a real concern for the person on the other end of the connection.

The idea that caring about someone also can mean telling them some things that will be perceived as highly offensive is not contradictory, though. That's an issue for another thread, but just wanted bob & a couple of others to know that I hadn't ignored your last questions (although some may have been rhetorical) and had a few more of my own regarding the disdain for 'certainty' (was that poster absolutely certain about that?). The issue was the motivation for my own posting (since many of us get caught up in lengthy, time-consuming debates here, I guess everyone has to ask himself that question). For me, I was convicted of a need to apply the attitudes conveyed in the scripture above.

Just sayin'.
Old 02-18-14, 07:56 AM
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Re: Bill Nye Debates Ken Ham

Originally Posted by creekdipper View Post
I know many chemical engineers, medical doctors, etc. who are devout believers in creation.
Are they believers in creation? Or are they believers specifically in the young earth model of creation?
Old 02-18-14, 08:11 AM
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Re: Bill Nye Debates Ken Ham

Even Nye had to admit that he had no evidence for how life really begin. On that basis alone, I say he lost.
Old 02-18-14, 08:22 AM
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Re: Bill Nye Debates Ken Ham

Originally Posted by RoyalTea View Post
Are they believers in creation? Or are they believers specifically in the young earth model of creation?
Both.
Old 02-18-14, 09:23 AM
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Re: Bill Nye Debates Ken Ham

Originally Posted by eXcentris View Post
The weight of science eventually crushed the "God created everything" argument. "God directed it" became the fallback option.
And action................


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