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How Much Longer Will the Government Shutdown Last? ( "place your bets" :-)))

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View Poll Results: How Much Longer Will the Government Shutdown Last? (from today / Tue. Oct. 7, 2013)
Less than 3 days
0
0%
3 more days or more, but less than 5 days
12.12%
5 more days or more, but less than 7 days
9.09%
7 more days or more, but less than 10 days
33.33%
10 more days or more, but less than 14 days
12.12%
14 more days or more, but less than 17 days
9.09%
17 more days or more, but less than 20 days
0
0%
20 more days or more, but less than 25 days
0
0%
25 more days or more, but less than 30 days
3.03%
30 more days or more ... potential coup and Military takes over government
21.21%
Voters: 33. You may not vote on this poll

How Much Longer Will the Government Shutdown Last? ( "place your bets" :-)))

Old 10-17-13, 02:29 PM
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Re: How Much Longer Will the Government Shutdown Last? ( "place your bets" :-)))

Originally Posted by dvdjunkie32 View Post
Only because he purposely delayed Obamacare for a year, and could still spin the fiction that this is a great thing for America. Now that people are finally starting to see it affect their pocketbooks, they aren't too happy, and they certainly aren't seeing the economy recover.
I'm amazed that the soothsayers in the GOP can already tell Obamacare is a complete failure.
Old 10-17-13, 02:32 PM
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Re: How Much Longer Will the Government Shutdown Last? ( "place your bets" :-)))

Originally Posted by wendersfan View Post
dvdjunkie32, I'm going to try to explain this as clearly and concisely as possible, so please pay attention.

The GOP approach, of causing a government shutdown, and then offering to selectively fund only specific programs, is a novel approach, and had the Democrats given in to it, would have created a precedent where either party could resort to that tactic, effectively short-circuiting the constitutionally-mandated way of how our government is supposed to work. This could have potentially been disastrous for the U.S. government. This is not a partisan argument. This is simply the way it is. In this case, the GOP was trying to do something very, very wrong, and for several reasons, some entirely partisan, the Democrats refused to allow it.

Simply put, why should the Republicans get to decide what parts of the government get to operate and what parts don't, when the entirety of the government is supposed to operate?

So the alternative is to give the Democrats everything they want? That's not the way government should work either. We're talking about a piece of legislation that will affect every American for the rest of our lives. This is what caused the shutdown. And remember this quote?


" But we have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it" - Nancy Pelosi

But the Democrats won't compromise, won't even discuss this law. Maybe because they don't even know what's in it.
Old 10-17-13, 02:35 PM
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Re: How Much Longer Will the Government Shutdown Last? ( "place your bets" :-)))

Originally Posted by CRM114 View Post
I'm amazed that the soothsayers in the GOP can already tell Obamacare is a complete failure.
You honestly think it is going to be a success? They can't even get the fucking website to run.
Old 10-17-13, 02:35 PM
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Re: How Much Longer Will the Government Shutdown Last? ( "place your bets" :-)))

The food in this restaurant is terrible! And such small portions!
Old 10-17-13, 02:40 PM
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Re: How Much Longer Will the Government Shutdown Last? ( "place your bets" :-)))

Originally Posted by dvdjunkie32 View Post
You honestly think it is going to be a success? They can't even get the fucking website to run.
I have no idea. I hope it is for the benefit of Americans currently uninsured. How can one say? The website will be fine. Talk about the policy and not the logistics.
Old 10-17-13, 02:41 PM
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Re: How Much Longer Will the Government Shutdown Last? ( "place your bets" :-)))

Originally Posted by dvdjunkie32 View Post
So the alternative is to give the Democrats everything they want? That's not the way government should work either. We're talking about a piece of legislation that will affect every American for the rest of our lives. This is what caused the shutdown. And remember this quote?


" But we have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it" - Nancy Pelosi

But the Democrats won't compromise, won't even discuss this law. Maybe because they don't even know what's in it.
It was already passed by both houses of Congress and signed by the President into law. THREE years ago. The time to debate is BEFORE it is passed. And if you don't like what is passed, you introduce your own legislation. And if your legislation doesn't pass, you have to wait until your party is in power. This isn't rocket science.

I swear the people that don't get it never watched Schoolhouse Rock when they were a kid.
Old 10-17-13, 02:50 PM
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Re: How Much Longer Will the Government Shutdown Last? ( "place your bets" :-)))

Originally Posted by wendersfan View Post
dvdjunkie32, I'm going to try to explain this as clearly and concisely as possible, so please pay attention.

The GOP approach, of causing a government shutdown, and then offering to selectively fund only specific programs, is a novel approach, and had the Democrats given in to it, would have created a precedent where either party could resort to that tactic, effectively short-circuiting the constitutionally-mandated way of how our government is supposed to work. This could have potentially been disastrous for the U.S. government. This is not a partisan argument. This is simply the way it is. In this case, the GOP was trying to do something very, very wrong, and for several reasons, some entirely partisan, the Democrats refused to allow it.

Simply put, why should the Republicans get to decide what parts of the government get to operate and what parts don't, when the entirety of the government is supposed to operate?
I've made this analogy before, but I'll repeat it:

Democrats think we should eat our vegetables and our meat, along with the french fries and the dessert. Republicans are insisting on french fries and dessert only. Their position with funding the pakrs is the equivalent of saying "Since everyone agrees on french fries and dessert, why don't we eat those now, then we can circle around to argue about the meat and vegetables later?"
Old 10-17-13, 02:54 PM
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Re: How Much Longer Will the Government Shutdown Last? ( "place your bets" :-)))

Originally Posted by JasonF View Post
I've made this analogy before, but I'll repeat it:

Democrats think we should eat our vegetables and our meat, along with the french fries and the dessert. Republicans are insisting on french fries and dessert only. Their position with funding the pakrs is the equivalent of saying "Since everyone agrees on french fries and dessert, why don't we eat those now, then we can circle around to argue about the meat and vegetables later?"
My two-year-old just became a lifelong Republican.
Old 10-17-13, 02:58 PM
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Re: How Much Longer Will the Government Shutdown Last? ( "place your bets" :-)))

Originally Posted by dvdjunkie32 View Post
So the alternative is to give the Democrats everything they want?
Yes, essentially. This was not the time to try and repeal or defund Obamacare because the chance of success was basically zero. It was a poor tactical decision from the start. Ironically, one poll shows Obamacare is more popular than it was before the shutdown started.
Old 10-17-13, 03:06 PM
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Re: How Much Longer Will the Government Shutdown Last? ( "place your bets" :-)))

Originally Posted by JasonF View Post
I've made this analogy before, but I'll repeat it:

Democrats think we should eat our vegetables and our meat, along with the french fries and the dessert. Republicans are insisting on french fries and dessert only. Their position with funding the pakrs is the equivalent of saying "Since everyone agrees on french fries and dessert, why don't we eat those now, then we can circle around to argue about the meat and vegetables later?"
Except you forgot the part about where many Republicans think their menu was precipitated by the Democrats choosing a menu chock full of lobster, but only for Democrats.
Old 10-17-13, 03:37 PM
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Re: How Much Longer Will the Government Shutdown Last? ( "place your bets" :-)))

Originally Posted by dvdjunkie32 View Post
So the alternative is to give the Democrats everything they want?
No, the alternative is to fund the government the way our government is supposed to work. This is not, "giving the Democrats everything they want", this is the government operating the way it was intended, by funding programs passed by Congress and signed into law by the President.
Old 10-17-13, 03:39 PM
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Re: How Much Longer Will the Government Shutdown Last? ( "place your bets" :-)))

Originally Posted by Pharoh View Post
Except you forgot the part about where many Republicans think their menu was precipitated by the Democrats choosing a menu chock full of lobster, but only for Democrats.
What government programs are means tested to only apply to Democrats?
Old 10-17-13, 03:41 PM
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Re: How Much Longer Will the Government Shutdown Last? ( "place your bets" :-)))

Originally Posted by Why So Blu? View Post
hell, he don't even want Affordable Healthcare for Kentucards, so when his constituents get sick they can go sit on a dam.
I don't think that's how things work.
Old 10-17-13, 03:44 PM
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Re: How Much Longer Will the Government Shutdown Last? ( "place your bets" :-)))

Originally Posted by Tracer Bullet View Post
What government programs are means tested to only apply to Democrats?
None. I never said otherwise.
Old 10-17-13, 03:51 PM
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Re: How Much Longer Will the Government Shutdown Last? ( "place your bets" :-)))

Originally Posted by CRM114 View Post
It was already passed by both houses of Congress and signed by the President into law. THREE years ago. The time to debate is BEFORE it is passed. And if you don't like what is passed, you introduce your own legislation. And if your legislation doesn't pass, you have to wait until your party is in power. This isn't rocket science.

I swear the people that don't get it never watched Schoolhouse Rock when they were a kid.
It was never given time for debate and many Americans were so ill-informed that they thought Obamacare meant free health insurance. And almost no one knows what all fun details are hidden in the 20,000 pages. Do you think it's right to pass a law that no one even has fucking read completely?

Yeah it passed, and after three years of enjoying the few benefits, Americans are now going to see what a raw deal they got.
Old 10-17-13, 03:55 PM
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Re: How Much Longer Will the Government Shutdown Last? ( "place your bets" :-)))

Originally Posted by Pharoh View Post
None. I never said otherwise.
Then I don't understand what you mean. What does "but only for Democrats" refer to?
Old 10-17-13, 03:57 PM
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Re: How Much Longer Will the Government Shutdown Last? ( "place your bets" :-)))

Originally Posted by dvdjunkie32 View Post
It was never given time for debate and many Americans were so ill-informed that they thought Obamacare meant free health insurance. And almost no one knows what all fun details are hidden in the 20,000 pages. Do you think it's right to pass a law that no one even has fucking read completely?

Yeah it passed, and after three years of enjoying the few benefits, Americans are now going to see what a raw deal they got.
Assuming for argument's sake that is all correct, does that excuse the tactics used now? Would it excuse any and all tactics?
Old 10-17-13, 03:57 PM
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Re: How Much Longer Will the Government Shutdown Last? ( "place your bets" :-)))

Originally Posted by Tracer Bullet View Post
Then I don't understand what you mean. What does "but only for Democrats" refer to?

I was commenting on what many Republicans believe, not what I believe or what reality is.
Old 10-17-13, 04:19 PM
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Re: How Much Longer Will the Government Shutdown Last? ( "place your bets" :-)))

Originally Posted by dvdjunkie32 View Post
It was never given time for debate and many Americans were so ill-informed that they thought Obamacare meant free health insurance. And almost no one knows what all fun details are hidden in the 20,000 pages. Do you think it's right to pass a law that no one even has fucking read completely?

Yeah it passed, and after three years of enjoying the few benefits, Americans are now going to see what a raw deal they got.
All Americans are ill-informed. Heck, I suspect the percentage of Democrats that think Obamacare is free healthcare is less that the percentage of Republicans that think Obama is the Antichrist. Anyone actually do a poll if people think it's free?
  • 57 percent of Republicans (32 percent overall) believe that Obama is a Muslim
  • 45 percent of Republicans (25 percent overall) agree with the Birthers in their belief that Obama was "not born in the United States and so is not eligible to be president"
  • 38 percent of Republicans (20 percent overall) say that Obama is "doing many of the things that Hitler did"
  • Scariest of all, 24 percent of Republicans (14 percent overall) say that Obama "may be the Antichrist."

It also doesn't really matter whats in 20,000 pages because, chances are, if it was 20 pages they still wouldn't read it. Congress relies on summaries sometimes, but typically you vote on the party line. The Patriot Act is as big a deal as Obamacare and its only a few hundred pages and members of Congress & Senate said they didn't read it. We have items proposed that are 2 paragraphs long and members of Congress will wave it around as having "too much pork" because regardless of what it says, the GOP will always yell out "pork". I don't think the amount of pages has much to do with it.
Old 10-17-13, 04:21 PM
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Re: How Much Longer Will the Government Shutdown Last? ( "place your bets" :-)))

Originally Posted by Pharoh View Post
I was commenting on what many Republicans believe, not what I believe or what reality is.
Ah, okay. I understand now.
Old 10-17-13, 05:33 PM
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Re: How Much Longer Will the Government Shutdown Last? ( "place your bets" :-)))

Originally Posted by Navinabob View Post
All Americans are ill-informed. Heck, I suspect the percentage of Democrats that think Obamacare is free healthcare is less that the percentage of Republicans that think Obama is the Antichrist. Anyone actually do a poll if people think it's free?
  • 57 percent of Republicans (32 percent overall) believe that Obama is a Muslim
  • 45 percent of Republicans (25 percent overall) agree with the Birthers in their belief that Obama was "not born in the United States and so is not eligible to be president"
  • 38 percent of Republicans (20 percent overall) say that Obama is "doing many of the things that Hitler did"
  • Scariest of all, 24 percent of Republicans (14 percent overall) say that Obama "may be the Antichrist."
I'm curious, don't suppose you could provide any info on the poll that came up with these results, could you?
Old 10-17-13, 05:36 PM
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Re: How Much Longer Will the Government Shutdown Last? ( "place your bets" :-)))

Originally Posted by Pharoh View Post
Except you forgot the part about where many Republicans think their menu was precipitated by the Democrats choosing a menu chock full of lobster, but only for Democrats.
I don't think that's the case. The Republicans wanted -- or at least pretended to want -- the parks reopened and sick kids treated and all the other things like that. That's not Democrat-only lobster. That's french fries for everyone -- i.e., placating the voters on the things they collectively care about while continuing to hold firm on the things that either people don't care about (in the sense of there being electoral consequences for messing with them), or that only Democrats care about.
Old 10-17-13, 05:51 PM
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Re: How Much Longer Will the Government Shutdown Last? ( "place your bets" :-)))

Originally Posted by JasonF View Post
I don't think that's the case. The Republicans wanted -- or at least pretended to want -- the parks reopened and sick kids treated and all the other things like that. That's not Democrat-only lobster. That's french fries for everyone -- i.e., placating the voters on the things they collectively care about while continuing to hold firm on the things that either people don't care about (in the sense of there being electoral consequences for messing with them), or that only Democrats care about.
Did the Republicans really want the parks open? Or did they see the hypocrisy of closing the mall to everyone, except when the AFL-CIO/SEIU wants to invite Nancy Pelosi to speak at a pro-amnesty for illegal immigration protest?
Old 10-17-13, 06:00 PM
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Re: How Much Longer Will the Government Shutdown Last? ( "place your bets" :-)))

Originally Posted by Shoveler View Post
I'm curious, don't suppose you could provide any info on the poll that came up with these results, could you?
According to this blog post: http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...-gop-poll.html

Those results came from a Harris poll in 2010.

(As an aside, the bullet points in Navinabob's post are word for word the same as those in the blog post. I don't know about anyone else, but it seemed to me that they were presented as Navinabob's own words, and not a copy+paste quote from someone else. That's mildly disturbing; how often am I reading his words and how often am I reading someone else's words presented as his own? If you are quoting someone else, please make that clear.)
Old 10-17-13, 06:02 PM
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Re: How Much Longer Will the Government Shutdown Last? ( "place your bets" :-)))

Originally Posted by dvdjunkie32 View Post
So the alternative is to give the Democrats everything they want? That's not the way government should work either. We're talking about a piece of legislation that will affect every American for the rest of our lives.
You're being needlessly obtuse. Not everything is a dichotomy. The tea party not getting its way does not mean the democrats pulled one over on them. Forget for a moment what the law is about. Once any bill is passed by Congress and signed by the President, it becomes a law (see "I'm just a Bill", Schoolhouse Rock ABC 1975). These can't be ignored just because we don't like them. Remember all the talk about the "Rule of Law" the last time we had a democratic president?

There is a proscribed, Constitutionally mandated legislative process for changing laws. It's how every non-banana republic Government works. Civics 101. The fact that the conservatives in the House couldn't convince enough people to go along with them doesn't mean they get to toss the entire legislative process out the window. Yes, if some of these people had been in Congress last term, things may have gone differently, but they weren't. They have to learn how to function within the system set up by the Constitution they profess to love so much. And the President has no real authority to change an existing law without again going through the proper process. Again, civics 101.

We just finished up a presidential election where the man behind this law defeated a candidate who said he would repeal and replace it. When Mitt Romney said "repeal and replace", he was talking about the legislative process, not just walking in like a tin-pot dictator and saying it doesn't count anymore. Some of the other primary people may have had other thoughts on the matter, but that's irrelevant.

The simple fact is, the tea party wing of the Republican party is not interested in governance, only in forcing their agenda on everyone, no matter the consequence. I'm really hoping that this whole fiasco is the beginning of the end for the idea that electing people who hate government to high office is a good idea.

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