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Home Schooling: Pros and Cons

Old 09-24-13, 09:45 PM
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Home Schooling: Pros and Cons

Originally Posted by Norm de Plume View Post
^Sadly, my friend, I don't think he's a troll. He's just breathtakingly jejeune and incognizant. It's at least partially a result of being home-schooled (doubtless) and cloistered in a dank basement with nothing but a bible and equally-detached-from-reality fire-and-brimstone relatives.
Since home-schoolers are consistently outperforming public school students, you quite obviously are saying that he has escaped the indoctrination found in public schools.

Your post demonstrates your detachment from the reality of home-schoolers. For some time now, university professors have acknowledged being pleasantly surprised (if not shocked) that their preconceived notions re: home-schoolers were far off base and that, in fact, their home-schooled students were far better prepared, more organized, more mature, and better socialized with adults as well as peers (except in beer pong) than the typical public school student.

Then again, those professors admitted their ignorance of the facts before they actually saw the situation firsthand. Would that others would do the same before pontificating upon subjects they know nothing about.
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Old 09-24-13, 10:27 PM
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Re: Same Sex Marriage: 2018

Originally Posted by creekdipper View Post
Since home-schoolers are consistently outperforming public school students, you quite obviously are saying that he has escaped the indoctrination found in public schools.

Your post demonstrates your detachment from the reality of home-schoolers. For some time now, university professors have acknowledged being pleasantly surprised (if not shocked) that their preconceived notions re: home-schoolers were far off base and that, in fact, their home-schooled students were far better prepared, more organized, more mature, and better socialized with adults as well as peers (except in beer pong) than the typical public school student.

Then again, those professors admitted their ignorance of the facts before they actually saw the situation firsthand. Would that others would do the same before pontificating upon subjects they know nothing about.
You may be right and I may be wrong, but I think the average intelligent person can infer, based on a regular schooling experience, that home-schooling isn't necessarily conducive to learning how to interact with one's peers and deal with a structured environment outside the parents' home.
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Old 09-24-13, 10:43 PM
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Re: Same Sex Marriage: 2018

Well, for the record, I wasn't home-schooled. My time in the public education system lasted until I was a 17-year-old high school freshman in 1997. My mother removed my sister and I both, intending for us to finish properly at home, but it never happened. At age 20, I got my GED, and attended community college from 2002 - 2003, studying multimedia. I've picked up a lot more information on my own since then.
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Old 09-24-13, 10:54 PM
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Re: Same Sex Marriage: 2018

Originally Posted by moviefan2k4 View Post
Well, for the record, I wasn't home-schooled. My time in the public education system lasted until I was a 17-year-old high school freshman in 1997. My mother removed my sister and I both, intending for us to finish properly at home, but it never happened. At age 20, I got my GED, and attended community college from 2002 - 2003, studying multimedia. I've picked up a lot more information on my own since then.

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Old 09-24-13, 11:25 PM
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Re: Same Sex Marriage: 2018

Originally Posted by Norm de Plume View Post
You may be right and I may be wrong, but I think the average intelligent person can infer, based on a regular schooling experience, that home-schooling isn't necessarily conducive to learning how to interact with one's peers and deal with a structured environment outside the parents' home.
As someone who taught for 30 years in public schools AND has known many home-schooled parents and kids during the same time, I do have some familiarity with the subject.

The misunderstandings & stereotypes (often repeated by those who have not bothered to actually get to know home-schooled kids & situations) fail to recognize the scope of home-schooling these days. This isn't Abe Lincoln writing in charcoal on the back of shovel by the cabin fireplace in the backwoods.

Home-schooled kids often come from large families in which they interact with other kids all of the time (in addition to helping with raising siblings).

Home-schooled parents are often members of associations along with other home-schooled families. They often take field trips together, have recreational activities together, participate in theater, dance, music, and sports programs with other kids (including public school kids), and have different teachers (their parents are often highly-educated professionals who teach in their area of expertise).

Home-schooled kids often participate in mission trips and charitable pursuits such as tutoring low-income kids and serving as volunteers at soup kitchens, nursing homes, etc., allowing them to see many people from varied backgrounds that many of their public-schooled peers do not see.

Home-schooled kids are able to get out in the 'real world' (as a result of much more efficient lesson planning without time wasted for class changes, study hall, etc.) during the school day and have much more flexible schedules. Compare that to public school kids who sit in groups of 25-30 in classrooms all day long. Which environment seems to offer more opportunities for dealing with situations outside of a highly-structured environment?

Home-schooled kids are able to receive individual instruction at their own pace by someone who knows their strengths and weaknesses intimately (as opposed to teachers having to learn 150 or more new students each year). What parents wouldn't love to have a pupil-teacher ratio of 1-1?

Why would a home-schooled student who has learned appropriate behavior and discipline at home NOT be able to apply those lessons to environments outside the home? In fact, that is exactly what the college professors said...that the home-schooled students (in general) were much-better behaved, followed instructions better, took better notes, and completed assignments better than their average public-school peer.

I will concede that home-schoolers might not get to experience a lot of benefits that public school students face: getting to be bullied by anonymous strangers; having to put up with numerous distractions from kids around them; getting to stand out in the rain during bomb threats; being shell-shocked by an out-of-control classroom terrorizing an unqualified substitute teacher; being harassed in the bathroom or on the bus; learning all sorts of interesting words not included in the school handbook; getting to ogle thongs & cleavage while trying to complete the study guide; getting to change clothes and shower in front of strangers; getting to wolf down lunch; and many other fascinating activities.

Of course, I'm not sure how all of those things "prepare" kids for "interacting with one's peers" since MOST people's jobs have them working alongside people from the same socioeconomic class (just as most people tend to live in neighborhoods with people from the same socioeconomic backgrounds). I kind of doubt that engineers have to work alongside those who never even got their G.E.D. But I could be wrong. Maybe all of those who recite the same old lines about the benefits of "interacting with one's peers" graduate from medical school and then move into the projects to live (and hang out at the local juke joint rather than the country club).

Not wanting to give you too hard a time, but when I read lines such as "in a dank basement" describing home-schooled kids, I think it's time to set the record straight. I'm sure there are some home-schooled kids who live pretty isolated lives (just as I've seen a lot of withdrawn, picked-on kids in public schools), but I'd wager that they're in the minority. Most people make a huge sacrifice to home-school their kids, which usually means Mom staying at home. Their primary motivations are to provide their kids with a proper education (including religious instruction), and many send their kids to a private Christian school when they reach high school age. And then they go on to college, whether to Christian colleges (many with high academic standards) or to state or private colleges.

Some of the professions of home-schooled kids I've known: Sales manager, doctor, nurse, teacher, chemical engineer, military, savings & loan management, lab tech, construction, musician, homemaker.

Home schooling isn't for everybody. My mom was a public school teacher. I attended public schools all through college...loved some of it, hated lots of it. I honestly can't say that (outside of the state championship sports teams I was a part of) that I would have missed anything positive had I been home-schooled; on the other hand, I would have avoided a lot of the negatives (that I haven't had to deal with in my post-public school life). And, as a tuition student who lived a good distance from my public school zone, I never got to see my school "peers" after school except in extracurricular activities. On the other hand, I got to interact with the neighborhood kids (who attended county schools) and the kids at church...some from very different backgrounds. Likewise, the home-schooled kids play with the the public school kids in their neighborhoods.

I would like to ask: Do you think that public school with large herds of kids rubbing shoulders is an accurate reflection of what most people actually deal with after they get a job? And exactly what beneficial things does the public school student learn that a home-schooled kid can't?
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Old 09-25-13, 12:22 AM
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creekdipper, I won't reply to everything you wrote other than to say that I respect it and won't gainsay the 30 years of teaching experience you have, which I don't have.
As for "in a dank basement", I was referring not to home-schooled students, but specifically to moviefan2k, who, in his videos, looks like he's sitting in such a place. However, being something of a recluse myself, far be it for me to deride someone for not getting out. I was hypocritical.
Originally Posted by creekdipper
I would like to ask: Do you think that public school with large herds of kids rubbing shoulders is an accurate reflection of what most people actually deal with after they get a job?
Actually, yes, and even if a person ends up getting a job that entails working alone, which is rather atypical, I think the school experience is more often than not a beneficial part of childhood and emotional, mental, and intellectual growth.
And exactly what beneficial things does the public school student learn that a home-schooled kid can't?
As above, interacting with others, especially peers, which is much more liable to happen in a school setting than at home with Mom and Dad. Learning about conflict, disparate opinions and outlooks, and not always being coddled in the "family womb", is hugely important.
Equally importantly, being taught by qualified, educated teachers, not some parent who didn't like aspects of the state-approved curriculum, or whatever; which is not to say all home-schooling parents are unqualified, uneducated, or disgruntled with the public system. Also profitable is learning to respect people in positions of authority who are not parents. That, too, introduces the child to the way the world outside works. Again, I'm not saying a home-schooled child can't have these salutary experiences, but it is undeniably less likely.
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Old 09-25-13, 12:57 AM
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Re: Same Sex Marriage: 2018

Originally Posted by Norm de Plume View Post
Actually, yes, and even if a person ends up getting a job that entails working alone, which is rather atypical, I think the school experience is more often than not a beneficial part of childhood and emotional, mental, and intellectual growth.

As above, interacting with others, especially peers, which is much more liable to happen in a school setting than at home with Mom and Dad. Learning about conflict, disparate opinions and outlooks, and not always being coddled in the "family womb", is hugely important.
Equally importantly, being taught by qualified, educated teachers, not some parent who didn't like aspects of the state-approved curriculum, or whatever; which is not to say all home-schooling parents are unqualified, uneducated, or disgruntled with the public system. Also profitable is learning to respect people in positions of authority who are not parents. That, too, introduces the child to the way the world outside works. Again, I'm not saying a home-schooled child can't have these salutary experiences, but it is undeniably less likely.
Thanks for the response, Norm, and I won't argue that your opinion isn't equally valid. My point was that any educational venue (public, private, home-schooled) can be either negative or positive. I agree that public school CAN provide the benefits you mention but that there are also potential drawbacks; likewise, the concerns you expressed about home-schooling do occur. Just wanted to say that there are many advantages to home-schooling and that the kids don't have to be 'stunted' in their social development, especially the ones with lots of siblings. I went to a public high school with around 1500 kids in only three grades (graduating class 500) and had a handful of close friends; my wife went to a small school in which she knew all of the teachers and most of the kids. So public school experiences can be very different, too.

Re: the point about authority...most of the home-schooled kids I know have music instructors, Sunday School teachers (and other adult figures at church), coaches, neighbors who act as their 'boss' in baby-sitting and landscaping jobs, etc. The kids are, generally speaking, extremely respectful to authority (and often relate better to adults than many of their peers, although it varies). Of course, I can attest that I have met a FEW public school students who have problems with authority. The matter of respect for authority normally reflected what was taught at home, whether home-schooled or public-schooled. The public school kids who had trouble with authority were either taught that attitude by parents who coddled them, resented authority themselves, ignored the kids, or simply had little control over their kids. But I can see why you would have the perception you have since it does appeal to reason (even though it doesn't always work out that way).

I will agree about encountering different viewpoints, which I think is a primary reason parents home-school (to avoid their kids getting mixed messages). Aside from attending integrated schools, I can't think of much helpful that I learned from different viewpoints (although my best friend from grade 7-12 was totally different from me re: religious & political views). So I can see some benefits, although I also was scared to death a few times by older bullies and one wack job who liked to threaten to carve his initials into people's arms (along with some very violent, sadistic fantasies he described). My brother and I fought a lot at home, but I never had to worry about him going berserk during class. I guess that taught me to watch my back, but most schools don't advertise that at the PTSA meetings.

Anyway, I can understand better where you're coming from and hope I didn't come across as being too harsh (thanks for the explanation you gave). I just get my dander up sometimes when I think home-schooling is being misrepresented...just as I still defend public school teachers when I hear somebody saying how bad public school is. There's a place for both, I reckon.

Just to throw in an additional point for possible discussion, I do think that parents who home-school or send kids to private schools ought to get some tax funds (since the intent was to provide for kids' educations). Their parents pay taxes. too, and I think that they deserve some tax relief to help educate their kids.
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Old 09-25-13, 01:30 AM
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Re: Same Sex Marriage: 2018

^I think I agree with a lot of what you wrote. We have both qualified and modulated what we are saying, which is a key to the success of any dialectic. Very, very few things are absolutely black and white. No, you were not being too harsh. I also understand, speak, and respect the language of sarcasm. I apologize if I insinuated negative things about home-schooling that aren't the general rule.

I'm not sure if I concur with the tax break for home-schooling parents, but it's something to consider. I believe in society, the communal experience, and the need for taxes with such structure, and society has, over decades and centuries, enacted certain procedures, rules, and laws that are broadly regarded as being for the common good. One can opt out of some of them (e.g. public schooling), but not others (e.g. the prohibition on committing crimes), but I tend to be of the opinion that those who waive their participation do so of their own volition, of course, and should still be expected to put their money into the pot for the rest. I could be persuaded otherwise, but only with regard to this particular issue. It does make some sense, though it would deprive already-struggling public schools of funding.
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Old 09-25-13, 03:27 AM
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Re: Same Sex Marriage: 2018

Originally Posted by Norm de Plume View Post
As for "in a dank basement", I was referring not to home-schooled students, but specifically to moviefan2k4, who, in his videos, looks like he's sitting in such a place.
Actually, its my bedroom, which is a converted dining area in our two-bedroom apartment. The kitchen is literally next to my desk, separated by a partial wall.

Creek, you made a ton of great points, and I agree with almost all of them.
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Old 09-25-13, 04:28 AM
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Re: Same Sex Marriage: 2018

^17 year old freshman? what is wrong with you? something really screwy happened to you growing up.
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Old 09-25-13, 04:39 AM
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Re: Same Sex Marriage: 2018

I wanted to say I appreciate the long and well-written discussion between Norm and creek about homeschooling. I've seen both extremes of homeschooling. There's a little girl that lives down the street that is partially homeschooled (she goes to a public school once or twice a week for social interaction), and she seems very bright and extremely polite. Then there's a group of three boys across the street from us that are also homeschooled, and the one of them that's five can't even talk yet, as far as I can tell. The middle one of 7 or 8 years old once informed me "That's not us dog" when I asked about a dog he was chasing around. I don't think they're getting a proper education at all.

Now to bring a little humor into the discussion...

This is a clip from Movie 43. It has some NSFW language in it, so watch at your discretion.

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Old 09-25-13, 06:17 AM
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Re: Same Sex Marriage: 2018

Hom Skuline iz gud. Maks them kid smartr becuz it dont teech them kid abut stufs like evilooshin and homersexshul and stufs.
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Old 09-25-13, 07:14 AM
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Re: Same Sex Marriage: 2018

Originally Posted by Deadman31 View Post
^17 year old freshman? what is wrong with you? something really screwy happened to you growing up.
Many crazy things happened to me in my youth, but my schooling was simple. I started one year late, and was held back twice, repeating both 6th and 7th grade.
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Old 09-25-13, 07:37 AM
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Re: Same Sex Marriage: 2018

Originally Posted by Shagrath View Post
Now to bring a little humor into the discussion...

This is a clip from Movie 43.
But what about the humor?
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Old 09-25-13, 08:28 AM
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Re: Same Sex Marriage: 2018

I've seen good and bad come of home schooling, private schools and public schools. Typically, I think if the first two are well done, they result in a substantially higher level of education and knowledge that the last. That said, they also present the opportunity for a child to grow up completely sheltered from the outside world, which can have horrible effects. My parents sent me to very conservative, religious private schools all the way through high school. I saw a lot of people come out of that environment with no ability to regulate their behavior, as they'd been raised in a system that did that for them. Once they got into the real world and didn't have someone constantly dictating everything they did, a good number turned into pathetic losers and/or assholes. Lots of drugs, alcoholism, dropping out of college, losing jobs, cheating on spouses, etc. When a child gets gradual freedom and is exposed to life's pitfalls sporadically as they grow up, they learn how to handle it. When a sheltered adult is suddenly thrust into the real world and gets access to everything at once, the results can be pretty ugly.
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Old 09-25-13, 08:54 AM
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Re: Same Sex Marriage: 2018

Are there any studies showing the performance of the same students in a home school and public school environment? I would think any other comments on the efficacy of home schooling are somewhat irrelevant. Perhaps home schooling is still better, but without controlling for apathetic students and more importantly parents, a group it would seem doesn't exist by definition among the home school crowd, how do we know?
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Old 09-25-13, 01:38 PM
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Re: Same Sex Marriage: 2018

Originally Posted by moviefan2k4 View Post
... but my schooling was simple...
Indeed
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Old 09-25-13, 03:36 PM
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Re: Home Schooling: Pros and Cons

Mod Note: Thought this topic could use its own thread, and it was really off topic in the thread these posts were originally in.
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Old 09-25-13, 04:10 PM
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Re: Home Schooling: Pros and Cons

Pretty sure that the type of parents who are willing to home-school their children are also the type of parents who would be more involved in their children's lives, home-school or not. I guarantee that these same children would perform just as well in public school, as their parents would be just as involved should they go down that road. Therefore, it points out the need for parental involvement more than anything else.
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Old 09-25-13, 04:16 PM
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Re: Home Schooling: Pros and Cons

Good idea, this is a good topic of discussion.

To me, one of the major cons is too much time with mom and dad. I think one positive aspect of going to school every day is that it gets you away from that parental influence, and you are forced to sink or swim on your own. Independence is highly valued in our society and I think this is one way it develops.

Of course that also depends on the school, and in many cases I'm sure mom and dad time is better than being thrown to the wolves in an under performing school with a bad student body.

Ultimately the homeschooling debate is a little like the gay parenting debate to me. Just like on a technical level, I may agree a traditional mother and father is the ideal situation, I recognize that the gender of parents is ultimately a negligible factor compared to the many personal qualities that make a good parent - in the same way I think a student's development is shaped by many factors more important than the single criteria of whether they are schooled at home. It's not really something I feel comfortable making generalities about, given the extraordinary variations possible among different schools and parents.
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Old 09-25-13, 05:25 PM
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Re: Home Schooling: Pros and Cons

I'm with Pharoh, I would love to see some sound research on this, although I imagine it is a very tricky area to study for numerous reasons. In my experience, at the university I work at, I have seen both extremes. It seems like I see more homeschoolers who are ideal students, behavior wise, but also more home schoolers with serious gaps in their education. But, that is purely anecdotal and I think arguments can be made on all sides of this one...hence, someone (who is not too busy/lazy like me) should look in to what the research points to on this matter. Any takers?

Edit to add..l take this back sort of. The more and more I think about it, I do see a lot of students who went to poor public schools with major gaps in their education as well.

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Old 09-25-13, 05:29 PM
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Re: Home Schooling: Pros and Cons

Originally Posted by Nausicaa View Post
Good idea, this is a good topic of discussion.

To me, one of the major cons is too much time with mom and dad. I think one positive aspect of going to school every day is that it gets you away from that parental influence, and you are forced to sink or swim on your own. Independence is highly valued in our society and I think this is one way it develops.

Of course that also depends on the school, and in many cases I'm sure mom and dad time is better than being thrown to the wolves in an under performing school with a bad student body.

Ultimately the homeschooling debate is a little like the gay parenting debate to me. Just like on a technical level, I may agree a traditional mother and father is the ideal situation, I recognize that the gender of parents is ultimately a negligible factor compared to the many personal qualities that make a good parent - in the same way I think a student's development is shaped by many factors more important than the single criteria of whether they are schooled at home. It's not really something I feel comfortable making generalities about, given the extraordinary variations possible among different schools and parents.
This is an area of research I have spent time exploring and the results are becoming pretty clear. Same gender parents are every bit as good as opposite gender parents, and in some respects their children are better off. I know I have posted links to research on this before in this forum. As more and more research is being done on this topic, the conclusions are becoming more and more accepted. I doubt it's reached anything close to a scientific consensus yet (it is far too young of an area of study) but it is moving in that direction...
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Old 09-25-13, 05:44 PM
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Re: Home Schooling: Pros and Cons

I've found some home schooled kids to be very sheltered and ignorant of other cultures and world events. That's a major reason I could never see home schooling my kid if I ever have one.
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Old 09-25-13, 05:49 PM
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Re: Home Schooling: Pros and Cons

Con - Kid will become a social retard.
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Old 09-25-13, 05:51 PM
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Re: Home Schooling: Pros and Cons

How can you be sure he'll be social?
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