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what is so strict about chicagos gun laws?

Old 09-21-13, 05:53 AM
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what is so strict about chicagos gun laws?

everywhere i go i see articles about chicago violence and people comment about our strict gun laws. people post all kinds of stuff on facebook about the violence and the gun laws and leave the same lame comments over and over. "hows that gun ban going?", "but guns are illegal in chicago", "thats what happens when citizens cant have guns" ect.

multiple times i have asked people to explain what is so strict about our gun laws and i never get a response.

personally i have zero interest in guns so i never followed our gun laws. so out of curiosity i did a little googling and i couldnt find anything strict at all.

our hand gun ban was lifted in 2010, certain assault weapons are banned but not all (and really they are dangerous for home defense so who cares), we will soon be allowed to conceal and carry (thats a state law and wasnt just a chicago ban). guns arent sold in city limits (not sure why that would be a problem) and to get a conceal and carry permit you cant be a felon and have to take safety classes (sounds like good ideas to me). so what am i missing?
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Old 09-21-13, 08:31 AM
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Re: what is so strict about chicagos gun laws?

Chicagoians can't buy guns, and not buying guns makes Wayne Lapierre a sad panda...
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Old 09-21-13, 08:37 AM
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Re: what is so strict about chicagos gun laws?

You can't buy guns in Chicago.

Otherwise, nothing really. They didn't allow concealed carry until July of this year, otherwise the laws aren't all that different - oh yeah, no "assault weapons". If you live in the state you have to have a Firearm ID of sorts, I guess maybe people don't like that since it isn't a free for all on arms? I dunno.

Turns out you can leave Chicago and purchase weapons right outside of the city limits.
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Old 09-21-13, 10:24 AM
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Re: what is so strict about chicagos gun laws?

You ca only use a gun to kill 10 people a night. After that, it becomes a "big deal."
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Old 09-21-13, 10:24 AM
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Re: what is so strict about chicagos gun laws?

Originally Posted by chino77 View Post
everywhere i go i see articles about chicago violence and people comment about our strict gun laws... so what am i missing?
Similar to a town banning the sale of Twinkies, and every town located a few miles away or so from the anti-Twinkie town...sells Twinkies with no such laws enacted.

Twinkies are brought to the anti-Twinkie Town, however, where they are bought and sold on the black market, and those who sell the Twinkies, make a rather good profit off the high demand, because one town is stupid enough to think the banning of Twinkies...is going to make a difference.
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Old 09-21-13, 11:18 AM
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Re: what is so strict about chicagos gun laws?

So its pretty much just a bunch of idiots thinking we aren't allowed guns of any type in the city limits.
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Old 09-21-13, 11:27 AM
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Re: what is so strict about chicagos gun laws?

Originally Posted by chino77 View Post
So its pretty much just a bunch of idiots thinking we aren't allowed guns of any type in the city limits.
No, it's people trying to score political points by lying about how you're not allowed to own guns. Big difference.
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Old 09-21-13, 12:06 PM
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Re: what is so strict about chicagos gun laws?

Originally Posted by chino77 View Post
everywhere i go i see articles about chicago violence and people comment about our strict gun laws. people post all kinds of stuff on facebook about the violence and the gun laws and leave the same lame comments over and over. "hows that gun ban going?", "but guns are illegal in chicago", "thats what happens when citizens cant have guns" ect.
Point people toward the evidence. Countries with fewer guns like Britain typically have less gun violence. And here's a new study published in the American Journal of Public Health.

Of course, many people making the lame comments are intellectually disabled in the sense that they consider their personal opinion more important than evidence. But a few people might seriously consider the evidence.

The Relationship Between Gun Ownership and Firearm Homicide Rates in the United States, 1981-2010

Results. Gun ownership was a significant predictor of firearm homicide rates (incidence rate ratio = 1.009; 95% confidence interval = 1.004, 1.014). This model indicated that for each percentage point increase in gun ownership, the firearm homicide rate increased by 0.9%.

Conclusions. We observed a robust correlation between higher levels of gun ownership and higher firearm homicide rates. Although we could not determine causation, we found that states with higher rates of gun ownership had disproportionately large numbers of deaths from firearm-related homicides.
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Old 09-21-13, 12:55 PM
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Re: what is so strict about chicagos gun laws?

Originally Posted by chino77 View Post
So its pretty much just a bunch of idiots thinking we aren't allowed guns of any type in the city limits.
No, it's pretty much a historical artifact of when Chicago's gun laws were completely asinine. Thanks to their hand being forced by a number of judicial decisions, the gun laws in Chicago are moving towards parity with the rest of the country. Touting the fact that you can now possess a handgun only within the confines of your own home (and until two weeks ago you had to have a permit to do even that), and touting that within the next six months people will be able to apply for a concealed carry permit still puts Chicago as one of the most burdensome locales for gun owners.
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Old 09-21-13, 03:14 PM
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Re: what is so strict about chicagos gun laws?

Originally Posted by Ghostbuster View Post
Point people toward the evidence. Countries with fewer guns like Britain typically have less gun violence. And here's a new study published in the American Journal of Public Health.

Of course, many people making the lame comments are intellectually disabled in the sense that they consider their personal opinion more important than evidence. But a few people might seriously consider the evidence.

The Relationship Between Gun Ownership and Firearm Homicide Rates in the United States, 1981-2010
Nobody has ever answered the question with concrete evidence of why gun violence is targeted versus the many other forms of violent deaths which greatly outnumber those gun-related deaths.

While I view that publication as pretty much a common sense article (i.e., "No Shit, Sherlock")--more guns will automatically show an increase in gun deaths--this doesn't mean we should restrict guns at all.

However, people who use this article for furtherance of their cause...only demonstrates the un-intellectual approach to solving a much greater problem The United States has had for hundreds of years.

Should it surprise you that if more people were married...we'd see an increase in domestic violence in the home? Doesn't mean we should ban marriage, but I see this type of logic all the time, and again, does not go to the root of the problem.
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Old 09-21-13, 04:19 PM
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Re: what is so strict about chicagos gun laws?

Originally Posted by DVD Polizei View Post
Nobody has ever answered the question with concrete evidence of why gun violence is targeted versus the many other forms of violent deaths which greatly outnumber those gun-related deaths.

While I view that publication as pretty much a common sense article (i.e., "No Shit, Sherlock")--more guns will automatically show an increase in gun deaths--this doesn't mean we should restrict guns at all.

However, people who use this article for furtherance of their cause...only demonstrates the un-intellectual approach to solving a much greater problem The United States has had for hundreds of years.

Should it surprise you that if more people were married...we'd see an increase in domestic violence in the home? Doesn't mean we should ban marriage, but I see this type of logic all the time, and again, does not go to the root of the problem.
You make a good point. However, I wonder, if more guns "breed" more violence of all kinds. Not just gun violence. Do places with less guns only have less gun violence or less violence overall?

Regardless, to the OP, my guess is that those that feel they should be able to buy a gun with a hotdog on the corner of a street feel Chicago has tough gun laws.
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Old 09-21-13, 07:11 PM
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Re: what is so strict about chicagos gun laws?

Originally Posted by CaptainMarvel View Post
No, it's pretty much a historical artifact of when Chicago's gun laws were completely asinine. Thanks to their hand being forced by a number of judicial decisions, the gun laws in Chicago are moving towards parity with the rest of the country. Touting the fact that you can now possess a handgun only within the confines of your own home (and until two weeks ago you had to have a permit to do even that), and touting that within the next six months people will be able to apply for a concealed carry permit still puts Chicago as one of the most burdensome locales for gun owners.
Yes the key word being WERE. And the concealed law was a state law not a Chicago one. I'm not arguing that our laws were strict but they have changed and people keep spouting shit like its still the same as always.and really why are permits a bad thing?
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Old 09-21-13, 07:12 PM
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Re: what is so strict about chicagos gun laws?

Originally Posted by Jason View Post
No, it's people trying to score political points by lying about how you're not allowed to own guns. Big difference.
I think its a mix of the 2.
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Old 09-21-13, 07:16 PM
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Re: what is so strict about chicagos gun laws?

Originally Posted by Ghostbuster View Post
Point people toward the evidence. Countries with fewer guns like Britain typically have less gun violence. And here's a new study published in the American Journal of Public Health.

Of course, many people making the lame comments are intellectually disabled in the sense that they consider their personal opinion more important than evidence. But a few people might seriously consider the evidence.

The Relationship Between Gun Ownership and Firearm Homicide Rates in the United States, 1981-2010
Well our murder rate has gone up each year since the hand gun ban was lifted. Except for this yr which has been unseasonably cold,which I think is the real reason. Not saying the ban being lifted has anything to do with any of the numbers but I never see people mentioning it.
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Old 09-21-13, 07:57 PM
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Re: what is so strict about chicagos gun laws?

Originally Posted by chino77 View Post
So its pretty much just a bunch of idiots thinking we aren't allowed guns of any type in the city limits.
I would say it is likely a bunch of people who don't follow the laws (much like yourself) and don't know that you can actually have a hand gun now (3 years and going strong ) and how some day in the near future you will be able to have a concealed weapon if you meet the criteria. Hell, Chicago is practically Texas with how they've progressed. Why, some day one might even be able to purchase a legal product like a gun in Chicago.

Yeah, it's overblown. How have those gun restrictions treated Chicago? I'll assume the answer is "just imagine how many crimes there would have been if we could sell guns inside city limits, have a concealed weapons permit, etc."

If there was another legal product (like large colas in New York) that you couldn't buy in city limits, would you wonder why people think your laws are so strict? Or is it because of your own attitude (apathy) towards them?
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Old 09-21-13, 08:04 PM
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Re: what is so strict about chicagos gun laws?

Image if we made this same argument with the first amendment and pointed to Britain having the BBC instead of FOX, CNN, MSNBC, etc. One could likely find reasons we shouldn't have a free press because of the bad blood it fuels. One could even likely find that the first amendment allows for more racism and if we had Danish type laws where you could be prosecuted for making racist statements, racism would go down. Racism going down is a good thing. And all we have to do is tweak the first amendment.

I could seriously be persuaded to restrict our news agencies. I think they do more harm than good with how they sensationalize everything. All it would take is a little work on the first amendment. Why would that be so bad?
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Old 09-21-13, 08:34 PM
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Re: what is so strict about chicagos gun laws?

The people getting shot in Chicago are not, for the most part, people who are in situations where they would have defended themselves with a gun but for Chicago's laws.
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Old 09-21-13, 08:37 PM
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Re: what is so strict about chicagos gun laws?

We'll have to assume that is true given that they didn't have the option to do so.

If only those doing the shooting would take a look at the laws and see that what they are doing is wrong.
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Old 09-21-13, 08:44 PM
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Re: what is so strict about chicagos gun laws?

Originally Posted by chino77 View Post
Yes the key word being WERE. And the concealed law was a state law not a Chicago one. I'm not arguing that our laws were strict but they have changed and people keep spouting shit like its still the same as always.
I'm not sure you get to claim "were" quite yet. The state hasn't even begun accepting applications yet for CCW licenses, so I'd suggest maybe it's a little premature to start trying to whitewash Chicago's image on gun rights, especially when Chicago pols fought the implementation tooth and nail, and imposed rules in the state law to discourage people from exercising the right:
Originally Posted by Illinois State Senator Kwame Raoul
"If you think about all the prohibited places there are," Raoul said, "I donít think you will see an overwhelming number of people actually (carrying weapons) because it becomes such a headache."
Then in a tremendous display of butthurt, the Chicago pols passed numerous local rules further restricting the right (eg., even with a permit, you can't carry a concealed weapon into a restaurant that serves any alcohol, even if you aren't drinking yourself).

As it stands right now, there's still no concealed carry in Chicago, and even once that gets phased out by the implementation of the new state CCW law, thanks to special ordinances in Chicago and Cook County, the gun laws that remain in place for Chicago are still far stricter than what's typical for the United States ("hi-cap" magazine bans that prohibit magazines that hold in excess of 10 rounds, for example, when standard magazines for nearly any non-revolver hold between 13-19 rounds).

And yeah, the lack of concealed carry was from state law, but it was a state law driven by the powers in Chicago. There was already support from downstaters for concealed carry, and but for opposition from Chicago concealed carry would have been a reality much sooner. And, again, quite frankly, if a federal judge hadn't ruled that the total ban on concealed carry was illegal, the ban would likely have still been in place. You can't just pin Chicago's gun-unfriendly reputation on the state; that reputation stems almost wholly from Chicago politics.

and really why are permits a bad thing?
We're talking about requiring a permit to merely keep a firearm inside your home. IMO, requiring a permit to exercise a constitutional right inside the confines of your own home is appalling. It's a right. It's not a privilege.

Well our murder rate has gone up each year since the hand gun ban was lifted. Except for this yr which has been unseasonably cold,which I think is the real reason.
The murder rate isn't really doing anything unusual. The numbers have hovered right around the same spot. Chicago has always had a fairly high murder rate, and its drops and rises are cyclical.

Murder rate (per 100,000):
2001: 23.0
2002: 22.4
2003: 22.6
2004: 15.7
2005: 15.6
2006: 16.4
2007: 15.6
2008: 18
2009: 16.1
2010: 15.2
2011: 15.9
2012: 18.7

The total handgun ban was struck down mid-2010. If you look at 2010 and the two years prior, the average murder rate was 16.43. If you look at 2010 and the two following years, the average murder rate was 16.6. That's not a significant difference.

That rate is a lot lower than some places with concealed carry (New Orleans), and a lot higher than other places with concealed carry. IMO, anybody who attributes Chicago's high violence to the city's relatively strict gun laws is misguided (violence of any sort has more to do with poverty), but I do think it's a fair criticism to say that Chicago's gun laws didn't seem to do a whole hell of a lot of good, while simultaneously grossly infringing on American rights.
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Old 09-21-13, 08:56 PM
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Re: what is so strict about chicagos gun laws?

Originally Posted by DVD Polizei View Post
However, people who use this article for furtherance of their cause...only demonstrates the un-intellectual approach to solving a much greater problem The United States has had for hundreds of years.
There is a strong correlation between poverty and violent crime. Other developed countries have less poverty and violent crime.

We need to establish a living wage, increase employment (e.g. stimulus), and pass common sense gun restrictions such as universal background checks. But the Republicans will block all of these measures due to their warped ideology.

The article does not establish cause, but it does demonstrate that the NRA is clueless. The organization thinks that the solution to violent crime is...more guns.
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Old 09-21-13, 10:06 PM
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Re: what is so strict about chicagos gun laws?

Originally Posted by kvrdave View Post
We'll have to assume that is true given that they didn't have the option to do so.
A significant portion of Chicago's gun violence victims are, themselves, armed notwithstanding the law. Another significant portion are people out and about in neighborhoods beset by gun violence. The classic situations where a gun might be useful for defense -- a home invasion, a mugging, etc. -- are not what is driving the statistics.

If only those doing the shooting would take a look at the laws and see that what they are doing is wrong.
I don't think gang kids are going to obey gun laws, but it does give law enforcement a tool to get them off the street. I don't think that outweighs the downsides of banning gun ownership, but the whole "criminals don't obey gun laws so they're useless!" is the kind of moronic, facile argument I'd expect from Wayne La Pierre, not someone as smart as you.
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Old 09-22-13, 02:39 AM
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Re: what is so strict about chicagos gun laws?

Which of these government regulations would you consider infringing on a constitutional right:

A. Requiring:

1. A special state ID
2. The citizen to be fingerprinted
3. The citizen pass a background check
4. The citizen to take 5 hours training
5. The citizen to pass a physical test at a facility which is illegal within the ordinance jurisdiction
6. A local permit
7. The citizen to pass a second background check
8. A registration form

The applications can take up to 210 days to process, costs $125 in fees plus another $150+ for required training.

OR

B. Requiring:

1. Free registration, in person or by mail
2. one of several common federal or state photo ID cards, including one provided by the state for free on a walk-in basis

Last edited by wmansir; 09-22-13 at 03:55 AM.
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Old 09-22-13, 03:26 AM
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Re: what is so strict about chicagos gun laws?

Oh boy

Now that the anti-Christian thread is closed, I guess this is where the entertainment is going to be.

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Old 09-22-13, 08:46 AM
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Re: what is so strict about chicagos gun laws?

Originally Posted by Count Dooku View Post
Oh boy

Now that the anti-Christian thread is closed, I guess this is where the entertainment is going to be.

You mean that "anti-Christian" thread started by a fundamentalist Christian?
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Old 09-22-13, 10:51 AM
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Re: what is so strict about chicagos gun laws?

Originally Posted by wmansir View Post
Which of these government regulations would you consider infringing on a constitutional right:

A. Requiring:

1. A special state ID
2. The citizen to be fingerprinted
3. The citizen pass a background check
4. The citizen to take 5 hours training
5. The citizen to pass a physical test at a facility which is illegal within the ordinance jurisdiction
6. A local permit
7. The citizen to pass a second background check
8. A registration form

The applications can take up to 210 days to process, costs $125 in fees plus another $150+ for required training.

OR

B. Requiring:

1. Free registration, in person or by mail
2. one of several common federal or state photo ID cards, including one provided by the state for free on a walk-in basis
Well done.
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