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Are the US and Russia in a "cool war?"

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Are the US and Russia in a "cool war?"

Old 08-09-13, 10:40 PM
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Re: Are the US and Russia in a "cool war?"

Originally Posted by Pharoh View Post
ETA: Despite what I think about the surveillance programs, I still think snowden is a no hero, and likely is a traitor out for personal gain and nothing more.
This is how I feel as well. I have serious concerns about the programs at issue, though I don't believe they violate the Fourth Amendment. That said, I think Snowden and Glenn Greenwald have carefully measured their release of documents in a way intended to maximize public outrage. I will let others draw their own conclusions as to why they are doing so.
Old 08-09-13, 10:45 PM
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Re: Are the US and Russia in a "cool war?"

Originally Posted by Locomocha View Post
If you were running the show, what is the last thing you want the U.S. public talking about with regards to this mess? If they're talking about the evils of Russia and Putin, you're doing just grand. Talk about whether or not Snowden is a whistle-blower or a dirty, rotten, stinking, traitor is also much preferable to the very *last* thing you want them talking about. There's not much talk about that last thing here, surprisingly.
I think the President has been about as open in discussing these programs as one could realistically expect any president to be.

I am also puzzled by the outrage that Snowden is not being feted as a hero by the administration. The man took classified documents and released them to the public. Whatever you think of the merits or legality of the program he exposed, that is not something any administration could ever condone.
Old 08-09-13, 11:01 PM
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Re: Are the US and Russia in a "cool war?"

I'm not expecting the administration to hold him up as a hero, but ten people in US history have been charged under the Espionage Act, and seven of those have been under Obama's administration. I think that is far, far more telling than the rate or order that Snowden and Greenwald are releasing documents.
Old 08-09-13, 11:13 PM
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Re: Are the US and Russia in a "cool war?"

I think that the increase of people being charged under the Espionage Act is far more telling of the age we live in than any particular administration.
Old 08-10-13, 12:33 AM
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Re: Are the US and Russia in a "cool war?"

Originally Posted by Supermallet View Post
I'm not expecting the administration to hold him up as a hero, but ten people in US history have been charged under the Espionage Act, and seven of those have been under Obama's administration. I think that is far, far more telling than the rate or order that Snowden and Greenwald are releasing documents.
I've seen this reported in a number of places -- originally Slate, I think -- and I simply don't understand it. All you need to do is skim the wikipedia article on the Espionage Act and you'll see that it's absolutely not true.

People charged under the Espionage Act include Daniel Ellsberg, Ethel and Julius Rosenberg, Eugene Debs, Samuel Morrison, Lawrence Franklin, Kate Richards O'Hare, Alfred Zehe, and Jonathan Pollard, to name just a few. Literally hundreds of people were prosecuted under the Act during the World War I-era Red Scare.

I am not suggesting that all of those prosecutions were justified, though clearly some of them were. But it is flat out false to say (as Slate did) that only three people were prosecuted under the Espionage Act prior to President Obama.
Old 08-10-13, 03:21 AM
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Re: Are the US and Russia in a "cool war?"

Originally Posted by JasonF View Post
Snowden took classified documentation about a program that is, by all accounts, being operated in line with Congressionally passed legislation and subject to judicial oversight, and he disclosed those classified documents to the press rather than a Congressional inspector or the OIG. That is not whistleblowing by any stretch of the imagination.
My understanding was that there were several senators (Wyden comes to mind) that asked questions about these things to the head of the NSA, Holder, and others, while they were under oath, and we now know that they lied through their teeth. Are you suggesting that the outrage by those in Congress is merely blustering to appear ignorant of what was going on?
Old 08-10-13, 03:25 AM
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Re: Are the US and Russia in a "cool war?"

Perhaps they're referring to a specific clause of the law? I have to get to bed so I can't research it right now.
Old 08-10-13, 04:49 AM
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Re: Are the US and Russia in a "cool war?"

Originally Posted by JasonF View Post
Snowden took classified documentation about a program that is, by all accounts, being operated in line with Congressionally passed legislation and subject to judicial oversight, and he disclosed those classified documents to the press rather than a Congressional inspector or the OIG. That is not whistleblowing by any stretch of the imagination.
Whistleblower definition: an informant who exposes wrong doing within an organization in the hope of stopping it

Apparently these programs were sold to congress under false pretenses. Clapper himself lied under oath about the extent of the NSA program.

Thomas Tamm would also NOT be considered a whistleblower under your definition.
Old 08-10-13, 06:52 AM
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Re: Are the US and Russia in a "cool war?"

I think the problem is that Pooty-Poot just doesn't care about diplomacy anymore. When he was first elected president, he had to pretend that he was just another head of state. Now, he's basically a dictator who has no need to play nice with his inferiors. He's going to do whatever he wants. After all, who is going to stop him? It's not like he'll be tossed out of office at the next election.
Old 08-10-13, 10:52 AM
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Re: Are the US and Russia in a "cool war?"

Originally Posted by kvrdave View Post
My understanding was that there were several senators (Wyden comes to mind) that asked questions about these things to the head of the NSA, Holder, and others, while they were under oath, and we now know that they lied through their teeth. Are you suggesting that the outrage by those in Congress is merely blustering to appear ignorant of what was going on?
I wouldn't call it blustering, but in essence, yes. Senator Wyden is on the Senate Intelligence Committee. He knew about this program long before he asked Clapper that question. The question was an attempt to bring out to the public some things that Wyden wanted publicly debated, but he knew what the answer was when he asked that question.

I don't in any way excuse Clapper's answer and think he should be prosecuted for perjuring himself to Congress. But I also don't think his lie deceived any of the Senators in that hearing.

I'm not aware of lies from Holder or others that you reference. Can you provide more detail?
Old 08-10-13, 11:05 AM
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Re: Are the US and Russia in a "cool war?"

Originally Posted by JasonF View Post
This is how I feel as well. I have serious concerns about the programs at issue, though I don't believe they violate the Fourth Amendment.
Let me amend my earlier statement: I do not believe these programs violate the Fourth Amendment when used for intelligence gathering. When the data gathered is transferred without a warrant and used for criminal prosecution -- as we have now learned is apparently the case with certain drug prosecutions -- they most definitely do violate the Fourth Amendment.
Old 08-10-13, 11:10 AM
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Re: Are the US and Russia in a "cool war?"

Damn it, my thread has become NSA 2.0.
Old 08-10-13, 11:24 AM
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Re: Are the US and Russia in a "cool war?"

Originally Posted by VinVega View Post
Damn it, my thread has become NSA 2.0.
Sorry.
Old 08-10-13, 01:54 PM
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Re: Are the US and Russia in a "cool war?"

Originally Posted by JasonF View Post
I wouldn't call it blustering, but in essence, yes. Senator Wyden is on the Senate Intelligence Committee. He knew about this program long before he asked Clapper that question. The question was an attempt to bring out to the public some things that Wyden wanted publicly debated, but he knew what the answer was when he asked that question.

I don't in any way excuse Clapper's answer and think he should be prosecuted for perjuring himself to Congress. But I also don't think his lie deceived any of the Senators in that hearing.

I'm not aware of lies from Holder or others that you reference. Can you provide more detail?
not really. I just follow the stuff here, and thought Holder was one of the guys who lied about it. I could absolutely be wrong.
Old 08-10-13, 02:56 PM
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Re: Are the US and Russia in a "cool war?"

I'd say it's more like a "Frozen War" because it's interesting to watch something like RT and see the pre-90s cold war mentality still going strong. But I can hardly say I blame them. We're encroaching on them more than ever before with our expanding NATO partnerships and they're not exactly cozying up to the Chinese or any other formidable potential allies.

On the flip-side, we freak out when they send warships to Venezuela, so maybe that cold war mentality still exists here as well.
Old 08-10-13, 03:18 PM
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Re: Are the US and Russia in a "cool war?"

Originally Posted by Jason View Post
I think the problem is that Pooty-Poot just doesn't care about diplomacy anymore. When he was first elected president, he had to pretend that he was just another head of state. Now, he's basically a dictator who has no need to play nice with his inferiors. He's going to do whatever he wants. After all, who is going to stop him? It's not like he'll be tossed out of office at the next election.
It wasn't until you mentioned the next election that I figured out you were talking about Putin and not Obama.
Old 08-10-13, 08:37 PM
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Re: Are the US and Russia in a "cool war?"

The problem with Russia (if it is a problem) is due to the US enabling their political behavior by acting just as stupid and selfish.

I don't see why anyone should blame Russia for ills when the US has one hell of a list as well.

Russia wants respect. We haven't given it to them. I'm not talking about respect like most Americans view it.

Here we ask Russia to limit their programs, but yet in the same statement tell Putin we aren't legally liable for limiting our defenses.

What. The Fuck.

The US won't get anywhere with that kind of attitude. You have to sacrifice in order for others to do the same.

You accuse Russia of human rights violations, but what about China?

We get silence from the US on that issue as well.

Obama then criticizes Russia over Gay Rights. That's their issue. They need to work it out. We need to stay the hell out of it.

Must be nice traveling the world, informing other leaders of how wrong they are, and how the US is such an awesome role model.

Is it really too hard to fathom why Russia doesn't necessarily appreciate another fucking retard who thinks they can tell the world how to act.

Russia needs to align with China and give the US the big middle finger.

The US simply doesn't want to "help" and would rather tote itself around the world, proclaiming they know best.

Yeah, ok.
Old 08-28-13, 04:05 PM
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Re: Are the US and Russia in a "cool war?"

It's not such a big deal .. nothing new anyhow ...
Old 08-28-13, 08:22 PM
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Re: Are the US and Russia in a "cool war?"

Cool is the new cool.
Old 08-29-13, 06:58 PM
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Re: Are the US and Russia in a "cool war?"

Now this is just unfair:

Old 08-29-13, 07:00 PM
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Re: Are the US and Russia in a "cool war?"

No need to be in a "cool" war ... as Putin is "cool" already
Old 08-29-13, 07:21 PM
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Re: Are the US and Russia in a "cool war?"

As discussed, Putin is definitely a Bond villain.

Swimming champ:



Accomplished horseman:



Judo master



Biker:



Mysterious connection with nature:




Exploring in mini-submarine:



Tagging tigers:



Classical pianist:



And of course, ex-KGB:

Old 08-29-13, 07:24 PM
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Re: Are the US and Russia in a "cool war?"

Old 08-29-13, 07:26 PM
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Re: Are the US and Russia in a "cool war?"

Yes .. I know Putin quite well ... I am originally from Moscow, Russia / USSR ( living in Canada now ) ...

Putin is an ex-KGB dude .. they train there quite well
Old 08-29-13, 08:30 PM
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Re: Are the US and Russia in a "cool war?"

Well, Putin was elected in a real election and he's behaving as a real politician: appealing to Russian patriotism to attract voters among ordinary working-class Russians and rural voters. They are the Russian equivalent of our tea partiers, who long for the "good old days."

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