Go Back  DVD Talk Forum > General Discussions > Religion, Politics and World Events
Reload this Page >

Consequences of Adam and Eve, the Flood, et. al.

Religion, Politics and World Events They make great dinner conversation, don't you think? plus Political Film

Consequences of Adam and Eve, the Flood, et. al.

Old 07-31-13, 06:18 PM
  #151  
DVD Talk Reviewer
 
Boba Fett's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 6,131
Likes: 0
Received 3 Likes on 3 Posts
Re: Consequences of Adam and Eve, the Flood, et. al.

Old 07-31-13, 06:25 PM
  #152  
DVD Talk Legend
 
The Valeyard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Building attractions one theme park at a time.
Posts: 10,797
Received 74 Likes on 44 Posts
Re: Consequences of Adam and Eve, the Flood, et. al.

Originally Posted by Josh-da-man View Post

So you're implying that Noah had Dimensionally Transcendental technology in 2300 B.C.? That's ridiculous! Even the Doctor would stay away from that mess.
Old 07-31-13, 06:38 PM
  #153  
Moderator
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: In mourning
Posts: 27,373
Received 155 Likes on 107 Posts
Re: Consequences of Adam and Eve, the Flood, et. al.

Originally Posted by kvrdave View Post

And here I didn't think you believed in faith. You have to really get into fringe atheist books to believe that. It is a group about like Young Earth Creationists. They want that to be true so badly that they quit looking at scholarly research and just join conspiracy theory thinking, while repeating what others in the group say.

Even when looking at "good" atheist scholars it is an incredible minority belief.
That is changing. The research, literature, and the science is getting both better and moving directions. Hence why I said our children's lifetime's. (And again, there need not be any conspiracy).


Originally Posted by kvrdave View Post
Ha! I'm better than you because I can.

I am sure on some days, both my wife and children would agree, but....

I will be an empty nester much sooner than you however.



I would though like to hear you expound on that specific some time.
Old 07-31-13, 06:53 PM
  #154  
DVD Talk God
 
kvrdave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Pacific NW
Posts: 86,190
Received 8 Likes on 5 Posts
Re: Consequences of Adam and Eve, the Flood, et. al.

Originally Posted by Pharoh View Post
That is changing. The research, literature, and the science is getting both better and moving directions. Hence why I said our children's lifetime's. (And again, there need not be any conspiracy).
Believe me when I tell you that I mean no offense at this, but I've heard that same thing from Young Earth Creationists as well. New findings in science show that blah, blah, blah. I'll admit I have watched, followed, or read much on it in about 3 years, but I absolutely ate all that shit up for years, whether it be YEC stuff, Jesus myth stuff, apocryphal stuff, archaeology, etc.

Here is where the biggest logical fallacy comes from in those things. First, people have always been relatively smart. People built pyramids, etc. The human brain today is capable of essentially the same as it has been capable for the past 10,000 years or so. The only real difference is that we are fortunate enough to have more people, and more people who don't have to farm, so we have ultimately more people who can devote their studies to this. In this case, that actually isn't a good thing for your side.

But beyond that, the biggest fallacy of that thinking is that because research "appears to be going in this direction" that it will continue to do so. That gets a lot of people in trouble.

But forget all of that. Read this. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bart-d...b_1349544.html

Bart Ehrman is an absolute scholar. And describes himself as a "happy agnostic." He wrote Misquoting Jesus, and a few others. When you look at credentials, you simply can't get much better than this guy, and he writes in an engaging way. I will likely pick up his new book "Did Jesus Exist?" simply because he is enjoyable, even when I disagree with him.





I am sure on some days, both my wife and children would agree, but....

I will be an empty nester much sooner than you however.



I would though like to hear you expound on that specific some time.
Perhaps some day.
Old 07-31-13, 06:57 PM
  #155  
DVD Talk Hero
 
Th0r S1mpson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 36,438
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
Re: Consequences of Adam and Eve, the Flood, et. al.

Moviefan, most of the comments and questions here appear to be intended to mock you rather than to actually understand your beliefs, yet you have taken the time to address them any way. For that I commend you.
Old 07-31-13, 07:02 PM
  #156  
Moderator
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: In mourning
Posts: 27,373
Received 155 Likes on 107 Posts
Re: Consequences of Adam and Eve, the Flood, et. al.

Originally Posted by kvrdave View Post
Believe me when I tell you that I mean no offense at this, but I've heard that same thing from Young Earth Creationists as well. New findings in science show that blah, blah, blah. I'll admit I have watched, followed, or read much on it in about 3 years, but I absolutely ate all that shit up for years, whether it be YEC stuff, Jesus myth stuff, apocryphal stuff, archaeology, etc.

Here is where the biggest logical fallacy comes from in those things. First, people have always been relatively smart. People built pyramids, etc. The human brain today is capable of essentially the same as it has been capable for the past 10,000 years or so. The only real difference is that we are fortunate enough to have more people, and more people who don't have to farm, so we have ultimately more people who can devote their studies to this. In this case, that actually isn't a good thing for your side.

But beyond that, the biggest fallacy of that thinking is that because research "appears to be going in this direction" that it will continue to do so. That gets a lot of people in trouble.

But forget all of that. Read this. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bart-d...b_1349544.html

Bart Ehrman is an absolute scholar. And describes himself as a "happy agnostic." He wrote Misquoting Jesus, and a few others. When you look at credentials, you simply can't get much better than this guy, and he writes in an engaging way. I will likely pick up his new book "Did Jesus Exist?" simply because he is enjoyable, even when I disagree with him.






I really know how research works, and if the tides turn another way, I will accept that. I am not blindly wedded to the idea that the historical jesus is a myth, but certainly feel that will be where the "consensus" goes. And I don't say that lightly.

As for Ehrman, he was already been crucified for his many factual errors and selection bias in his new work. I had already read the post you linked, but probably will wait until a free copy of his book reaches my hands.
Old 07-31-13, 07:14 PM
  #157  
DVD Talk God
 
kvrdave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Pacific NW
Posts: 86,190
Received 8 Likes on 5 Posts
Re: Consequences of Adam and Eve, the Flood, et. al.

Just like the moon landing, man.
Old 07-31-13, 07:30 PM
  #158  
DVD Talk Ultimate Edition
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Unknown
Posts: 4,091
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Re: Consequences of Adam and Eve, the Flood, et. al.

Even my JW wife and her family believe the flood myth was a "localized" event...and they are JWs! When you "out fundie" the JWs, you have reached some rarified air indeed!

On a serious note, not every one has the ability to do in depth critical thinking and analysis. I'm not judging, as there are many people like this of all types (atheist, theist, etc.). For example, I'm pretty good with statistics. When I was taking my graduate statistics classes I could truly understand and visualize what was happening in the equations at a point far beyond most of my classmates...up until a point. At a certain point it was simply beyond my ability to grasp the equations in such an in-depth way. Others were never able to do so and some continued to grasp them. At that point I just focused on learning the gist of what the statistical analysis was doing and when to use it. It frustrated me, as I was used to truly getting it, but alas, I reached my upper limits. We all have upper limits, and they were not all created equally. The most important thing is to accurately realize where those upper limits are and to admit to them. It makes life a whole lot easier...
Old 07-31-13, 07:39 PM
  #159  
DVD Talk Legend
 
DaveyJoe's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Maryland
Posts: 19,260
Received 133 Likes on 96 Posts
Re: Consequences of Adam and Eve, the Flood, et. al.

Originally Posted by Navinabob View Post
I coulda swore the church saying that masterbasing is wrong and it'll make you go blind. How did Noah pilot the ship?
Masturbating. I feel like we've gone through this before. ...Unless you really are talking about basing yourself in sweet, forbidden juices.
Old 07-31-13, 08:16 PM
  #160  
Moderator
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: In mourning
Posts: 27,373
Received 155 Likes on 107 Posts
Re: Consequences of Adam and Eve, the Flood, et. al.

Originally Posted by kvrdave View Post
Just like the moon landing, man.
Well, except for you know, evidence. And physics and chemistry and astronomy and math and all of those other pesky sciences.

The reality is, there is scant evidence for the existence of a historical jesus. It all really rests on a few fragments dated years after the supposed events, a little textual analysis, the belief that there is no other possible explanation, and the writings of Paul, at least the ones he wrote. The last of which boils down, well why would he say he talked to somebody who didn't exist.

I know there is a bit more to it than that, but to compare the doubting of an extraordinary claim that has almost zero evidence to disbelieving the moon landing is incredibly silly.
Old 07-31-13, 08:24 PM
  #161  
DVD Talk Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Formerly known as Groucho AND Bandoman/Death Moans, Iowa
Posts: 17,972
Received 241 Likes on 172 Posts
Re: Consequences of Adam and Eve, the Flood, et. al.

Originally Posted by Navinabob View Post
Here it is in a nutshell. Either the bible is right, or ever thing we understand about the universe is wrong.
well, since the bible is always right, clearly the universe is a big fraud.
Old 07-31-13, 08:36 PM
  #162  
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,490
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Re: Consequences of Adam and Eve, the Flood, et. al.

Originally Posted by Draven View Post
I love how you attempt to use logic here, but completely disregard that it is fundamentally impossible for an Ark to exist at all.
Again, we can't be sure of that, because we don't know every detail of 4,000-year-old Israeli construction methods.

Since murder is a legal term, no. But the Creator of all life can certainly kill anyone He wants to, and does it all the time.
That doesn't make it wrong, though.

...a master dog? I just...does this come from your head and your head alone?
As i said, I couldn't think of a better term. The idea is that every variant of dog which now exists originally descended from the dogs on the Ark.

If there was a global flood (and there wasn't)...now you are saying it somehow caused land masses from a hill to Mt. Everest to somehow rise up? Why?
Tectonic shifting and huge water pressure on land masses could easily cause such things.

Why does God get to choose what's right and wrong? Who told God the difference?
No one. God is completely eternal in both directions, accountable to nothing beyond His own promises. He created the moral standard; our choice is whether to obey it.

Again...your science is sketchy.
How so?

So an omnipotent being can change his mind? He knew he was going to lay down that law, so he let his subjects do sinful things until he decided to tell them it was wrong? So which is it...right or wrong?
Incest wasn't sinful at the beginning, because God hadn't declared it as such yet. The practice was necessary for humans to first populate the Earth, but at a certain point, it became moot. Many theorize it was because birth defects started appearing.

No, that's psychotic. It's like hiring a prostitute to seduce your husband, then acting like that's an okay thing to do.
Its more like acknowledging your spouse has the freedom to cheat, even though its completely wrong. If they love you more than themselves, they won't stray. Infidelity is one of the few Godly reasons for divorce.

Indifferent to those who are suffering and in need of help? Yep, sounds like your God to me.
My example wasn't indifferent. If you rushed toward someone about to jump off a cliff, its very likely you'd be too late. Even if you caught their hand afterwards, it would still be their choice whether to let go and fall again.
Old 07-31-13, 08:37 PM
  #163  
DVD Talk Hero
 
Josh-da-man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: The Bible Belt
Posts: 38,133
Received 1,228 Likes on 879 Posts
Re: Consequences of Adam and Eve, the Flood, et. al.

Originally Posted by Pharoh View Post
The reality is, there is scant evidence for the existence of a historical jesus. It all really rests on a few fragments dated years after the supposed events, a little textual analysis, the belief that there is no other possible explanation, and the writings of Paul, at least the ones he wrote. The last of which boils down, well why would he say he talked to somebody who didn't exist.
It's an interesting question.

Jesus wasn't a particularly significant or important figure during his lifetime. His crucifixion would have been a wholly unremarkable event; the Romans handed nailed troublemakers to crosses like we hand out speeding tickets.

During the period of Roman occupation of Israel/Palestine/The Holy Land, there was a certain degree of messianic fervor. The people were looking for a messiah. John the Baptist was a part of it, too.

The question then becomes was Jesus an actual person, or was Jesus a composite character created from the messianic movement? Or maybe there was a guy named Jesus who became a figurehead for the movement, and had all of the legends and stories attached to him over time.
Old 07-31-13, 08:39 PM
  #164  
DVD Talk God
 
kvrdave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Pacific NW
Posts: 86,190
Received 8 Likes on 5 Posts
Re: Consequences of Adam and Eve, the Flood, et. al.

Originally Posted by Pharoh View Post
Well, except for you know, evidence. And physics and chemistry and astronomy and math and all of those other pesky sciences.

The reality is, there is scant evidence for the existence of a historical jesus. It all really rests on a few fragments dated years after the supposed events, a little textual analysis, the belief that there is no other possible explanation, and the writings of Paul, at least the ones he wrote. The last of which boils down, well why would he say he talked to somebody who didn't exist.

I know there is a bit more to it than that, but to compare the doubting of an extraordinary claim that has almost zero evidence to disbelieving the moon landing is incredibly silly.
Do you realize that you could say the exact same thing about Julius Caesar? Seriously, look up the historicity of him. But I get it...when we talk about Jesus it is different. It is religious. It is about what we want to be real (on both sides) more so than actual scholarship. Then we get the scholarship to fit. No one doubts Caesar was real. I mean...look at all the alters and busts, and likenesses to him. Forget the fact that most everything we know was written decades later. Everyone was in on it, I'm sure.

What amazes me most is the idea of Jesus not being real because of the lack of extra biblical mentions of him. It seems that most of the people who use that line of thinking forget about the typical "cannot prove a negative" line of thinking. "Prove he existed, and everything you use doesn't actually constitute proof." Well tell me this. Even if the writings from him are decades later, why don't we hear anyone saying things like, "Damn, these dudes that use to be Jews have started talking about this Jesus guy, but no one remembers him. James claims to be his brothers, but no one can verify that with anyone. They say he rose from the dead, and while we think we would have heard about that, we certainly would have heard about him, wouldn't we?"

It's a fucking house of cards man. I'd love to see actual scholarship contrary to that. And remember, I'm a guy who believes that the lack of Jesus changes nothing about what I believe. No skin in the game. But it is the same thinking as people who believe the "Left Behind" shit. Came about in the 1800s, which is about the same time the idea that Jesus never existed. That fact is far more telling than anything to me. Again, people were not different in intellect back them. No one else thought to mention that they didn't think Jesus actually existed?

It is like listening to Christians who think Jesus was born on Dec. 25th. It is like all of history started about 100 years ago.
Old 07-31-13, 08:39 PM
  #165  
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,490
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Re: Consequences of Adam and Eve, the Flood, et. al.

Originally Posted by Th0r S1mpson View Post
Moviefan, most of the comments and questions here appear to be intended to mock you rather than to actually understand your beliefs, yet you have taken the time to address them any way. For that I commend you.
Thanks for the compliment.
Old 07-31-13, 09:01 PM
  #166  
DVD Talk Platinum Edition
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 3,633
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Re: Consequences of Adam and Eve, the Flood, et. al.

Originally Posted by dave-o View Post
Even my JW wife and her family believe the flood myth was a "localized" event...and they are JWs! When you "out fundie" the JWs, you have reached some rarified air indeed!

On a serious note, not every one has the ability to do in depth critical thinking and analysis. I'm not judging, as there are many people like this of all types (atheist, theist, etc.). For example, I'm pretty good with statistics. When I was taking my graduate statistics classes I could truly understand and visualize what was happening in the equations at a point far beyond most of my classmates...up until a point. At a certain point it was simply beyond my ability to grasp the equations in such an in-depth way. Others were never able to do so and some continued to grasp them. At that point I just focused on learning the gist of what the statistical analysis was doing and when to use it. It frustrated me, as I was used to truly getting it, but alas, I reached my upper limits. We all have upper limits, and they were not all created equally. The most important thing is to accurately realize where those upper limits are and to admit to them. It makes life a whole lot easier...


If I didn't already know everything moviefan2k4 is saying was total BS and goes against the results of centuries of scientific inquiry in numerous fields by millions of very intelligent people, I would still doubt his claims simply because I have never once seen him write "I was wrong" or "I don't know". People who have an answer to every question are usually making it up as they go along. Way too many people are either unaware or refuse to acknowledge and embrace their own ignorance. Objectively I am pretty smart I think, but I will freely admit I know very little about most things that can be known, and there are even more things that no one knows or which cannot be known. I am distrustful of anyone who can't say the same. Especially someone who willfully ignores what those who are actually knowledgeable about something have to say.

What Navinabob says is true - if so many people doing so many repeatable tests in so many different fields are all wrong, then it is impossible we are sitting here communicating on the internet.
Old 07-31-13, 09:39 PM
  #167  
Moderator
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: In mourning
Posts: 27,373
Received 155 Likes on 107 Posts
Re: Consequences of Adam and Eve, the Flood, et. al.

Originally Posted by kvrdave View Post
Do you realize that you could say the exact same thing about Julius Caesar? Seriously, look up the historicity of him. But I get it...when we talk about Jesus it is different. It is religious. It is about what we want to be real (on both sides) more so than actual scholarship. Then we get the scholarship to fit. No one doubts Caesar was real. I mean...look at all the alters and busts, and likenesses to him. Forget the fact that most everything we know was written decades later. Everyone was in on it, I'm sure.
Okay? You aren't being serious about the differences between verifying their existence, are you? Could it be that one matters a bit more than the other?

And you are again the one saying it has to be a conspiracy. It doesn't, and I don't believe it was. (Again, it wasn't until the time from when we actually have the gospels and the "church" needed to validate their authority and existence, which is what, the late 4th century and later?)

Originally Posted by kvrdave View Post
What amazes me most is the idea of Jesus not being real because of the lack of extra biblical mentions of him. It seems that most of the people who use that line of thinking forget about the typical "cannot prove a negative" line of thinking. "Prove he existed, and everything you use doesn't actually constitute proof." Well tell me this. Even if the writings from him are decades later, why don't we hear anyone saying things like, "Damn, these dudes that use to be Jews have started talking about this Jesus guy, but no one remembers him. James claims to be his brothers, but no one can verify that with anyone. They say he rose from the dead, and while we think we would have heard about that, we certainly would have heard about him, wouldn't we?"
But it isn't simply the lack of external sources. It is the social and religious trends in the greater Hellenistic world, it is textual analysis, it is the bible itself, and it is external sources, both what they don't say and what they do say. It appears you have a preconceived version of what the doubters say, even if it isn't what they are really saying.

And we don't hear sayings like, "damn, these dudes used to be Jews," perhaps because early Christianity found its little audience in the Hellenistic gentile world sympathetic to Second Temple Judaism.

Originally Posted by kvrdave View Post
It's a fucking house of cards man. I'd love to see actual scholarship contrary to that. And remember, I'm a guy who believes that the lack of Jesus changes nothing about what I believe. No skin in the game. But it is the same thinking as people who believe the "Left Behind" shit. Came about in the 1800s, which is about the same time the idea that Jesus never existed. That fact is far more telling than anything to me. Again, people were not different in intellect back them. No one else thought to mention that they didn't think Jesus actually existed?

It is like listening to Christians who think Jesus was born on Dec. 25th. It is like all of history started about 100 years ago.
I really don't know what to say if your biggest problem is that the idea came about in 1880, or that scholarship, availability of information, research capabilities, and knowledge hasn't increased, and will continue to increase, regardless of whether or not humans are inherently any smarter now.

By the way, Carrier's peer reviewed work will be out soon, so you will have some scholarship.
Old 07-31-13, 09:53 PM
  #168  
DVD Talk Legend
 
cungar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 22,833
Likes: 0
Received 9 Likes on 8 Posts
Re: Consequences of Adam and Eve, the Flood, et. al.

Originally Posted by Nausicaa View Post


If I didn't already know everything moviefan2k4 is saying was total BS and goes against the results of centuries of scientific inquiry in numerous fields by millions of very intelligent people, I would still doubt his claims simply because I have never once seen him write "I was wrong" or "I don't know". People who have an answer to every question are usually making it up as they go along. Way too many people are either unaware or refuse to acknowledge and embrace their own ignorance. Objectively I am pretty smart I think, but I will freely admit I know very little about most things that can be known, and there are even more things that no one knows or which cannot be known. I am distrustful of anyone who can't say the same. Especially someone who willfully ignores what those who are actually knowledgeable about something have to say.

What Navinabob says is true - if so many people doing so many repeatable tests in so many different fields are all wrong, then it is impossible we are sitting here communicating on the internet.
That's right, even great theologians and clerics have many questions about the bible. But a guy from Texas on DVD talk knows it all.
Old 07-31-13, 11:00 PM
  #169  
DVD Talk Ultimate Edition
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: West Coast of Canada
Posts: 4,432
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Re: Consequences of Adam and Eve, the Flood, et. al.

moviefan2k4 - some questions for you, if that's okay. What do you do for work? Do you have real world friends that you hang out and do things with? What kind of things do you like to do? Do you live alone, or with others? Have you seen different parts of the world, or even the US? If so, which? What do you hope to do in the future?

I'm just trying to get a sense of who you are. You seem very sure of the information you put forth and I'm curious what kind of life experience you have, is all. It provides good context.
Old 07-31-13, 11:05 PM
  #170  
DVD Talk Hero
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Rosemount, MN
Posts: 39,020
Received 682 Likes on 437 Posts
Re: Consequences of Adam and Eve, the Flood, et. al.

Originally Posted by cungar View Post
That's right, even great theologians and clerics have many questions about the bible. But a guy from Texas on DVD talk knows it all.
My father has his doctorate in ministry, has been preaching for 50+ years and can read Latin. Even he doesn't have the answers to biblical questions that moviefan2k4 does. Mostly because he's willing to admit that there isn't an answer to every question. Also he doesn't attempt to speak on subjects he knows nothing about. I wish others would do the same.
Old 07-31-13, 11:28 PM
  #171  
DVD Talk Limited Edition
 
Max Bottomtime's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Torrance, California
Posts: 5,561
Received 260 Likes on 149 Posts
Re: Consequences of Adam and Eve, the Flood, et. al.

Originally Posted by solipsta View Post
moviefan2k4 - some questions for you, if that's okay. What do you do for work? Do you have real world friends that you hang out and do things with? What kind of things do you like to do? Do you live alone, or with others? Have you seen different parts of the world, or even the US? If so, which? What do you hope to do in the future?

I'm just trying to get a sense of who you are. You seem very sure of the information you put forth and I'm curious what kind of life experience you have, is all. It provides good context.
<iframe width="480" height="360" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/rUCh_ScQjhU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
Old 07-31-13, 11:50 PM
  #172  
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: East of Ypsi
Posts: 8,901
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
Re: Consequences of Adam and Eve, the Flood, et. al.

Holy shit.
Old 08-01-13, 12:29 AM
  #173  
DVD Talk God
 
kvrdave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Pacific NW
Posts: 86,190
Received 8 Likes on 5 Posts
Re: Consequences of Adam and Eve, the Flood, et. al.

So that you know, I do truly enjoy this.

Originally Posted by Pharoh View Post
Okay? You aren't being serious about the differences between verifying their existence, are you? Could it be that one matters a bit more than the other?
Absolutely it could be. Could it not be for that very reason that there is motivation to try to mold things into a history where Jesus, the person, didn't even exist?

And you are again the one saying it has to be a conspiracy. It doesn't, and I don't believe it was. (Again, it wasn't until the time from when we actually have the gospels and the "church" needed to validate their authority and existence, which is what, the late 4th century and later?)
That's Dan Brown stuff. Makes for interesting fiction, but it doesn't hold up to scholarship. All the books were around (with the likely exception of Revelation) by the end of the first century, which is a lot different than the 4th. Even the most liberal views would have them no later than the 2nd century, and that is a minority view. The earliest papyrus fragments are from about 150 AD and no one thinks those are originals.

You aren't really saying that the books of the NT date to around the 4th century, are you? I've written a lot about that, and I suppose I could dig those up if you'd like, but I'll bet you've seen them.

But it isn't simply the lack of external sources. It is the social and religious trends in the greater Hellenistic world, it is textual analysis, it is the bible itself, and it is external sources, both what they don't say and what they do say. It appears you have a preconceived version of what the doubters say, even if it isn't what they are really saying.
If I sound that way it is because I've had this discussion before. It "stretches" the evidence far too much. It will take what is said and then stretches to find "what isn't said" to try to make a coherent point. It is what YEC do.

One of the things that really helped bring home the idea that YEC was really silly was the fact that I simply didn't see the Jews having the same debate. They have as much, or more, interest in the subject since it all stems from the OT. The Jews have/had as much or more interest in showing that Jesus never existed than any other group. And you simply do not see that discussion in history. That boggles the mind that if Jesus didn't exist, you don't see that written or discussed by Jews of the time. Blows me away.

And we don't hear sayings like, "damn, these dudes used to be Jews," perhaps because early Christianity found its little audience in the Hellenistic gentile world sympathetic to Second Temple Judaism.
This is more Dan Brown type of stuff. Christianity was founded by Jews. It was a pretty big debate. It wasn't until Paul came around that they actually started to spread to the Gentiles (as well as Peter on the day of Pentecost).

But, for shits and giggles, what is it about Christianity that you think Hellenistic Gentiles would be sympathetic towards? At least in the writings of the Bible, there didn't seem to be much sympathy, and Paul works his ass off to keep it out when it does try to creep into the church in Corinth, etc.

I really don't know what to say if your biggest problem is that the idea came about in 1880, or that scholarship, availability of information, research capabilities, and knowledge hasn't increased, and will continue to increase, regardless of whether or not humans are inherently any smarter now.
As I said, we do have the advantage of more people to work on it. But again, it wasn't like you didn't have people studying all of the books of the bible since it came into being. It makes me very suspicious. If something came out about George Washington, or any older king of England, or other historical person, and the bulk of the evidence was all evidence from silence when that theory comes about not decades after the life/death of that person, but hundreds of years, wouldn't you be a bit suspicious? Especially when there are people, and have been people, much greater in number, who have devoted their lives to scholarship on the subject....including so many that don't believe any of the claims or the religious aspects of it? That absolutely pushes credulity beyond what unbiased people should accept.

Take the evidence for the actual existence of Buddha. What evidence do you see that he existed? We're talking about 400 years before Jesus. We're talking less contemporaries actually writing about him, and not nearly as close to his life. Why is that not the subject of this same topic? Again, it stretches credulity. Find another historical figure from ancient times with more proof of their actual existence that would stand up to this same type of scrutiny of "evidence from silence."

By the way, Carrier's peer reviewed work will be out soon, so you will have some scholarship.
When crucified, will you see it as important as the crucifixion of Ehman? Or will suddenly the 1 out of 100 historians mean more than the other 99?

This is just another flavor of the month idea. And like all the others, we've gone over them in ancient threads before.
Old 08-01-13, 12:37 AM
  #174  
Moderator
 
Groucho's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
Posts: 71,383
Received 117 Likes on 79 Posts
Re: Consequences of Adam and Eve, the Flood, et. al.

Originally Posted by dvdjunkie32 View Post
How do you explain Jewish DNA found among Native Americans?
There's some folks in Salt Lake City who have an answer for you, but you aren't going to like it...
Old 08-01-13, 12:43 AM
  #175  
DVD Talk Hero
 
Why So Blu?'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 34,972
Received 645 Likes on 502 Posts
Re: Consequences of Adam and Eve, the Flood, et. al.

Damn, it feels good to be an Atheist.


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.