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French citizen could get one year in prison for politically incorrect statements

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French citizen could get one year in prison for politically incorrect statements

Old 07-02-13, 06:08 PM
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French citizen could get one year in prison for politically incorrect statements

This is ridiculous. People should not be jailed for making politically incorrect statements.

Also, Islam is a religion, not a race - so there's no way that her statements could have been racist.


http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe...255808880.html

French far-right leader stripped of immunity

Marine Le Pen loses legal immunity as EU Parliament deputy, exposing her to possible prosecution over racism charge.

02 Jul 2013

French far-right leader Marine Le Pen has been stripped of her European Parliament immunity and may now face charges of racism over comments she made comparing Muslims praying on streets to Nazi occupation during World War II.

Parliamentarians voted on Tuesday to ratify the decision, as recommended by a judicial committee, so that Le Pen, who leads the French National Front party, could defend herself against a charge of inciting racial hatred brought by French prosecutors in 2011.

Le Pen, who was present for the vote, said she stood behind her comments and looked forward to defending them in front of a judge.

"I'm going to defend myself ... and I'm absolutely convinced that the court will rule in my favour and protect my right to say to the French the truth about the situation, notably prayers in the streets but not only that," Le Pen said in an interview on French television.

If found guilty of inciting racial hatred, she would face a maximum penalty of one year in prison and $60,000 in fines.

In her speech, made in 2010 in Lyon and broadcast in France, Le Pen said that "more and more burkas" were being seen in France. "After that came prayers in the streets... I'm sorry, but some people are very fond of talking about the Second World War and about the occupation, so let's talk about occupation, because that is what is happening here... There are no tanks, no soldiers, but it is still an occupation, and it weighs on people."


Forthcoming elections

A trial in France would be a setback for the National Front as it seeks to beat the Socialist Party and mainstream centre-right UMP party in local and European Parliament elections next year.

Le Pen's anti-immigrant, anti-EU party is gaining support at the expense of President Francois Hollande's Socialists in a darkening economic context, as high and rising joblessness fuels the spread of her Euro-sceptic views.

First elected to the European Parliament in 2004, Le Pen won 18 percent of the vote in the first round of France's presidential election in 2012, the party's highest-ever score.

In 1997, her father Jean-Marie Le Pen, while sitting as an MEP, also had his immunity revoked after saying that Nazi gas chambers were a "detail" in the history of World War II. He was subsequently convicted and fined in a German court.
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Old 07-02-13, 06:11 PM
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Re: French citizen could get one year in prison for politically incorrect statements

It's Europe. Their contintent, their rules.
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Old 07-02-13, 07:03 PM
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Re: French citizen could get one year in prison for politically incorrect statements

Simply comparing someone or a group to the Nazis is "inciting racial hatred"? In cases like this it becomes apparent where the real racism, the real prejudging and selective handling of people based on their race and religion, is really coming from: The people who make these laws!

The existence of the law proves that inside the heads of the people who made it lives the thought that this whole generalized group is so fragile, so easily offended, and so prone to violence that we have to make a law that forbids offending them. How fucking paternalistic! They're basically saying Muslims are too retched to take care of themselves, too sensitive to handle criticism.

Then again Europe has always been a generally intollerant society so what should we expect?
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Old 07-03-13, 12:06 AM
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Re: French citizen could get one year in prison for politically incorrect statements

It's France. 'Nuff said.
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Old 07-03-13, 12:14 AM
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Re: French citizen could get one year in prison for politically incorrect statements

This will be America in thirty years. The Millennials and Post-Millennial generations are worshippers at the church of political correctness, at least in public arenas.
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Old 07-03-13, 06:26 AM
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Re: French citizen could get one year in prison for politically incorrect statements

Her father, Jean-Marie LePen, was basically a Klansman who got elected to parliament. Marnie LePen has been a new generation, media-savvy, racist and nativist who never quite uses the words that will get her in trouble, and manages to maintain deniability. So instead of talking about brown people, she talks about burkas.
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Old 07-03-13, 07:12 AM
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Re: French citizen could get one year in prison for politically incorrect statements

Maybe she'll be forced to bake a cake for them.
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Old 07-03-13, 07:43 AM
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Re: French citizen could get one year in prison for politically incorrect statements

I always hate when headlines are spun to make the worst case scenario seem like reality. The fact is, reading the story, that she COULD be charged and IF found guilty she COULD get a year in prison. That's a lot of coulds and ifs.

But I think we all can understand why France, historically, would be less forgiving of "hate speech" than the United States.
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Old 07-03-13, 09:02 AM
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Re: French citizen could get one year in prison for politically incorrect statements

Originally Posted by PhantomStranger View Post
This will be America in thirty years. The Millennials and Post-Millennial generations are worshippers at the church of political correctness, at least in public arenas.
What the hell are you talking about?
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Old 07-03-13, 09:04 AM
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Re: French citizen could get one year in prison for politically incorrect statements

Originally Posted by Supermallet View Post
It's France. 'Nuff said.
France... the Florida of Europe
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Old 07-03-13, 10:04 AM
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Re: French citizen could get one year in prison for politically incorrect statements

I think it's shocking that other countries dare to have different values and principles than the US. This must be fixed immediately.
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Old 07-03-13, 10:12 AM
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Re: French citizen could get one year in prison for politically incorrect statements

Originally Posted by eXcentris View Post
I think it's shocking that other countries dare to have different values and principles than the US. This must be fixed immediately.
Says the Canadien who is quick to criticize US values and principles.

No one (so far) has really proposed fixing it, but by OUR standards, it IS shocking. Why it is nearly as bad as the way Paula Deen is being demonized.
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Old 07-03-13, 11:39 AM
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Re: French citizen could get one year in prison for politically incorrect statements

Yeah, the Le Pens have had quite a reversal of ideology---this was daddy's early take:

"We must tell the Algerians that it is not the case that they need France, but that France needs them. They are not a burden, and if they are for now, they will on the contrary be a dynamic part as well as the young blood of the French nation into which we will have integrated them. I claim that in the Muslim religion there is nothing, in the moral point of view, that would be incompatible with making a believing or practicing Muslim a full French citizen. Very much on the contrary, its basic principles are the same as for Christianity, which is the basis of Western civilization. On the other hand, I do not believe that there exists an Algerian race, any more than there exists a French race I conclude: let us offer to Algerian Muslims entrance and integration in a dynamic France. Instead of telling them as we do now: "you are very expensive, you are a burden", let us tell them: "we need you, you are the youth of the nation." -Jean Marie Le Pen, 1958

Yeah, that didn't work out exactly as planned.

But anyways, IMO, European leaders are terrified of a situation like what happened at the start of the civil war in Lebanaon, where you had smaller tit-for-tat Muslim/Christian violence that ultimately escalated into a brutal civil war, and society dividing along sectarian lines with armed militias.

So far, we haven't really seen that. There have been major acts of violence--the 7/7 London bombings, Madrid train bombings, Danish cartoon riots and murders, large-scale rioting in several countries, and lots of smaller jihad attacks and plots---and recently the Lee Rigby beheading in England. We did have a major act of violence from the native population, with the Anders Brevik massacre in Norway, although that was directed at other Norwegians and not Muslims. But so far, these acts haven't been specifically connected, as far as one being a direct retaliation for another. I think the authorities are aware that if you have a major jihad attack from Muslims, and then you have an immediate, large-scale violent response from violent native groups---like some mosque bombing that kills dozens of people--then all bets are off.

So, IMO, the authorities are going to do what they can to keep a lid on the pressure cooker. They're going to either arrest people who say "offensive" things, and if not incarcerate them, at least force them to self-censor out of fear and legal costs. And realistically, it's a LOT easier for the authorities to arrest a Geert Wilders, a Lars Hedegaard, a Suzanne Winter, or a Marine Le Pen than it is to arrest these guys:

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/UatySUUOJYM" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
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Old 07-03-13, 12:01 PM
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Re: French citizen could get one year in prison for politically incorrect statements

This has little to do with some conspiracy to appease Muslims and everything to do with political wrangling/campaigning for the upcoming election. The FN has used this tactic several times before.
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Old 07-03-13, 12:14 PM
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Re: French citizen could get one year in prison for politically incorrect statements

Originally Posted by nemein View Post
France... the Florida of Europe
Now you're just insulting Florida.

We can do that fine on our own!
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Old 07-04-13, 01:55 AM
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Re: French citizen could get one year in prison for politically incorrect statements

It seems incredibly un-democratic and very lazy (well, we are talking France, so I get that part) to put people on trial for saying something.
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Old 07-04-13, 02:21 AM
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Re: French citizen could get one year in prison for politically incorrect statements

Just another reason to hate France.

I guess freedom of speech - especially unpopular speech or politically INcorrect speech - isn't valued very highly in France.

If someone says something stupid, insulting, and insensitive then they should be held up to public ridicule, not potential prison time.
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Old 07-04-13, 03:07 AM
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Re: French citizen could get one year in prison for politically incorrect statements

IIRC, those laws apply to all hate speech, not just for hate speech against Muslims. I'm not saying that this makes the laws okay, but the penalty would be the same if the speech were about Jews, gays, blacks, etc. I don't see this as evidence of a conspiracy to mollify Muslims.
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Old 07-04-13, 05:38 AM
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Re: French citizen could get one year in prison for politically incorrect statements

Originally Posted by Supermallet View Post
IIRC, those laws apply to all hate speech, not just for hate speech against Muslims. I'm not saying that this makes the laws okay, but the penalty would be the same if the speech were about Jews, gays, blacks, etc. I don't see this as evidence of a conspiracy to mollify Muslims.
So, if we were in France, we'd get in trouble for saying what we think about French people and the stupid laws they let their elected government pass.
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Old 07-04-13, 07:52 AM
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Re: French citizen could get one year in prison for politically incorrect statements

Originally Posted by Supermallet View Post
IIRC, those laws apply to all hate speech, not just for hate speech against Muslims. I'm not saying that this makes the laws okay, but the penalty would be the same if the speech were about Jews, gays, blacks, etc. I don't see this as evidence of a conspiracy to mollify Muslims.
The idea that hate speech laws will be applied equally (or were even meant to be) is, IMO, naive. I posted a handful of extremely high profile cases of hate speech cases involving negative comments about Islam---can you post the cases involving negative statements made about Christianity? Then we could compare them.

Bu really, it's not any big "conspiracy". It was just the arrest of a teenager that set off the nationwide riots in France. And if authorities say "We're going to ban newspapers from publishing cartoons that insult Muhammad, because it will save lives and prevent riots"---they wouldn't be lying. Their position would be very rational, depending on if you value public cohesion over free speech. It most likely WOULD save lives. That's the reality of Europe today, and to imagine that authorities aren't cognizant of that reality is just silly.

Last edited by Ky-Fi; 07-04-13 at 07:57 AM.
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Old 07-04-13, 08:51 AM
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Re: French citizen could get one year in prison for politically incorrect statements

I wouldn't worry about Europe. There is alot of flash, smoke and mirrors. If shit keeps going there will be a tipping point and the bloodbath will be reversed. These are small groups in these countries trying to turn them to shit so they feel at home. The majority of people in Europe will not tolerate losing their own country to a bunch of retrograde idiots.
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Old 07-04-13, 09:55 AM
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Re: French citizen could get one year in prison for politically incorrect statements

Originally Posted by arminius View Post
I wouldn't worry about Europe. There is alot of flash, smoke and mirrors. If shit keeps going there will be a tipping point and the bloodbath will be reversed. These are small groups in these countries trying to turn them to shit so they feel at home. The majority of people in Europe will not tolerate losing their own country to a bunch of retrograde idiots.
You may very well be right---impossible to say with certainty, IMO. I think Pipes laid out the possible outcomes very logically a few years ago, and I don't think things have become much more clear since then:

http://www.danielpipes.org/4323/europes-stark-options
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