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View Poll Results: Assuming it's between consenting adults, which types of marriage should be legal?
Marriage legal for gays, incestuous couples & polygamists
44.00%
Marriage legal for gays & incestuous couples, illegal for polygamists
2.67%
Marriage legal for gays & polygamists, illegal for incestuous couples
16.00%
Marriage legal for incestuous couples & polygamists, illegal for gays
1.33%
Marriage legal for gays, illegal for incestuous couples & polygamists
21.33%
Marriage legal for incestuous couples, illegal for gays & polygamists
1.33%
Marriage legal for polygamists, illegal for gays & incestuous couples
1.33%
Marriage illegal for gays, incestuous couples & polygamists
4.00%
Marriage legal for twickoff
8.00%
Voters: 75. You may not vote on this poll

Polling Views on Non-Traditional Marriages

Old 07-06-13, 01:51 AM
  #526  
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Re: Polling Views on Non-Traditional Marriages

Originally Posted by dvdjunkie32 View Post
The condescending rhetoric is nothing more than tactics of desperation. If you truly believed that I am so extremly ignorant and stupid then why waste your time responding to me? That's like trying to teach advanced physics to a retarded person and then berating them for not understanding, continuing to teach it, and berating some more.
It is nothing like that. A retarded person would be mentally incapable of understanding physics. You are simply unwilling to accept anything that disagrees with your worldview, and have constructed an elaborate fantasy world where Christians in the United States are persecuted by the evil atheist liberals so you never have to acknowledge or consider any other viewpoint.

A better analogy would be a man believes he is a dragon, and plans to torch a whole group of innocent people to prove he can breathe fire, and other, more reasonable people trying to convince him that he is misguided and will do a lot of harm if he continues to persist in this fashion.
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Old 07-06-13, 11:04 AM
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Re: Polling Views on Non-Traditional Marriages

Originally Posted by dvdjunkie32 View Post
Thank you. So I will address your points:

1. Yes, wills cost money, but we're not talking about a something that is a huge expense. It can usually be done for less than $500 and even for free if you are low income. There's really no good argument for being without a will. Settling an inheritance without a will can result in much more expensive lawyer fees and cause permanent damage to relationships.

Also, in some states, a couple must be married for a certain number of years before they can receive 100% inheritance.


2. A will can be contested, but this is very hard to prove without strong evidence. A decent lawyer would prevent such pitfalls when drawing up the will. It varies from state to state.


3. I'm willing to give you this one. I don't know enough about inheritance taxes to challenge your comment.
You accuse others of condescension and that's your answer? "I, dvdjunkie, don't think gay people will have to spend too much money to get themselves back to a position where they are as close to straight couples as the law allows, so I'm OK with denying them their rights."

Fun fact: under Florida's Constitution, a will cannot bequeath a homestead to anybody other than a surviving spouse or a minor child should such a person be alive at the time the decedent dies. In other words, if Jim has a child, then realizes he's gay and enters into a long-term relationship with Bill, and Jim buys a house, but dies while his child is still a minor, he cannot leave the house to Bill. Even with a will.

Last edited by JasonF; 07-06-13 at 01:23 PM.
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Old 07-06-13, 01:04 PM
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Re: Polling Views on Non-Traditional Marriages

Well, that just shows what a big fat atheist you are!
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Old 07-06-13, 02:28 PM
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Re: Polling Views on Non-Traditional Marriages

Originally Posted by JasonF View Post
You accuse others of condescension and that's your answer? "I, dvdjunkie, don't think gay people will have to spend too much money to get themselves back to a position where they are as close to straight couples as the law allows, so I'm OK with denying them their rights."

Fun fact: under Florida's Constitution, a will cannot bequeath a homestead to anybody other than a surviving spouse or a minor child should such a person be alive at the time the decedent dies. In other words, if Jim has a child, then realizes he's gay and enters into a long-term relationship with Bill, and Jim buys a house, but dies while his child is still a minor, he cannot leave the house to Bill. Even with a will.
I'll give you this one, as I know nothing about wills, or law, or gay people, or empathy, and I'm too lazy to verify it for myself...but really, all you did was speak in generalities. What SPECIFIC people has this happened to, huh? And unless you witnessed it firsthand, I won't accept any evidence.
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Old 07-06-13, 03:41 PM
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Re: Polling Views on Non-Traditional Marriages

Haven't kept up with the whole thread, but I have a sincere question:

Is my tolerance ok, or is that not enough?

I'm a good coworker, neighbor, fellow citizen w/ the gay identifying people (and couples) I know. But I will never affirm or most likely attend a homosexual wedding. Doesn't mean I act rude, never used any derogatory language (even in school growing up, when *** was the 2nd most popular f-word). In fact I make it a habit to not volunteer my opinions unless asked.

I don't see how this is any different than everyone's disagreements over other issues, and everyone seems to get along just fine. (for the most part)
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Old 07-06-13, 03:45 PM
  #531  
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Re: Polling Views on Non-Traditional Marriages

Originally Posted by Artman View Post
Haven't kept up with the whole thread, but I have a sincere question:

Is my tolerance ok, or is that not enough?

I'm a good coworker, neighbor, fellow citizen w/ the gay identifying people (and couples) I know. But I will never affirm or most likely attend a homosexual wedding. Doesn't mean I act rude, never used any derogatory language (even in school growing up, when *** was the 2nd most popular f-word). In fact I make it a habit to not volunteer my opinions unless asked.

I don't see how this is any different than everyone's disagreements over other issues, and everyone seems to get along just fine. (for the most part)
I would think that is fair. You disapprove of their lifestyle and won't want to celebrate their marriage or approve of it, there is nothing wrong with holding that view. Not everyone is going to like or approve of everyone else. I think that where I, and probably most gay people, have an issue is when someone actively campaigns against treating them fairly and equally and seeks to keep relegating them to second class citizens. The push for marriage equity is, to me, seeking to protect our relationships and ensure the same benefits and protections afforded to those already married that often take them for granted.

Last edited by Canis Firebrand; 07-06-13 at 10:55 PM.
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Old 07-06-13, 03:52 PM
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Re: Polling Views on Non-Traditional Marriages

Originally Posted by Artman View Post
Haven't kept up with the whole thread, but I have a sincere question:

Is my tolerance ok, or is that not enough?

I'm a good coworker, neighbor, fellow citizen w/ the gay identifying people (and couples) I know. But I will never affirm or most likely attend a homosexual wedding. Doesn't mean I act rude, never used any derogatory language (even in school growing up, when *** was the 2nd most popular f-word). In fact I make it a habit to not volunteer my opinions unless asked.

I don't see how this is any different than everyone's disagreements over other issues, and everyone seems to get along just fine. (for the most part)
I think it's really sad and pathetic that you would refuse to attend the wedding of a gay friend, but hey, it's your life. Have you told any gay friends about this moral stance? Are they still your friends?
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Old 07-06-13, 03:56 PM
  #533  
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Re: Polling Views on Non-Traditional Marriages

Originally Posted by Canis Firebrand View Post
I think that where I, and probably most gay people, have an issue is when someone actively campaigns against treating them fairly and equally and seeks to keep relegating them to second class citizens.
Regarding my voting history on it, I've leaned left... supported everything through "everything but marriage." So, no denial of benefits... the last WA vote was mostly a theological one imo. Still, even if I had voted differently...I don't think that qualifies as hate. An important distinction to remember is that our disagreement isn't based on an individual, rather an action/relationship between people.

I disagree with Churches who advocate for political issues (both right and left) and I've been fortunate to attend non-denominational ones over the years that make a point not to. We pray for our leaders and communities with no cynicism or strings attached.
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Old 07-06-13, 04:03 PM
  #534  
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Re: Polling Views on Non-Traditional Marriages

Originally Posted by Tracer Bullet View Post
I think it's really sad and pathetic that you would refuse to attend the wedding of a gay friend, but hey, it's your life. Have you told any gay friends about this moral stance? Are they still your friends?
I only have acquaintances (coworkers, etc) and a cousin I'm not close with. I understand and completely accept your opinion - would that effect your behavior towards me? Am I still invited to the bbq's?
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Old 07-06-13, 04:06 PM
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Re: Polling Views on Non-Traditional Marriages

Originally Posted by Artman View Post
Regarding my voting history on it, I've leaned left... supported everything through "everything but marriage." So, no denial of benefits... the last WA vote was mostly a theological one imo. Still, even if I had voted differently...I don't think that qualifies as hate. An important distinction to remember is that our disagreement isn't based on an individual, rather an action/relationship between people.

I disagree with Churches who advocate for political issues (both right and left) and I've been fortunate to attend non-denominational ones over the years that make a point not to. We pray for our leaders and communities with no cynicism or strings attached.
I think I see where you are coming from/getting at. I don't agree with the whole "hate the sin/love the person" approach. As an experiment, I assume you are married. Please forgive me if you are not. Pretend that the relationship/marriage that you and your wife have is not the norm and people are actively against it calling it an abomination, unworthy of being treated equally, etc. Would you be happy/content with being treated that way. Being told that you can't have marriage, but here's this equal designation in all but name. And then have people hold the view that "Oh, you're not really married." And treat your relationship as sub-standard. Would you not do everything in your power to change that and strive to be treated the same as everyone else and gain all of those inherent protections that are given automatically when two people are married?

As we've seen in the past, separate but equal is a nice ideal that makes people believe they are treating other equally when they are infact not.

**EDIT**

I posted a couple of videos that kind of explain where I'm coming from and trying to highlight. They are a few pages back. I can link to the posts if you can't find them.. One is a video that goes more into "what if heterosexual relationships were not the norm?" and the other gets into why the word marriage and its protections are important for same-sex relationships.

Last edited by Canis Firebrand; 07-06-13 at 04:16 PM.
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Old 07-06-13, 05:19 PM
  #536  
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Re: Polling Views on Non-Traditional Marriages

Originally Posted by Canis Firebrand View Post
I think I see where you are coming from/getting at. I don't agree with the whole "hate the sin/love the person" approach.
Well, that is where I'm coming from. I believe people can have disagreements but still treat each other with love and common courtesy - happens every day.

I agree with you on the practical benefits, which is why i supported them. The videos seemed to be about that and violent/hate crime, which is of course unacceptable. You do realize there is the ability to disagree without resorting to those kinds of actions I hope?

See, even when/if all the laws/definitions are the same - that doesn't (and will not) change my views. Because my highest authority is not the government. If anything, it will strengthen and reinforce my principles.
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Old 07-06-13, 05:53 PM
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Re: Polling Views on Non-Traditional Marriages

Originally Posted by Artman View Post
Regarding my voting history on it, I've leaned left... supported everything through "everything but marriage." So, no denial of benefits... the last WA vote was mostly a theological one imo. Still, even if I had voted differently...I don't think that qualifies as hate. An important distinction to remember is that our disagreement isn't based on an individual, rather an action/relationship between people.

I disagree with Churches who advocate for political issues (both right and left) and I've been fortunate to attend non-denominational ones over the years that make a point not to. We pray for our leaders and communities with no cynicism or strings attached.
That's just not true though. I see that as a rationalization people tell themselves so they don't have to feel bad about their discriminatory beliefs. But that is because I see this issue as no different than being against interracial marriage. The same rationalization was used then as well.

To answer your question, I'd view you the same way I would view someone who is against interracial marriage, but in every other way seems to be a compassionate, caring, and decent person. I would most likely keep a respectful distance, as I'd always know that even if you are a good person at heart, your actions (ie vote) and more likely your inactions are directly hurting many people that I care very much about (and the millions that I don't even know). Honestly, you are the type of person that I struggle with the most, because I imagine that other than this one issue, we'd probably get along great, and like you I really do try and be tolerant of other people's beliefs. But just like I couldn't be close to someone who is antisemitic, or racist (and I'm not saying it is exactly the same, those are just the best examples that I can compare it to when thinking about how I'd feel about being friends with you), I'd probably make an effort to keep my distance.

I would however have zero problem interacting with you on this topic. You have always been very respectful and if I'm honest, I would hope that our interactions might have a positive impact on both of us.
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Old 07-06-13, 06:07 PM
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Re: Polling Views on Non-Traditional Marriages

"I don't hate ANYONE. I just want to make their lives as miserable as possible until they see things my way."
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Old 07-06-13, 06:15 PM
  #539  
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Re: Polling Views on Non-Traditional Marriages

Originally Posted by Artman View Post

I disagree with Churches who advocate for political issues (both right and left) and I've been fortunate to attend non-denominational ones over the years that make a point not to. We pray for our leaders and communities with no cynicism or strings attached.
For the most part, I agree. Lewis wrote something about the dangers of people who want to use Christianity to push a political agenda, instead of looking at Christianity itself--which, IMO, is inherently neither left nor right---or is both, depending on your perspective.
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Old 07-06-13, 06:22 PM
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Re: Polling Views on Non-Traditional Marriages

Originally Posted by Artman View Post
Haven't kept up with the whole thread, but I have a sincere question:

Is my tolerance ok, or is that not enough?

I'm a good coworker, neighbor, fellow citizen w/ the gay identifying people (and couples) I know. But I will never affirm or most likely attend a homosexual wedding. Doesn't mean I act rude, never used any derogatory language (even in school growing up, when *** was the 2nd most popular f-word). In fact I make it a habit to not volunteer my opinions unless asked.

I don't see how this is any different than everyone's disagreements over other issues, and everyone seems to get along just fine. (for the most part)
Your tolerance is not ok. Only genuine acceptance would be. It is foolish of you to seek approval from people who will not accept anything less than your full acceptance of homosexual marriage that is on par with heterosexual marriage.
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Old 07-06-13, 06:43 PM
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Re: Polling Views on Non-Traditional Marriages

Originally Posted by sracer View Post
Your tolerance is not ok. Only genuine acceptance would be. It is foolish of you to seek approval from people who will not accept anything less than your full acceptance of homosexual marriage that is on par with heterosexual marriage.
Yes. When it comes to issues of equality, this is generally true. I certainly wouldn't want to be too close to someone who "tolerated" my Jewish ancestry.
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Old 07-06-13, 08:25 PM
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Re: Polling Views on Non-Traditional Marriages

Originally Posted by Artman View Post
Well, that is where I'm coming from. I believe people can have disagreements but still treat each other with love and common courtesy - happens every day.
True. People can disagree and still treat each other with common courtesy. I don't doubt that is possible.

I agree with you on the practical benefits, which is why i supported them. The videos seemed to be about that and violent/hate crime, which is of course unacceptable. You do realize there is the ability to disagree without resorting to those kinds of actions I hope?
Granted, the first video was an extreme situation, it is something that many gay and lesbian people go through every day. Many times as a result of peoples religious convictions. My hope, in posting that video, was to give people opposed to same-sex marriage and equality a glimpse of the kinds of things that gay and lesbians go through in their life. And an example if heterosexual marriage were not the common one and to show why marriage equity is so important to us.

See, even when/if all the laws/definitions are the same - that doesn't (and will not) change my views. Because my highest authority is not the government. If anything, it will strengthen and reinforce my principles.
That is great, and everyone should be free to believe as they wish. Again, where gay and lesbians have issues is that many want the laws of this country to be based on their bible which of course seeks to deny equity and those protections needed for our marriages.

Hopefully I'm making sense in my postings.

Last edited by Canis Firebrand; 07-06-13 at 08:47 PM.
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Old 07-06-13, 08:35 PM
  #543  
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Re: Polling Views on Non-Traditional Marriages

Originally Posted by sracer View Post
Your tolerance is not ok. Only genuine acceptance would be. It is foolish of you to seek approval from people who will not accept anything less than your full acceptance of homosexual marriage that is on par with heterosexual marriage.
When did they hire you as their spokesman?
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Old 07-06-13, 10:46 PM
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Re: Polling Views on Non-Traditional Marriages

Originally Posted by Tracer Bullet View Post
I think it's really sad and pathetic that you would refuse to attend the wedding of a gay friend, but hey, it's your life. Have you told any gay friends about this moral stance? Are they still your friends?


Originally Posted by Artman View Post
I only have acquaintances (coworkers, etc) and a cousin I'm not close with. I understand and completely accept your opinion - would that effect your behavior towards me? Am I still invited to the bbq's?
Why the hell would someone invite you to their bbq if you refused to attend their wedding? Any person with an ounce of backbone in that situation would tell you right where to stick that pork.

If anything, your version of intolerance is more insidious than the outright nastiness displayed by some others. Couching bigotry in polite words doesn't make it any less wrong or evil. It just allows you to feel better about yourself and dodge a lot of the criticism. Sorry to be blunt.
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Old 07-07-13, 12:37 AM
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Re: Polling Views on Non-Traditional Marriages

Originally Posted by dave-o View Post
That's just not true though. I see that as a rationalization people tell themselves so they don't have to feel bad about their discriminatory beliefs. But that is because I see this issue as no different than being against interracial marriage. The same rationalization was used then as well.

To answer your question, I'd view you the same way I would view someone who is against interracial marriage, but in every other way seems to be a compassionate, caring, and decent person. I would most likely keep a respectful distance, as I'd always know that even if you are a good person at heart, your actions (ie vote) and more likely your inactions are directly hurting many people that I care very much about (and the millions that I don't even know). Honestly, you are the type of person that I struggle with the most, because I imagine that other than this one issue, we'd probably get along great, and like you I really do try and be tolerant of other people's beliefs. But just like I couldn't be close to someone who is antisemitic, or racist (and I'm not saying it is exactly the same, those are just the best examples that I can compare it to when thinking about how I'd feel about being friends with you), I'd probably make an effort to keep my distance.

I would however have zero problem interacting with you on this topic. You have always been very respectful and if I'm honest, I would hope that our interactions might have a positive impact on both of us.
So apparently you are only capable of showing respect if the person changes their morals to agree with you 100% of the time.
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Old 07-07-13, 01:06 AM
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Re: Polling Views on Non-Traditional Marriages

Originally Posted by dvdjunkie32 View Post
So apparently you are only capable of showing respect if the person changes their morals to agree with you 100% of the time.
Yes. That is exactly what I said.

Now I'm convinced you're just a troll. No one can be that bad at reading comprehension.
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Old 07-07-13, 01:16 AM
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Re: Polling Views on Non-Traditional Marriages

Originally Posted by dvdjunkie32 View Post
And the dustbins of history show that societies which fully embrace homosexuality tend to be obliterated. Sin breeds destruction and evil men rarely die happy.
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Old 07-07-13, 01:25 AM
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Re: Polling Views on Non-Traditional Marriages

^ Still waiting for some examples of societies that were destroyed shortly after embracing homosexuality.
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Old 07-07-13, 03:37 AM
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Re: Polling Views on Non-Traditional Marriages

Originally Posted by Sean O'Hara View Post
^ Still waiting for some examples of societies that were destroyed shortly after embracing homosexuality.
1) Sodom
2) Gomorrah
3) The Death Star
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Old 07-07-13, 08:16 AM
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Re: Polling Views on Non-Traditional Marriages

Originally Posted by sracer View Post
Your tolerance is not ok. Only genuine acceptance would be. It is foolish of you to seek approval from people who will not accept anything less than your full acceptance of homosexual marriage that is on par with heterosexual marriage.
You don't have to accept it. You just have to stop actively trying to prevent it with laws and discriminatory practices. Unfortunately, some Christians take it upon themselves to keep others from doing things they disapprove of, even when those things have nothing to do with the Christians themselves.

And it IS on par with heterosexual marriage. It's two people getting married. Just because the parts don't connect in the way a mythical man in the sky approves of doesn't mean they aren't the same thing.
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