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View Poll Results: Assuming it's between consenting adults, which types of marriage should be legal?
Marriage legal for gays, incestuous couples & polygamists
44.00%
Marriage legal for gays & incestuous couples, illegal for polygamists
2.67%
Marriage legal for gays & polygamists, illegal for incestuous couples
16.00%
Marriage legal for incestuous couples & polygamists, illegal for gays
1.33%
Marriage legal for gays, illegal for incestuous couples & polygamists
21.33%
Marriage legal for incestuous couples, illegal for gays & polygamists
1.33%
Marriage legal for polygamists, illegal for gays & incestuous couples
1.33%
Marriage illegal for gays, incestuous couples & polygamists
4.00%
Marriage legal for twickoff
8.00%
Voters: 75. You may not vote on this poll

Polling Views on Non-Traditional Marriages

Old 07-05-13, 08:09 AM
  #476  
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Re: Polling Views on Non-Traditional Marriages

Originally Posted by RoyalTea View Post
Interesting. He showed sinners love. I'll bet He would be very upset to learn that you do not.

BTW - I'm straight. You do realize that, don't you? You're not committing high acts of Jesus-approved messageboardery to convince a straight man not to have sex with other men, you're trying to convince a straight man that I need to stop treating sinners with compassion.
Apparently you seem to think it's impossible to show kindness and compassion to a gay person without fully embracing their lifestyle. If a gay neighbor needed my help, I would be glad to lend a hand.
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Old 07-05-13, 08:14 AM
  #477  
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Re: Polling Views on Non-Traditional Marriages

Originally Posted by Supermallet View Post
It must be so difficult for you to be forced to read posts by someone who disagrees with you. What terrible hardship! Jesus upon the cross must have felt only a tiny portion of the suffering you shoulder.
As a fundamentalist Christian, I have to agree with this sarcasm 100%. Christians, especially in America, need to knock it off with the "I'm so persecuted" attitude. Read and comprehend your Bibles more and you should thank God that you don't really have to give up much of anything for your faith.

Okay, can we get off the whole being gay isn't a choice thing? First, the fundies won't ever concede that sexual orientation is innate (after all, they vividly remember the day that they were given a choice between being straight and being gay, and chose to be straight in order to honor god despite all the benefits of being gay). Second, and far more importantly, in this country we protect from discrimination in several different areas, some of which are innate, but some aren't. For example: religion. So it doesn't matter if being gay is a choice or not, because we don't only protect innate traits from discrimination.

So if people really wanted to base this on choice, then we should drop religious protections as well. Then it won't be discrimination when we force people to be Muslim against their will!
I think it is pretty clear to most people who interact with gay people or even think about the broader idea of attraction and preferences that same sex attraction is most likely innate. That fact doesn't really impact the idea that sex outside of marriage between a man and a woman is sinful to Bible believing Christians. We believe that all people are born with a tendency towards sinful behavior. I defiantly can’t speak for dvdjunkie32, but my opinion on the sinfulness of acts wouldn’t change at all if we found the “gay” gene tomorrow any more than if we found a “sex addict” gene. Everyone is a sinner and needs God’s forgiveness. That said, we should be loving and compassionate towards everyone. Christians would do well to think on how sinful we are and the depths of God’s forgiveness towards us and pour out a measure of that compassion towards other people.
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Old 07-05-13, 08:35 AM
  #478  
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Re: Polling Views on Non-Traditional Marriages

Jesus weeps for this thread.
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Old 07-05-13, 08:42 AM
  #479  
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Re: Polling Views on Non-Traditional Marriages

"He (or she) who is without sin cast the first stone."

this is what we all (myself included) need to do a better job of.
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Old 07-05-13, 09:19 AM
  #480  
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Re: Polling Views on Non-Traditional Marriages

Or maybe throw the stones more accurately.
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Old 07-05-13, 09:57 AM
  #481  
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Re: Polling Views on Non-Traditional Marriages

Originally Posted by Bacon View Post
"He (or she) who is without sin cast the first stone."

this is what we all (myself included) need to do a better job of.
Simple quotations from The Bible are often misleading. Such is the case with that one.
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Old 07-05-13, 10:02 AM
  #482  
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Re: Polling Views on Non-Traditional Marriages

LOZ IM GEYNNNNNN!!!



Trying to reason with people on the losing side of history can be so damn ponderous...
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Old 07-05-13, 10:03 AM
  #483  
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Re: Polling Views on Non-Traditional Marriages

Originally Posted by dvdjunkie32 View Post
I'm no legal expert, but I would think these issues could be easily resolved by naming the partner as a beneficiary on a will or life insurance. This should override family's claims.

As for hospital visitation, I would think you could draw up a legal document giving visitation rights to your partner, have it signed and notarized. I can't imagine a hospital admin would be willing to risk a lawsuit and keep the partner from visiting.

But of course that's not good enough. You want to rewrite society and demand that everyone accept their lifestyle as perfectly natural and sinless.
No, it's not good enough. Know why? Because crazy-fuck rightwing Christians will sue to override powers of attorney and wills. Hospital admins actually do refuse to allow partners to visit. States deny benefits to partners even with civil unions. Don't blame gays for forcing society to accept gay marriage when your side's put them in a position where that's the only way for them to get equality.
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Old 07-05-13, 10:10 AM
  #484  
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Re: Polling Views on Non-Traditional Marriages

Originally Posted by dvdjunkie32 View Post
If a gay neighbor needed my help, I would be glad to lend a hand.
You sure you're not gay too?
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Old 07-05-13, 10:16 AM
  #485  
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Re: Polling Views on Non-Traditional Marriages

Originally Posted by dvdjunkie32 View Post
I'm no legal expert
It shows.

But of course that's not good enough.
True. For gay couples, "Spend lots of money on lawyers just so you can get some of the rights straight couples automatically get" isn't good enough.
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Old 07-05-13, 10:31 AM
  #486  
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Re: Polling Views on Non-Traditional Marriages

Originally Posted by Sean O'Hara View Post
No, it's not good enough. Know why? Because crazy-fuck rightwing Christians will sue to override powers of attorney and wills. Hospital admins actually do refuse to allow partners to visit. States deny benefits to partners even with civil unions. Don't blame gays for forcing society to accept gay marriage when your side's put them in a position where that's the only way for them to get equality.
It's funny how he knows every single instance of a time a Christian business was forced to give service to people they dislike, but has no clue of the far more numerous cases of gay people being kept from seeing their partners in hospitals, not being allowed to make decisions on life support issues, being cut out of wills, and generally being treated like subhumans by the families of their partners.

It's almost like he's going through life with blinders on.
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Old 07-05-13, 10:37 AM
  #487  
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Re: Polling Views on Non-Traditional Marriages

Originally Posted by Sean O'Hara View Post
No, it's not good enough. Know why? Because crazy-fuck rightwing Christians will sue to override powers of attorney and wills. Hospital admins actually do refuse to allow partners to visit. States deny benefits to partners even with civil unions. Don't blame gays for forcing society to accept gay marriage when your side's put them in a position where that's the only way for them to get equality.
That's such bullshit. Yeah, Christians are the scourge of society huh?
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Old 07-05-13, 10:41 AM
  #488  
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Re: Polling Views on Non-Traditional Marriages

Originally Posted by JasonF View Post
It shows.



True. For gay couples, "Spend lots of money on lawyers just so you can get some of the rights straight couples automatically get" isn't good enough.

Then show me the law that contains an exception clause for gays in regards to wills. If I sign a will and name someone as a beneficiary then they have legal right to my inheritance, family or not.
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Old 07-05-13, 10:42 AM
  #489  
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Re: Polling Views on Non-Traditional Marriages

You are hopelessly naive, and as we've seen before, frequently wrong.
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Old 07-05-13, 10:44 AM
  #490  
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Re: Polling Views on Non-Traditional Marriages

Originally Posted by dvdjunkie32 View Post
That's such bullshit. Yeah, Christians are the scourge of society huh?
Hateful people are the scourge of society. It just so happens that hate based on "Christian values" is what we are discussing. I try not to let the hateful people color my perceptions of the millions of non hateful ones. You can decide which group you fall into.
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Old 07-05-13, 10:44 AM
  #491  
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Re: Polling Views on Non-Traditional Marriages

Originally Posted by Supermallet View Post
It's funny how he knows every single instance of a time a Christian business was forced to give service to people they dislike, but has no clue of the far more numerous cases of gay people being kept from seeing their partners in hospitals, not being allowed to make decisions on life support issues, being cut out of wills, and generally being treated like subhumans by the families of their partners.

It's almost like he's going through life with blinders on.

Wow, what an extremely ignorant and biased statement. You really think gay marriage is going to magically erase all that? Family members will suddenly embrace the gay couple? If they are being treated as sub-humans in NUMEROUS cases then that shows me that a MAJORITY of Americans are not comfortable with the gay lifestyle.

Welcome to the fucking real world.
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Old 07-05-13, 10:48 AM
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Re: Polling Views on Non-Traditional Marriages

Originally Posted by dave-o View Post
Hateful people are the scourge of society. It just so happens that hate based on "Christian values" is what we are discussing. I try not to let the hateful people color my perceptions of the millions of non hateful ones. You can decide which group you fall into.
With all due respect, every single reply from the opposition here has been rude, disrespectful and downright hateful. I've even been told that my kind just needs to fucking die. OTOH, I can certainly handle a difference of opinion without foaming at the mouth or resorting to cheap tricks to try to appear superior.
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Old 07-05-13, 10:49 AM
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Re: Polling Views on Non-Traditional Marriages

Originally Posted by Supermallet View Post
You are hopelessly naive, and as we've seen before, frequently wrong.
Typical atheist response - the atheist is ALWAYS right and the supreme expert in every field of knowledge. The Christian never once makes a valid true point.


This is the ridiculous illusion you live under.
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Old 07-05-13, 10:56 AM
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Re: Polling Views on Non-Traditional Marriages

Originally Posted by dvdjunkie32 View Post
Wow, what an extremely ignorant and biased statement. You really think gay marriage is going to magically erase all that? Family members will suddenly embrace the gay couple? If they are being treated as sub-humans in NUMEROUS cases then that shows me that a MAJORITY of Americans are not comfortable with the gay lifestyle.

Welcome to the fucking real world.
You seem to have trouble following your own arguments. You were discussing legalities, remember?
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Old 07-05-13, 10:58 AM
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Re: Polling Views on Non-Traditional Marriages

Originally Posted by dvdjunkie32 View Post
With all due respect, every single reply from the opposition here has been rude, disrespectful and downright hateful. I've even been told that my kind just needs to fucking die. OTOH, I can certainly handle a difference of opinion without foaming at the mouth or resorting to cheap tricks to try to appear superior.
Trust me when I say tricks, cheap or otherwise, are not needed.
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Old 07-05-13, 11:22 AM
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Re: Polling Views on Non-Traditional Marriages

Oh dvdjunkie, we've danced this dance so many times. Luckily your opinions on gay marriage are fast being consigned to the dustbin of history. If we're lucky, in time, your particular brand of religion (and I don't mean Christianity, I mean people who use their religion to justify hatred and bigotry) will also one day be a relic of the past.
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Old 07-05-13, 11:34 AM
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Re: Polling Views on Non-Traditional Marriages

Originally Posted by Supermallet View Post
Oh dvdjunkie, we've danced this dance so many times. Luckily your opinions on gay marriage are fast being consigned to the dustbin of history. If we're lucky, in time, your particular brand of religion (and I don't mean Christianity, I mean people who use their religion to justify hatred and bigotry) will also one day be a relic of the past.
And the dustbins of history show that societies which fully embrace homosexuality tend to be obliterated. Sin breeds destruction and evil men rarely die happy.
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Old 07-05-13, 11:40 AM
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Re: Polling Views on Non-Traditional Marriages

Originally Posted by dvdjunkie32 View Post
And the dustbins of history show that societies which fully embrace homosexuality tend to be obliterated. Sin breeds destruction and evil men rarely die happy.
Canada is doomed!
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Old 07-05-13, 11:50 AM
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Re: Polling Views on Non-Traditional Marriages

Originally Posted by Arpeggi View Post
If homosexuality wasn't socially accepted, then people might think about changing their behavior to conform.
I'd like to highlight this sentence, with no disrespect to the poster, to point out how central it is to the issue.

Because I *did* change my behavior to conform. And have spent my life frigid & fairly miserable as a result. I wouldn't wish "trying not to be gay" on my worst enemy.

Stigma & sin are very different things. Premarital sex & divorce may be sins, but their social stigma has largely evaporated in the modern era because even the most conservative & word-literal Christians can't seem to avoid them with any consistency. They may be sins, but we can't call people that do them evil. Not if it includes the people we hold most dear.

And that's what's happening with gay rights. It's not that gays can marry, exactly, that the haters are trying to fight so hard. It's not that we can soldier up now, or hold hands in public (in some places) without bodily harm. It's not any one thing. It's that the stigma is evaporating, and we are gradually becoming normal in everyone's eyes but theirs. People are realizing we *are* among their families & best friends. We're becoming un-evil.

Because being gay is necessarily seen as a "choice" by someone who wants to call it evil, they're very concerned that the wrong choice, minus the stigma, will be easier & easier to make. It's a fairly empty worry--hardly anyone chooses to be gay, and almost none that try not to be gay succeed--but the worry is self-perpetuating because evil *must* be a choice for their theology to stand.

Last edited by adamblast; 07-05-13 at 12:08 PM.
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Old 07-05-13, 12:03 PM
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Re: Polling Views on Non-Traditional Marriages

Originally Posted by adamblast View Post
I'd like to highlight this sentence, with no disrespect to the poster, to point out how central it is to the issue.

Because I *did* change my behavior to conform. And have spend my life frigid & fairly miserable as a result. I wouldn't wish "trying not to be gay" on my worst enemy.

Stigma & sin are very different things. Premarital sex & divorce may be sins, but their social stigma has largely evaporated in the modern era because even the most conservative & word-literal Christians can't seem to avoid them with any consistency. They may be sins, but we can't call people that do them evil. Not if it includes the people we hold most dear.

And that's what's happening with gay rights. It's not that gays can marry, exactly, that the haters are trying to fight so hard. It's not that we can soldier up now, or hold hands in public (in some places) without bodily harm. It's not any one thing. It's that the stigma is evaporating, and we are becoming normal in everyone's eyes but theirs. People are realizing we *are* among their families & best friends. We're becoming un-evil.

Because being gay is necessarily seen as a "choice" by someone who wants to call it evil, they're very concerned that the wrong choice, minus the stigma, will be easier & easier to make. It's a fairly empty worry--hardly anyone chooses to be gay, and almost none that try not to be gay succeed--but the worry is self-perpetuating because evil *must* be a choice for their theology to stand.
Well said Adam, well said. A little human empathy can go a long way, regardless of one's beliefs...
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