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View Poll Results: Assuming it's between consenting adults, which types of marriage should be legal?
Marriage legal for gays, incestuous couples & polygamists
44.00%
Marriage legal for gays & incestuous couples, illegal for polygamists
2.67%
Marriage legal for gays & polygamists, illegal for incestuous couples
16.00%
Marriage legal for incestuous couples & polygamists, illegal for gays
1.33%
Marriage legal for gays, illegal for incestuous couples & polygamists
21.33%
Marriage legal for incestuous couples, illegal for gays & polygamists
1.33%
Marriage legal for polygamists, illegal for gays & incestuous couples
1.33%
Marriage illegal for gays, incestuous couples & polygamists
4.00%
Marriage legal for twickoff
8.00%
Voters: 75. You may not vote on this poll

Polling Views on Non-Traditional Marriages

Old 06-28-13, 10:08 AM
  #26  
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Re: Polling Views on Non-Traditional Marriages

Originally Posted by sracer View Post
The arguments against polygamy and incestuous marriages are no more rational than the ones against same-sex marriages. It's simply that this point in time, those arguments are embraced as "valid". the arguments against same-sex marriage were considered valid up to the 70's and 80's. Times change.

financial/tax implications of polygamy? How is that any different than heterosexual marriages formed out of financial convenience? Or heterosexual roommates of the same sex getting married on paper for the financial and tax benefits?

birth defects in incestuous marriage? The potential for birth defects is currently a concern with non-related couples but we as a society don't prevent that. Even when high-risk couples get married, they aren't prevented from having children. Besides, with prenatal testing, they can have an abortion right up to moments before the baby is born.

You may try to fool yourself into thinking that there's a difference in the arguments against those other types of marriages, but those differences are nothing more than a reflection of YOUR current bias. If you were in favor of polygamy, you would find arguments against it irrational.

And why is "as long as it's among consenting adults" argument confined to sex and marriage? Why is prostitution illegal? Why is smoking marijuana illegal? Why is many forms of gambling illegal? Why can't people loan money to others at interest rates that they choose? Why can't people host their own lottery?
On polygamy, I should've typed financial/tax/legal rights issues. And when I said it's a rational point, I mean that I can understand that they're issues that would make it a bit more complex to legalize than just saying, 'go for it, same rules as traditional marriages,' which can easily be done with gay marriages.

On the incestuous birth defects argument, I'd say it's rational in that it's based on something somewhat quantifiable, as opposed to 'ewwww, gross.' That doesn't mean that I agree with the argument, just that I can understand it.

And I agree that we have many restrictions on other behaviors among consenting adults that would be better removed.

Originally Posted by classicman2 View Post
How many times are we going to have a thread on this subject?

It seems to be the most burning issue for many of our members. I wonder why? IMO - there are far more important issues that this country faces other than this one.
My intent was this would be the dumping ground that would cause it to stop popping it all over the place, so hopefully this is the last thread on the subject.
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Old 06-28-13, 10:12 AM
  #27  
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Re: Polling Views on Non-Traditional Marriages

The poll results so far ought to take the wind of our creekdipper's "Y'all are hypocrites!" sails.
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Old 06-28-13, 10:16 AM
  #28  
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Re: Polling Views on Non-Traditional Marriages

Originally Posted by Groucho View Post
With both same-sex and polygamy legal, I think the mob bosses best option is to marry everybody in his organization.
This raises an interesting question.

Suppose two men commit a crime together. They're arrested and post bail. They're both worried that the other will flip, so they agree to get samesexmarried to each other, so that neither can be asked to testify against the other.

Is immunity from testifying against a spouse absolute, or does it depend on when the crime happened relative to the marriage? Can the prosecution argue that the marriage is sham and that they have to testify against each other?
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Old 06-28-13, 10:22 AM
  #29  
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Re: Polling Views on Non-Traditional Marriages

The issue I continue to have with polygamy is that marriage as it stands is a partnership between two people. The sex of those involved is irrelevant, because there is no requirement for children or whatever. It's the number that's important...2 people. Allowing same-sex marriage has absolutely no effect on marriage as it stands now...because again, it's the number of people that makes marriage what it is in the eyes of the government...not the sex of those involved.

Legalizing polygamy is fine but it's completely different. What if a man wanted to marry 100 women? That is a wildly different arrangement that needs a whole new set of rules and requirements drafted. As JasonF said...it's not impossible. But the two aren't even in the same ballpark.

Originally Posted by RoyalTea View Post
This raises an interesting question.

Suppose two men commit a crime together. They're arrested and post bail. They're both worried that the other will flip, so they agree to get samesexmarried to each other, so that neither can be asked to testify against the other.

Is immunity from testifying against a spouse absolute, or does it depend on when the crime happened relative to the marriage? Can the prosecution argue that the marriage is sham and that they have to testify against each other?
Why couldn't this happen now with a male-female crime team? I'm sure you could look up some kind of precedent.

Last edited by Draven; 06-28-13 at 10:27 AM.
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Old 06-28-13, 10:25 AM
  #30  
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Re: Polling Views on Non-Traditional Marriages

It's been a while since I studied testimonial privilege, but my recollection is that there are two kinds of privilege.

One is that one spouse cannot be compelled to testify against the other. That privilege belongs to the testifying spouse. So my wife can't be compelled to testify against me, but if she wants to testify, I can't stop her from testifying. The privilege exists only as long as the marriage, so if we get divorced, she loses that privilege.

The other privilege is that marital communications are privileged. That privilege belongs to both parties to the communication and cannot be unilaterally waived. So I can prevent my wife from testifying about something I said to her while we were married, even if we have subsequently divorced, and even if she wants to testify about it. However, it does not apply to any communications we had prior to (or after) the marriage.

It's been a while since I studied these privileges, and they may not apply in all jurisdictions, so check with your lawyer before you rely on them.
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Old 06-28-13, 10:25 AM
  #31  
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Re: Polling Views on Non-Traditional Marriages

Originally Posted by RoyalTea View Post
Suppose two men commit a crime together. They're arrested and post bail. They're both worried that the other will flip, so they agree to get samesexmarried to each other, so that neither can be asked to testify against the other.
I have to wonder if this has been tried before, since it's a possibility with a man and woman too.
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Old 06-28-13, 10:44 AM
  #32  
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Re: Polling Views on Non-Traditional Marriages

Originally Posted by Groucho View Post
I have to wonder if this has been tried before, since it's a possibility with a man and woman too.
True, but a lot of people seem to be worried that same sex marriages will be done only to take advantage of these kinds of rules.

Helen marries Antonio so that Antonio can get a green card, no big deal since they're different genders. But if Lowell gets married to Roy so Lowell can get health insurance (I don't think that was a real episode of Wings but it should have been), that's horrible and enough reason to prevent a legitimate same sex couple from getting married, too. At least that's how I interpret some people's arguments.
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Old 06-28-13, 10:48 AM
  #33  
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Re: Polling Views on Non-Traditional Marriages

OH MY GOD! Can we have one thread in this forum without a Wings reference!?
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Old 06-28-13, 10:50 AM
  #34  
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Re: Polling Views on Non-Traditional Marriages

Originally Posted by JasonF View Post
OH MY GOD! Can we have one thread in this forum without a Wings reference!?
Should I create a one-and-only Wings thread?
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Old 06-28-13, 10:54 AM
  #35  
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Re: Polling Views on Non-Traditional Marriages

This brings up another important point. JasonF's and Groucho's Avatars are very similar in color. It makes it hard to differentiate between them, especially when they post right after each other.
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Old 06-28-13, 11:00 AM
  #36  
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Re: Polling Views on Non-Traditional Marriages

Originally Posted by VinVega View Post
This brings up another important point. JasonF's and Groucho's Avatars are very similar in color. It makes it hard to differentiate between them, especially when they post right after each other.
I've got a quick fix - just turn them off. Makes the whole forum more pleasant!
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Old 06-28-13, 11:41 AM
  #37  
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Re: Polling Views on Non-Traditional Marriages

Originally Posted by Draven View Post
I've got a quick fix - just turn them off. Makes the whole forum more pleasant!
I did for the longest time, but I think I probably have to have them on now given my new position and the fact that everyone can get one too.
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Old 06-28-13, 12:52 PM
  #38  
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Re: Polling Views on Non-Traditional Marriages

Originally Posted by JasonF View Post
OH MY GOD! Can we have one thread in this forum without a Wings reference!?
We're so sorry.



Uncle Albert.
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Old 06-28-13, 01:49 PM
  #39  
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Re: Polling Views on Non-Traditional Marriages

I've never seen it as an issue of "illegal" with same-sex marriage, as in "You get married, you're going to jail." Because previously you couldn't get married to someone of the same sex (was not recognized as a marriage, but a partnership).

Illegal for incestuous couples & polygamists, yes. In theory they could get married without notifying of the circumstances and be violating a law.
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Old 06-28-13, 01:51 PM
  #40  
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Re: Polling Views on Non-Traditional Marriages

Polygamists want it decriminalized, because while nobody is actually going after polygamists, they're using the law to gain access to compounds where they think other illegal activity is going on, but can't prove.
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Old 06-28-13, 02:35 PM
  #41  
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Re: Polling Views on Non-Traditional Marriages

I voted for marriage for all, but that's now how the legal system works. Each group will have to fight their own battles. As someone else said, I do not think we have to make everything legal just because we make one thing legal.

To use a less contentious example, pot has been legalized, either fully or for medical purposes, in several states. I don't hear people saying that we have to legalize heroin and meth before we can accept legalized marijuana.
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Old 06-28-13, 05:43 PM
  #42  
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Re: Polling Views on Non-Traditional Marriages

Originally Posted by Supermallet View Post
To use a less contentious example, pot has been legalized, either fully or for medical purposes, in several states. I don't hear people saying that we have to legalize heroin and meth before we can accept legalized marijuana.
Because "separate but equal" worked so well before...

You can't just recognize marijuana as a legal substance. Call marijuana "tobacco" and treat it exactly the same under the law or you're a pot hater. Keep biological or dictionary arguments out of it too, please.
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Old 06-28-13, 06:59 PM
  #43  
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Re: Polling Views on Non-Traditional Marriages

Originally Posted by Groucho View Post
Polygamists want it decriminalized, because while nobody is actually going after polygamists, they're using the law to gain access to compounds where they think other illegal activity is going on, but can't prove.
"Polygamy" isn't actually illegal, is it? It's just not recognized under law, like gay marriage in 37 states.

"Bigamy," on the other hand, is, but that's only if one attempts to be legally married to more than one person.
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Old 06-28-13, 07:23 PM
  #44  
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Re: Polling Views on Non-Traditional Marriages

Originally Posted by Josh-da-man View Post
"Polygamy" isn't actually illegal, is it? It's just not recognized under law, like gay marriage in 37 states.
A man is more than welcome to shack up with two or more women, if they are willing. Look at Hugh Hefner. That doesn't make it a legal marriage, just like the fact that two men can live together in Mississippi doesn't mean they are married in the eyes of the state.

By the way, how are polygamy and incest non-traditional marriage? Both of them are in the Bible.
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Old 06-28-13, 08:56 PM
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Re: Polling Views on Non-Traditional Marriages

Originally Posted by Th0r S1mpson View Post
Because "separate but equal" worked so well before...

You can't just recognize marijuana as a legal substance. Call marijuana "tobacco" and treat it exactly the same under the law or you're a pot hater. Keep biological or dictionary arguments out of it too, please.
I can't tell if you're lampooning the anti-gay crowd, or if you're trying to apply civil rights arguments to plants and drugs.
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Old 06-28-13, 09:38 PM
  #46  
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Re: Polling Views on Non-Traditional Marriages

The fuck is a "Twickoff"
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Old 06-28-13, 09:42 PM
  #47  
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Re: Polling Views on Non-Traditional Marriages

Originally Posted by JasonF View Post
A man is more than welcome to shack up with two or more women, if they are willing. Look at Hugh Hefner. That doesn't make it a legal marriage, just like the fact that two men can live together in Mississippi doesn't mean they are married in the eyes of the state.

By the way, how are polygamy and incest non-traditional marriage? Both of them are in the Bible.
I was responding to Groucho's post about using laws against polygamy to raid Mormon compounds... oh, never mind...

And, yes, there's more incest in the Bible, both explicit (see Lot laying pipe in his own daughters) and implied (Adam & Eve, Noah's family) than there is in Game of Thrones. And they're both fairy tales.
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Old 06-28-13, 09:49 PM
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Re: Polling Views on Non-Traditional Marriages

Originally Posted by Josh-da-man View Post
I was responding to Groucho's post about using laws against polygamy to raid Mormon compounds... oh, never mind...

And, yes, there's more incest in the Bible, both explicit (see Lot laying pipe in his own daughters) and implied (Adam & Eve, Noah's family) than there is in Game of Thrones. And they're both fairy tales.
It is illegal in all fifty states, being a felony in most.





True about the incest, but are the last couple of books in the Bible as poor as GoT's?
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Old 06-28-13, 09:50 PM
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Re: Polling Views on Non-Traditional Marriages

Originally Posted by Supermallet View Post
I can't tell if you're lampooning the anti-gay crowd, or if you're trying to apply civil rights arguments to plants and drugs.
I don't know either what he is saying, I just know that I really want Thor to change his name back.
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Old 06-28-13, 10:23 PM
  #50  
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Re: Polling Views on Non-Traditional Marriages

Marriage is a sacred institution worth defending, and I'm not ashamed to say God invented it. People argue the supposed "design" of their emotions, while ignoring the same about their own bodies. We can't always choose our initial thoughts, but dwelling and acting on them is a conscious decision. Folks who want other unions already have the right in various states; what they want is federal endorsement and financial support. This has always been about money, not "equal rights".
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