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This is what martial law in the US looks like

Old 04-22-13, 08:35 PM
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This is what martial law in the US looks like

I agree with this article. Door to door searches with police and guns like this is not what this country is supposed to be about.


http://www.infowars.com/shocking-foo...by-swat-teams/

Shocking Footage: Americans Ordered Out Of Homes At Gunpoint By SWAT teams

This is what martial law in the US looks like

April 22, 2013

Shocking footage has emerged from Friday’s lockdown in Boston, where police, federal agents, national guard troops and SWAT teams enforced door to door searches of everyone’s home within twenty blocks as the entire city was placed under orders to stay off the streets.

The video, shot by a resident from their own house across the street, shows police barking orders at men and women as they order them at gunpoint to identify themselves, put their hands on their heads, and get out of their own home. They are then ordered to run down the street to be further frisked by police as scores of armed militarized cops look on.


The story floated in the mainstream media that the door to door searches were conducted with the voluntary consent of the residents of Watertown is clearly false. 9000+ Police locked down an entire city and went in with full force, with armored vehicles and combat gear

While armies of police roamed around people’s homes and private property, Public transportation was shut down, businesses were forced to close, and a no-fly zone was enacted over Boston in an unprecedented show of force.

At this point, as military helicopters buzzed over neighborhoods, the Fourth Amendment had ceased to exist in Boston, which quickly resembled a war zone.

The compliant mainstream media reported on the activity without alarm or question.

This activity, once again, sets a shocking precedent. Police and military are training in these circumstances every single day of the year. They are fully acclimatized to the process, as if it is completely normal. They do not hesitate in carrying out such orders, which are now being implemented whenever the authorities deem a situation to be an emergency.

This is what fully fledged martial law in America looks like.

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Old 04-22-13, 09:58 PM
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Re: This is what martial law in the US looks like

I think we know what Martial Law is. What's your point, G!
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Old 04-23-13, 04:33 AM
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Re: This is what martial law in the US looks like

Originally Posted by grundle View Post
I agree with this article. Door to door searches with police and guns like this is not what this country is supposed to be about.

Remember this?

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/2iGYVh7HZo8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

It forever changed the world we live in, and how we relate to emergency situations that are caused by an act of intentional terrorism. Like it or not.
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Old 04-23-13, 06:36 AM
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Re: This is what martial law in the US looks like

This country is a bunch of fucking whiners.
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Old 04-23-13, 08:52 AM
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Re: This is what martial law in the US looks like

Yes, the freedom to detonate pressure cooker bombs and hideout in people's property is what this country is about, dagnabbit!
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Old 04-23-13, 09:09 AM
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Re: This is what martial law in the US looks like

The fact that Tsarnaev wasn't found until they lifted the lockdown was almost enough to make me start believing in god.
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Old 04-23-13, 09:12 AM
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Re: This is what martial law in the US looks like

I will be the first to admit that, even though I work in law enforcement, I don't know all the Fourth Amendment implications here. I've never participated in a situation like what happened in Watertown.

Let me start with this. Based on what the police were doing, which is searching the home for the bomber, I don't see anything in the video that is concerning. When you search a home for an armed mass murderer, that's how you do it.

The question is, did the police search every home in the twenty block radius in a similar fashion? Somehow I doubt that, and they may very well have had some very valid reason to focus on the home in the video and search it aggressively rather than simply just knocking on the door and interviewing the occupants.

There are exigent circumstances exceptions to the search warrant requirement to search a residence. One of them kicks in while the police are in pursuit of a fugitive. However, probable cause to believe that the fugitive may be in the residence still has to exist for this exception to kick in. Obviously, to cite the exception as the basis of a forcible search of every residence in a twenty block area would be a tremendous stretch, legally speaking.

I also have no idea what special powers the declared police lockdown on that area of Watertown might give police to conduct involuntary searches of residences. However, I think it is safe to say that calling the lockdown "martial law" is rather silly.
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Old 04-23-13, 09:43 AM
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Re: This is what martial law in the US looks like

I know this question is ironic, but why do people even post in grundle threads?

Every single one I've seen is hyperbolic at best and willfully stupid at worst.
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Old 04-23-13, 09:50 AM
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Re: This is what martial law in the US looks like

Originally Posted by CRM114 View Post
Yes, the freedom to detonate pressure cooker bombs and hideout in people's property is what this country is about, dagnabbit!
This is my take, as well.

I certainly don't dismiss the concerns about a police state and mass infringement of civil liberties. But I think there ARE legitimate reasons for martial law and searches like this within the context of a free society. The reasons would have to be very extreme, very specific, and cover a very limited time frame---and in this case I think they were.
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Old 04-23-13, 09:54 AM
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Re: This is what martial law in the US looks like

Originally Posted by E. Honda View Post
Remember this?

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/2iGYVh7HZo8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

It forever changed the world we live in, and how we relate to emergency situations that are caused by an act of intentional terrorism. Like it or not.

Some 20+ years ago we were on vacation down in Mexico. A nice resort in Acapulco I believe. While there a mild hurricane hit. It knocked out power, washed out a road or two, but no significant damage.

Within hours of the wind settling down the beaches, hotels, bars, restaurants, stores, airports, outdoor malls, everywhere started being patrolled by machine gun armed, bullet proof vest wearing, riot helmet wearing military and police. Heck they were even friendly giving direction and answering questions. We were told they were all there for "our" safety. I'm sure they meant tourist. I still remember telling my wife "that is something you would never see in the USA".

Of course 9/11 changed all that. I was living in Arizona when 9/11 happened and remember the oddness of not seeing an airplane in the sky right after the attack. And then starting to see random pairs of military aircraft patrolling the skies. Military aircraft patrolling over US soil. I guess that is when it really hit, things would never be the same.
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Old 04-23-13, 10:07 AM
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Re: This is what martial law in the US looks like

Originally Posted by chess View Post
I know this question is ironic, but why do people even post in grundle threads?
If this video had only been posted on Youtube and a couple of right-wing whackjob websites, I would agree. However, this video is now all over the place and people are asking questions.

Plus, the legal issues here are actually pretty fascinating.
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Old 04-23-13, 11:30 AM
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Re: This is what martial law in the US looks like

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/q-AU7TB7Poo" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
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Old 04-23-13, 11:39 AM
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Re: This is what martial law in the US looks like

Maybe a naive question but suppose those searches found a Meth house or a pot house. Could that be used to go back when they're bored and arrest and or charge for that crime?
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Old 04-23-13, 11:46 AM
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Re: This is what martial law in the US looks like

Originally Posted by Timber View Post
Maybe a naive question but suppose those searches found a Meth house or a pot house. Could that be used to go back when they're bored and arrest and or charge for that crime?
If in plain sight, I believe they can.

If they were searching in closets, under beds for the terrorist, and came across it, I don't think they can.

It like when police arrive at a home for a domestic disturbance. If they see something they can take action, or use it against the owner. But without a warrant can't just start looking through their home. And my understanding is that warrants are specific.
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Old 04-23-13, 12:06 PM
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Re: This is what martial law in the US looks like

Originally Posted by Sdallnct View Post
If in plain sight, I believe they can.

If they were searching in closets, under beds for the terrorist, and came across it, I don't think they can.
In closets and under beds would be fair game if the search was legal. In this case, they were searching for a fugitive. It would have been reasonable for them to search in closets and under beds. Other evidence of criminal activity viewed during this search could be grounds for a new warrant.

On the other hand, if one of the searching officers had started pulling open desk drawers and found 5 pounds of cocaine, that would not have been reasonable. You cannot articulate that the bombing suspect would have been hiding in a desk drawer.

Search warrants are specific, yes, but usually only specific as to what is being looked for, not where. If I have a search warrant for your home to look for methamphetamine, I will generally be able to look anywhere in your home where these drugs might be stored. For something as small as illegal drugs, that effectively means I can look just about anywhere.
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Old 04-23-13, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by jfoobar View Post

In closets and under beds would be fair game if the search was legal. In this case, they were searching for a fugitive. It would have been reasonable for them to search in closets and under beds. Other evidence of criminal activity viewed during this search could be grounds for a new warrant.

On the other hand, if one of the searching officers had started pulling open desk drawers and found 5 pounds of cocaine, that would not have been reasonable. You cannot articulate that the bombing suspect would have been hiding in a desk drawer.
Oh sure. tell the bombers where to hide why don't ya?
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Old 04-23-13, 12:26 PM
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Re: This is what martial law in the US looks like

Again, infowars.
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Old 04-23-13, 01:33 PM
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Re: This is what martial law in the US looks like

The "lockdown" was voluntary, was it not?

How many people were in that freakin' house? No wonder they were singled out.
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Old 04-23-13, 01:53 PM
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Re: This is what martial law in the US looks like

Originally Posted by CRM114 View Post
The "lockdown" was voluntary, was it not?

How many people were in that freakin' house? No wonder they were singled out.
I don't think it was truly voluntary within that 20-block radius. The effective shutdown of the rest of Boston was definitely voluntary, but since the government did compel the shutdown of mass transit, public schools, etc., I would say they hastened it quite a bit.

I was reading something yesterday about how some businesses did remain open that day. One thing they mentioned were a couple of Chinese restaurants. More evidence to support the notion that it would take an apocalypse to shut down the supply of Chinese food.
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Old 04-23-13, 02:30 PM
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Re: This is what martial law in the US looks like

I wandered over to VC to see if they had posted anything on it (haven't been keeping up with reading it lately). Sure enough:

http://www.volokh.com/2013/04/19/hou...rth-amendment/

Current events in Boston raise the question of whether the Fourth Amendment allows the government to conduct house-to-house searches for an armed and dangerous suspect on the loose. Assume the police enter a home without consent searching for Dzhokhar Tsarnaev; does the entry violate the Fourth Amendment? The answer depends on whether such home entries are “reasonable” under the Fourth Amendment, which requires a case-by-case balancing of the government’s interest in making the searches and the scope of the privacy invasion. The constitutional question would seem to depend on whether the searches are reasonably limited in scope (such as limited to a specific geographic area), the dangerousness of the suspect (here, very high), and the strength of the government’s case that the suspect may be in the area and cannot be caught another way. Fortunately there aren’t a lot of cases on anything like we’re seeing in Boston, at least as far as I could find. The closest cases I know of involve roadblocks instead of home searches, which is in the ballpark of dragnet searches and seizures but not particularly close on the facts. See, e.g., City of Indianapolis v. Edmond, 531 U.S. 32 (2000) (noting in dicta that “the Fourth Amendment would almost certainly permit an appropriately tailored roadblock set up to thwart an imminent terrorist attack or to catch a dangerous criminal who is likely to flee by way of a particular route.”); United States v. Paetsch, — F.Supp.2d —-, 2012 WL 5213011 (D.Colo. 2012) (dragnet roadblock at intersection to catch bank robber held reasonable under the Fourth Amendment).

Note that caselaw on these sorts of facts are particularly unlikely for reasons beyond the fortunate rarity of their occurrence. The suspect won’t have Fourth Amendment standing to bring a suit or a motion to suppress to challenge a search of someone else’s house in which he was hiding. See Rakas v. Illinois, 439 U.S. 128 (1978). As a result, only the legitimate residents could bring such actions in a civil case. And if they did bring such suits, qualified immunity would bar recovery unless the violation was clearly established — which is unlikely here given the novelty of the facts.
As I suspected, the legality here is pretty muddled.

If the police saw the suspect flee to a specific cluster of homes (say 6-8 homes in a small area) and conducted a involuntary sweep of all of those homes, I would say their actions are going to be viewed as reasonable. On the other hand, if they did a home-to-home sweep of an entire town, that would obviously be unreasonable. The question is where in the middle ground the line of reasonableness resides.

Also relevant is the first comment to the post over on VC:

A niece of mine lives in Watertown, on the 1st floor of one of those ubiquitous triple-deckers. She told me early today that the police had been there as part of the canvass, but the police didn't come busting in -- they knocked on the door. Nor did they "toss" the apartment, e.g., opening closet doors [ETA after speaking to my niece again Sunday evening: this should be opening closet drawers, the kind of thing she meant when she told me Friday AM they did not "toss the apartment"; they did open closet doors], although she & her roommate invited the officers to "look around if you'd like."

She described the officers as tense, obviously on high alert, but polite and concerned for the her and roommate's well-being and safety... returning to assure all the residents that there were no signs of forced-surreptitious entry into the cellar (which isn't accessible by any of the tenants; it's got an exterior door & only the landlord has the key to the padlock).
Whether or not this guy's nieces lived within the original 20-block area on lockdown I cannot say.
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Old 04-23-13, 03:55 PM
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Re: This is what martial law in the US looks like

This is why you don't open your door.
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Old 04-23-13, 04:33 PM
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Re: This is what martial law in the US looks like

Originally Posted by E. Honda View Post
Remember this?

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/2iGYVh7HZo8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

It forever changed the world we live in, and how we relate to emergency situations that are caused by an act of intentional terrorism. Like it or not.
Huh... that was an inside job which allowed the US government to further shove the New World Order down people's throats.










(I'm just going with what that Infowars site says)
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Old 04-23-13, 04:36 PM
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Re: This is what martial law in the US looks like

Originally Posted by jfoobar View Post
In closets and under beds would be fair game if the search was legal. In this case, they were searching for a fugitive. It would have been reasonable for them to search in closets and under beds. Other evidence of criminal activity viewed during this search could be grounds for a new warrant.

On the other hand, if one of the searching officers had started pulling open desk drawers and found 5 pounds of cocaine, that would not have been reasonable. You cannot articulate that the bombing suspect would have been hiding in a desk drawer.

Search warrants are specific, yes, but usually only specific as to what is being looked for, not where. If I have a search warrant for your home to look for methamphetamine, I will generally be able to look anywhere in your home where these drugs might be stored. For something as small as illegal drugs, that effectively means I can look just about anywhere.
You said much better than what I meant. If I understanding correctly, assuming what they were doing was legal, than anything in plain sight from the legal "doings" is fair game. But like you said, they can't "expand" that.
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Old 04-23-13, 04:48 PM
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Re: This is what martial law in the US looks like

Originally Posted by Ky-Fi View Post
This is my take, as well.

I certainly don't dismiss the concerns about a police state and mass infringement of civil liberties. But I think there ARE legitimate reasons for martial law and searches like this within the context of a free society. The reasons would have to be very extreme, very specific, and cover a very limited time frame---and in this case I think they were.
All this. They should also be unusual, which this one also was.
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Old 04-23-13, 04:57 PM
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Re: This is what martial law in the US looks like

If the terrorists can scare us into giving up our constitutional freedoms, then the terrorists have won.

I'm more worried about this incident of martial law setting a precedent than I am about this incident of martial law itself.

What if, in the future, every murder results in this kind of martial law?
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