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Religion, Politics and World Events They make great dinner conversation, don't you think? plus Political Film

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Old 04-05-13, 09:37 PM   #126
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Re: Fast Food Workers Strike in NYC. What do we want??? $15 an hour!!!

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Originally Posted by Sdallnct View Post
Supply and demand....a lot of people can be "average" workers. Few can be CEO's of Fortune 500 type companies. Though there are fewer of those positions.

Again, if the average worker can bet better pay elsewhere, they should go get it. The "average" CEO can get paid more (if not paid appropriately).
This is what I mean by the market becoming an end unto itself. You've answered the question of how CEOs are so highly compensated, but haven't touched the question of why they are so highly compensated.
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Old 04-05-13, 09:47 PM   #127
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Re: Fast Food Workers Strike in NYC. What do we want??? $15 an hour!!!

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Well, I agree with you. I'm not sure i agree with bail outs. Just the idea of who decides what companies should be bailed out and those that don't is disturbing (Kodak was a grand old company, but went down without much of a thought).

But let's not forget that much of the reasons for the bailouts was so that those regular employees would continue to have a job. No one was suggesting bailouts to help the "poor" CEO's and their staff.

I do agree that if anyone (including the Feds) lends money to a company they should have rules for repaying that are agrees on.

However, as pro-business as I am, I do not want private, for profit companies trying to be moral or social stewards. I think that a very scary proposition.
Unfortunately, I was once for bail outs a long time ago--at least in theory--because I always thought a company worked hard and deserved a break because of dire economics that were beyond their control...but it's been clear today's larger corporations see it as a retirement parachute and a way to get even richer. They simply don't care about their workers ("care" meaning: rewarding their workers to further the company and be more productive for an even stronger economy).

Personally, I think the US Government should start funding more smaller companies and businesses and turning away from larger corporations. Yeah, I know, fat chance. It seems small businesses are going to be a thing of the past.
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Old 04-05-13, 10:52 PM   #128
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Re: Fast Food Workers Strike in NYC. What do we want??? $15 an hour!!!

What if the number of living-wage jobs is LESS THAN the number of employable adults who need to earn a living? By adult, I mean someone who is 18 or older.
Living-Wage Jobs < Employable Adults
"Musical Chairs" Metaphor: If there are fewer "chairs" (living-wage jobs) than "players" (employable adults), then some people must be left standing NO MATTER WHAT. Even if everyone obtains a college degree and strives to succeed, some people will be out of luck. And it is entirely possible that the number of "chairs" will decrease in the future as income becomes concentrated in the hands of the top 1-2 percent.

Question: At what point will conservatives stop doing what sociologists call "blaming the victim"? When 25 percent of people can't find a living-wage job? 33 percent? 50 percent?
Hypothesis: I imagine that most will only stop blaming the victim once they find themselves (or close family members) wearing the victim's shoes.
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Old 04-06-13, 03:05 AM   #129
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Re: Fast Food Workers Strike in NYC. What do we want??? $15 an hour!!!

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Originally Posted by Why So Blu? View Post
Also, I never said it should be up to 15$, but more than $8-$9 or whatever it is now, most definitely.

Limits that people put on themselves is just one factor, but not the deciding factor, because in some cases it goes way beyond that, but if you're an outsider looking in, then you will never know. It's pretty easy to say "do this and do that and why don't you do it this way," etc.

You think someone that has kids or other obligations can intern somewhere for free? Those are the gigs that are best served for the 18-19 year kids right out of high school. Real world workers need to get paid.
Internship is but one example I gave. I could list many more options. But if your going to say no matter what options are available "some" just can't do it, then my answer would be, let's address those few "some" rather than change the entire system. Or just throw money at it.

I never said thise interns shouldn't get paid. My suggestion was use tax payer money to pay them while they learned.

And remember when you say those on the "outside"....most of us were on the "outside" at one point. Few people get life handed to them on a silver platter.

We are in agreement. Sort of. I have no problem anyone EARNING more money. But I'm against paying more "just because". But I'm very willing to help those that need it learn more/new skills to earn that money. That could be as simple as free day care so they could go to night school.


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Originally Posted by JasonF View Post
This is what I mean by the market becoming an end unto itself. You've answered the question of how CEOs are so highly compensated, but haven't touched the question of why they are so highly compensated.
The why is because they get paid based on the impact they can have on the organization.

You can agree or disagree with the impact or how much impact. Or feel sometimes they are wrong to expect such impact, but that is the why.

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Originally Posted by DVD Polizei View Post
Unfortunately, I was once for bail outs a long time ago--at least in theory--because I always thought a company worked hard and deserved a break because of dire economics that were beyond their control...but it's been clear today's larger corporations see it as a retirement parachute and a way to get even richer. They simply don't care about their workers ("care" meaning: rewarding their workers to further the company and be more productive for an even stronger economy).

Personally, I think the US Government should start funding more smaller companies and businesses and turning away from larger corporations. Yeah, I know, fat chance. It seems small businesses are going to be a thing of the past.
I have no problem with helping small business.

I've been sort of fascinated by the Kickstarter program. But that is probably another thread.

But I also don't agree the big business hates their employees. Nor do I think small business treats employees better. In fact I could make an argument they don't treat them as well. Big business often has better benefits, more paid time off, better sick leave policy, abllity to report such things as harassment, more opportunity for advancement, different job opportunities, etc.

I'm still torn on the bailout thing. I think businesses/industries even jobs have a life cycle. And I think as an economy it changes and advances. Someone mentioned steel workers. Should we bring those jobs back? Or should we have other jobs? Should we tell Ford not to automate or use robots so they there can still be people manually painting a new car body? Even if the result is a lessor product? Or should we encourage advancement in the "hopes" it opens new industry, opportunity and jobs? And no I'm no neive to think eliminating a job always opens 10 more or even another one.
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Old 04-06-13, 03:17 AM   #130
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Re: Fast Food Workers Strike in NYC. What do we want??? $15 an hour!!!

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Originally Posted by Ghostbuster View Post
What if the number of living-wage jobs is LESS THAN the number of employable adults who need to earn a living? By adult, I mean someone who is 18 or older.
Living-Wage Jobs < Employable Adults
"Musical Chairs" Metaphor: If there are fewer "chairs" (living-wage jobs) than "players" (employable adults), then some people must be left standing NO MATTER WHAT. Even if everyone obtains a college degree and strives to succeed, some people will be out of luck. And it is entirely possible that the number of "chairs" will decrease in the future as income becomes concentrated in the hands of the top 1-2 percent.

Question: At what point will conservatives stop doing what sociologists call "blaming the victim"? When 25 percent of people can't find a living-wage job? 33 percent? 50 percent?
Hypothesis: I imagine that most will only stop blaming the victim once they find themselves (or close family members) wearing the victim's shoes.
It's an interesting proposition. How about I make one,

What happens when the workforce as a whole ages and moves towards retirement?

What happens if there are not enough workers qualified to fill livable wage jobs?

If all baby boomers were to retire at the traditional time, there likely would be a worker shortage. For good or bad I suppose, some will continue to work past traditional retirement age.
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Old 04-06-13, 08:33 AM   #131
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Re: Fast Food Workers Strike in NYC. What do we want??? $15 an hour!!!

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Originally Posted by JasonF View Post
This is what I mean by the market becoming an end unto itself. You've answered the question of how CEOs are so highly compensated, but haven't touched the question of why they are so highly compensated.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sdallnct View Post


The why is because they get paid based on the impact they can have on the organization.

You can agree or disagree with the impact or how much impact. Or feel sometimes they are wrong to expect such impact, but that is the why.



I have no problem with helping small business.
Wrong, they get what they get because they realized they can get away with it. What you are saying is that the present day ceo is worth so much more than his counterpart 50 years ago. This is just not true. What is true is they now funnnel ever greater percentages into their own pockets at the expense of everyone else in the company. So for the majority of workers their pay is flat and their buying power goes down. But the few are making and taking ever larger portions regardless as to how the company is actually doing. This is going to be a major crisis and is, to me, the biggest threat to our way of life today.
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Old 04-06-13, 09:12 AM   #132
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Re: Fast Food Workers Strike in NYC. What do we want??? $15 an hour!!!

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Wrong, they get what they get because they realized they can get away with it. What you are saying is that the present day ceo is worth so much more than his counterpart 50 years ago. This is just not true. What is true is they now funnnel ever greater percentages into their own pockets at the expense of everyone else in the company. So for the majority of workers their pay is flat and their buying power goes down. But the few are making and taking ever larger portions regardless as to how the company is actually doing. This is going to be a major crisis and is, to me, the biggest threat to our way of life today.
You do know that a CEO can't just snap a finger and get money, right? That all Fortune 500 companies have oversight for the CEO (board of directors) And that is before we even get to federal oversight. Not to mention if a stock company having to answer to shareholders. And that there are no secrets. Open an annual report and you will see what these folks make. Everyone knows.

You act like a CEO is some sort of King. He is just an employee and can be fired like any other.
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Old 04-06-13, 09:25 AM   #133
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Re: Fast Food Workers Strike in NYC. What do we want??? $15 an hour!!!

^

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Old 04-06-13, 11:03 AM   #134
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Re: Fast Food Workers Strike in NYC. What do we want??? $15 an hour!!!

Why the fascination with CEO pay? Many of these restaurants are probably independently owned and operated. While my experience in retail is in the C-store industry I would think the P&L is similar to a restaurant. There just isn't the money there to pay $15 per hour. And has anyone took into account they are already forcing many of these businesses to pay for the employees health care which is already draining much of the profit. Its not as easy as "just raise prices". This mentality is what is making it impossible for small business to compete now days.
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Old 04-06-13, 12:33 PM   #135
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Re: Fast Food Workers Strike in NYC. What do we want??? $15 an hour!!!

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Originally Posted by Sdallnct View Post
You do know that a CEO can't just snap a finger and get money, right? That all Fortune 500 companies have oversight for the CEO (board of directors) And that is before we even get to federal oversight. Not to mention if a stock company having to answer to shareholders. And that there are no secrets. Open an annual report and you will see what these folks make. Everyone knows.

You act like a CEO is some sort of King. He is just an employee and can be fired like any other.


Wow...
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Old 04-06-13, 01:23 PM   #136
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Re: Fast Food Workers Strike in NYC. What do we want??? $15 an hour!!!

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Originally Posted by BKenn01 View Post
Why the fascination with CEO pay? Many of these restaurants are probably independently owned and operated. While my experience in retail is in the C-store industry I would think the P&L is similar to a restaurant. There just isn't the money there to pay $15 per hour. And has anyone took into account they are already forcing many of these businesses to pay for the employees health care which is already draining much of the profit. Its not as easy as "just raise prices". This mentality is what is making it impossible for small business to compete now days.
Well if a private mom and pop store "funnels" profits to themselves then it is capitalism at its best. If a CEO of a private Fortune 500 company makes a lot of money, they are evil and it a known conspiracy to defraud.

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Wow...
Glad you were entertained and added to the discussion.
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Old 04-06-13, 01:41 PM   #137
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Re: Fast Food Workers Strike in NYC. What do we want??? $15 an hour!!!

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Originally Posted by Sdallnct View Post
Internship is but one example I gave. I could list many more options. But if your going to say no matter what options are available "some" just can't do it, then my answer would be, let's address those few "some" rather than change the entire system. Or just throw money at it.

I never said thise interns shouldn't get paid. My suggestion was use tax payer money to pay them while they learned.

And remember when you say those on the "outside"....most of us were on the "outside" at one point. Few people get life handed to them on a silver platter.

We are in agreement. Sort of. I have no problem anyone EARNING more money. But I'm against paying more "just because". But I'm very willing to help those that need it learn more/new skills to earn that money. That could be as simple as free day care so they could go to night school.




The why is because they get paid based on the impact they can have on the organization.

You can agree or disagree with the impact or how much impact. Or feel sometimes they are wrong to expect such impact, but that is the why.



I have no problem with helping small business.

I've been sort of fascinated by the Kickstarter program. But that is probably another thread.

But I also don't agree the big business hates their employees. Nor do I think small business treats employees better. In fact I could make an argument they don't treat them as well. Big business often has better benefits, more paid time off, better sick leave policy, abllity to report such things as harassment, more opportunity for advancement, different job opportunities, etc.

I'm still torn on the bailout thing. I think businesses/industries even jobs have a life cycle. And I think as an economy it changes and advances. Someone mentioned steel workers. Should we bring those jobs back? Or should we have other jobs? Should we tell Ford not to automate or use robots so they there can still be people manually painting a new car body? Even if the result is a lessor product? Or should we encourage advancement in the "hopes" it opens new industry, opportunity and jobs? And no I'm no neive to think eliminating a job always opens 10 more or even another one.


Some have been on the outside and some don't have a clue. I get this bit of a generalization tone as if those that don't make it out of the rut they're stuck in have some sort of control over the actual factors preventing them from succeeding. Some will succeed and some will fail. Those that fail, doesn't mean they didn't try or were lazy. The underlined tone I continue to get on here if from those that say if you don't do this or that then you're lazy and a loser and deserve what you get. It's apathy and it sucks.
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Old 04-06-13, 02:44 PM   #138
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Re: Fast Food Workers Strike in NYC. What do we want??? $15 an hour!!!

^^^I agree. When it comes to jobs, this forum is rather uncaring and uninformed.
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Old 04-06-13, 02:48 PM   #139
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Re: Fast Food Workers Strike in NYC. What do we want??? $15 an hour!!!

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Originally Posted by Sdallnct View Post
I'm still torn on the bailout thing. I think businesses/industries even jobs have a life cycle. And I think as an economy it changes and advances. Someone mentioned steel workers. Should we bring those jobs back? Or should we have other jobs? Should we tell Ford not to automate or use robots so they there can still be people manually painting a new car body? Even if the result is a lessor product? Or should we encourage advancement in the "hopes" it opens new industry, opportunity and jobs? And no I'm no neive to think eliminating a job always opens 10 more or even another one.
I'm all for a company to progress and advance. But. I think much of the "progress" is simply to replace a human being with a machine...and not progress at all. It's done simply to reduce labor costs. This is why America is still so juvenile and stupid. It refuses to view itself as a community, and instead is a selfish little brat. This will simply keep America behind in many sectors. Other countries are catching up. They will eventually surpass us, and at some point, America will be 3rd World Country it's always been laughing at.
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Old 04-06-13, 03:28 PM   #140
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Re: Fast Food Workers Strike in NYC. What do we want??? $15 an hour!!!

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Originally Posted by Sdallnct View Post
You do know that a CEO can't just snap a finger and get money, right? That all Fortune 500 companies have oversight for the CEO (board of directors) And that is before we even get to federal oversight. Not to mention if a stock company having to answer to shareholders. And that there are no secrets. Open an annual report and you will see what these folks make. Everyone knows.

You act like a CEO is some sort of King. He is just an employee and can be fired like any other.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Mabuse View Post


Wow...


Wow indeed.

I think the term corporation or firm should just be replaced with international criminal organization.
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Old 04-06-13, 03:43 PM   #141
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Re: Fast Food Workers Strike in NYC. What do we want??? $15 an hour!!!

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Originally Posted by Why So Blu? View Post
Some have been on the outside and some don't have a clue. I get this bit of a generalization tone as if those that don't make it out of the rut they're stuck in have some sort of control over the actual factors preventing them from succeeding. Some will succeed and some will fail. Those that fail, doesn't mean they didn't try or were lazy. The underlined tone I continue to get on here if from those that say if you don't do this or that then you're lazy and a loser and deserve what you get. It's apathy and it sucks.
Then we agree. It takes more than hard work. To get a job, to keep, to advance. Some is in the employees control, some is not.

I've had a plumber here for four days. They have had to hire a company/crew to dig a tunnel under my slab. Those guys worked their asses off. Though the ironic part is that he was telling me despite good pay (I didn't ask how much) he couldn't hire enough people. I don't know what that means or says, but did think it interesting.

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Originally Posted by DVD Polizei View Post
^^^I agree. When it comes to jobs, this forum is rather uncaring and uninformed.
I don't know...I wonder how many people here were just walked up on the street and offered a job.

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Originally Posted by DVD Polizei View Post
I'm all for a company to progress and advance. But. I think much of the "progress" is simply to replace a human being with a machine...and not progress at all. It's done simply to reduce labor costs. This is why America is still so juvenile and stupid. It refuses to view itself as a community, and instead is a selfish little brat. This will simply keep America behind in many sectors. Other countries are catching up. They will eventually surpass us, and at some point, America will be 3rd World Country it's always been laughing at.
Of course all business looks to cut expenses. And typically the largest expense is employee pay. So a business has to balance how to keep and retain the best employees while keeping expenses at a minimum.

Get it right and generally successful. Get it wrong...and not so much.
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Old 04-06-13, 03:59 PM   #142
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Re: Fast Food Workers Strike in NYC. What do we want??? $15 an hour!!!

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This is what I mean by the market becoming an end unto itself. You've answered the question of how CEOs are so highly compensated, but haven't touched the question of why they are so highly compensated.
It would be interesting to see what the pay is compared to what the various workers are in charge of as a percentage of the worth of the company. In other words, the McDonald cook wouldn't be in charge of much worth to the overall company, just some food at 1 particular restaurant. A manager would be responsible for all the food, workers, building, etc. The CEO would be responsible for the total worth of McDonalds.

I'm not saying that would be more fair, or it should dictate pay, but it would be an interesting way to look at it.

So what happened with the strike?
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Old 04-06-13, 04:45 PM   #143
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Re: Fast Food Workers Strike in NYC. What do we want??? $15 an hour!!!

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What you are saying is that the present day ceo is worth so much more than his counterpart 50 years ago.
This is my argument. They are not doing anything more. Yes, they are responsible for more than the average employee but that doesn't necessarily translate into working harder than the average employee. I'm sure it's different at every company and some CEOs work very hard I'm sure. Anyway, that wasn't the point.

The point is, why are these CEOs of today worth so much more than their workers than the CEOs of years past? Yes they are worth more simply based on the position they hold but why the shift? Why are they so much more valuable to a company now than they were many years ago? This is where the rest comes in.

Quote:
Wrong, they get what they get because they realized they can get away with it...What is true is they now funnnel ever greater percentages into their own pockets at the expense of everyone else in the company. So for the majority of workers their pay is flat and their buying power goes down. But the few are making and taking ever larger portions regardless as to how the company is actually doing. This is going to be a major crisis and is, to me, the biggest threat to our way of life today.
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Old 04-06-13, 07:05 PM   #144
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Re: Fast Food Workers Strike in NYC. What do we want??? $15 an hour!!!

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It would be interesting to see what the pay is compared to what the various workers are in charge of as a percentage of the worth of the company. In other words, the McDonald cook wouldn't be in charge of much worth to the overall company, just some food at 1 particular restaurant. A manager would be responsible for all the food, workers, building, etc. The CEO would be responsible for the total worth of McDonalds.

I'm not saying that would be more fair, or it should dictate pay, but it would be an interesting way to look at it.

So what happened with the strike?
I think this a big part of it. The mail room guy can be the best mail room guy on the planet. He/she can work their ass off. But is that going to have a measurable effect on the bottom line? But a CEO deciding to build a new building for a 1,000 employees in Atlanta or New York could be very significant.

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This is my argument. They are not doing anything more. Yes, they are responsible for more than the average employee but that doesn't necessarily translate into working harder than the average employee. I'm sure it's different at every company and some CEOs work very hard I'm sure. Anyway, that wasn't the point.

The point is, why are these CEOs of today worth so much more than their workers than the CEOs of years past? Yes they are worth more simply based on the position they hold but why the shift? Why are they so much more valuable to a company now than they were many years ago? This is where the rest comes in.
I think there are many factors. Not the least of which is litigation. Today (unlike in the past) a single class action lawsuit can be financially devastating. Even put a company out of business. Not to mention that criminal activity can now be brought against CEO's and exec's (not that Enron didn't force that, but still it is there and something that must be dealt with). Or more simply, as soon as a company decides to do something, lawyers are looking at to see how they can take advantage of it.

Also, for good or bad, the companies are much larger and much farther reach (often global).

Again, not sure why "hard work" is consistently brought up. Of course CEO's have help. They get input from others and such, but as they say "the buck stops with them". The scale of decisions at that level are sort of amazing. For example, if the company has profit sharing, they are often the one's that give the final ok. Sure there is help and guidelines, but again they may be the one to "sign off" on it. That is pretty significant compared to the "average worker".
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Old 04-06-13, 07:29 PM   #145
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Re: Fast Food Workers Strike in NYC. What do we want??? $15 an hour!!!

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I think there are many factors. Not the least of which is litigation. Today (unlike in the past) a single class action lawsuit can be financially devastating. Even put a company out of business. Not to mention that criminal activity can now be brought against CEO's and exec's (not that Enron didn't force that, but still it is there and something that must be dealt with). Or more simply, as soon as a company decides to do something, lawyers are looking at to see how they can take advantage of it.

Also, for good or bad, the companies are much larger and much farther reach (often global).

Again, not sure why "hard work" is consistently brought up. Of course CEO's have help. They get input from others and such, but as they say "the buck stops with them". The scale of decisions at that level are sort of amazing. For example, if the company has profit sharing, they are often the one's that give the final ok. Sure there is help and guidelines, but again they may be the one to "sign off" on it. That is pretty significant compared to the "average worker".
CEOs definitely have more of the burden when it comes to the average worker. They absolutely should get more of the chunk of cheese that's coming in. Fifty times the average worker? Sure. One hundred times the average worker? Maybe. Three hundred times the average worker? Absolutely not.

As for the rest of your argument, I don't understand what it has to do with what I was talking about.
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Old 04-06-13, 09:24 PM   #146
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Re: Fast Food Workers Strike in NYC. What do we want??? $15 an hour!!!

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Old 04-07-13, 08:20 AM   #147
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Re: Fast Food Workers Strike in NYC. What do we want??? $15 an hour!!!

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CEOs definitely have more of the burden when it comes to the average worker. They absolutely should get more of the chunk of cheese that's coming in. Fifty times the average worker? Sure. One hundred times the average worker? Maybe. Three hundred times the average worker? Absolutely not.

As for the rest of your argument, I don't understand what it has to do with what I was talking about.
It's not just about getting more of the chunk of cheese coming in. It's about what the individual did to bring that chunk of cheese in.

Tho I do find it ironic. Many people blamed the needed bailouts for like GM because when times were good, they gave "the average worker" way to much and committed to that for the life of the employees.

You can over pay a CEO or execs and when times get tough reduce it or even let some go. Would you suggest the same for the average worker?

A few years ago my company switched from giving a total percent raise in my annual salary (if I earned one at all) to partial increase in salary and partial cash bonus. So while I technically get the same money, my salary doesn't go up near as much. Why would they do this? Because in tough times it will be easier to reduce or even drop the cash bonus and salaries won't be as high as they would be.

This is a trend even with exec's and CEO's. one time cash bonuses. No long term commitment and ability to be flexible when times get tough.

As for your suggestion of capping CEO pay, I'm against that. Businesses should be free to run their business as they see fit (within the law of course).
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Old 04-07-13, 09:16 AM   #148
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Re: Fast Food Workers Strike in NYC. What do we want??? $15 an hour!!!

What's cheaper? Paying fast food employees $15/hr? or installing some of these:

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Old 04-07-13, 09:28 AM   #149
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Re: Fast Food Workers Strike in NYC. What do we want??? $15 an hour!!!

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Would the fine Senator also argue that average worker pay should go down when CEO pay goes down in that company?

http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-...iddleHeadlines
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Old 04-07-13, 09:36 AM   #150
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Re: Fast Food Workers Strike in NYC. What do we want??? $15 an hour!!!

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What's cheaper? Paying fast food employees $15/hr? or installing some of these:

Pretty much the airlines showed which is cheaper. Unless something unusual 90% of the time I'm forced to check in at the airport through a Kiosk.
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