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Drug testing for welfare

Old 03-05-13, 04:52 AM
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Drug testing for welfare

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Old 03-05-13, 05:10 AM
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Re: Drug testing for welfare

Originally Posted by junglalien View Post

Originally Posted by Barack Obama
If there's even one thing we can do, if there's just one life we can save—we've got an obligation to try.
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Old 03-05-13, 05:57 AM
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Re: Drug testing for welfare

That graphic might be more compelling if it didn't devolve into the typical looney "you're a racist, you want people to die, and you love rich people" crap.
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Old 03-05-13, 06:07 AM
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Re: Drug testing for welfare

And how many lab techs are employed by that $5.8 million. It's a job stimulus program, and judged by THOSE standards, much more successful than the hundreds of millions paid to a battery company so workers could sit around and play cards in a factory that didn't actually make any batteries.
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Old 03-05-13, 06:18 AM
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Re: Drug testing for welfare

In Florida, Gov. Rick Scott ramrodded welfare drug testing as one of his first policies in office.

But who owned the contracted testing clinics? His WIFE. Ownership transferred from him to her before he took office.

Classy.
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Old 03-05-13, 06:41 AM
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Re: Drug testing for welfare

I don't believe these numbers at all, since 21 out of 51000 is only 0.04% by my math almost 100x less than the 2 to 3% failures reported in the media which would be 1000s of failed tests. Also, if you were an active drug user, would you voluntarily take a drug test? That would skew the numbers significantly.
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Old 03-05-13, 06:54 AM
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Re: Drug testing for welfare

Here are articles that show that the numbers for Florida in that graphic would seem to be fabricated:

http://digitaljournal.com/article/323241
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/18/us...rug-tests.html

Now, even if the drug testing program had been re-implemented (the judge's order to stop since lifted, which I have no idea if it was or not), it cites a number of failures 5 times higher than the graphic indicated and losses to the state of only $46,000.
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Old 03-05-13, 06:58 AM
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Re: Drug testing for welfare

No one should be drug tested until every single goverment official and employee is first.
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Old 03-05-13, 07:54 AM
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Re: Drug testing for welfare

What a ridiculous concept. Let's keep the meth users off welfare so they can rob and kill people for money OR just become alcoholics.
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Old 03-05-13, 07:58 AM
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Re: Drug testing for welfare

Hmmm, it appears that according to the graphic that this program is working. People are voluntarily getting off drugs because they know they will be tested.

Originally Posted by arminius View Post
No one should be drug tested until every single goverment official and employee is first.
I like that idea, but officials are elected, so I don't see that happening.
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Old 03-05-13, 08:15 AM
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Re: Drug testing for welfare

I live in Arizona. It's hard to find good people who are NOT drug users. It's either the location, or just because I'm getting older. If I stop 100 people out here in the burbs this morning, I guarantee you that a lot of people will have something in their system.

I'm assuming that when a drug user knows they're going to be tested, they do whatever detox is necessary to pass the test.
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Old 03-05-13, 08:27 AM
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Re: Drug testing for welfare

Originally Posted by troystiffler View Post
I live in Arizona. It's hard to find good people who are NOT drug users. It's either the location, or just because I'm getting older. If I stop 100 people out here in the burbs this morning, I guarantee you that a lot of people will have something in their system.

I'm assuming that when a drug user knows they're going to be tested, they do whatever detox is necessary to pass the test.
Either way the program isn't effective.
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Old 03-05-13, 08:31 AM
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Re: Drug testing for welfare

All that graphic shows (if the data is true) is that there is 1 dumb drug abuser in AZ (per 87,000 applicants), and 21 (out of 51,000) in FL. I'm not implying that any of the other applicants abuse drugs.
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Old 03-05-13, 08:57 AM
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Re: Drug testing for welfare

Originally Posted by kvrdave View Post
Hmmm, it appears that according to the graphic that this program is working. People are voluntarily getting off drugs because they know they will be tested.



I like that idea, but officials are elected, so I don't see that happening.
They can just publish the info so people can use that the next time they vote. I mean really who can do more damage, some guy at Home Depot or a Senator?
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Old 03-05-13, 09:17 AM
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Re: Drug testing for welfare

Originally Posted by sracer View Post
All that graphic shows (if the data is true) is that there is 1 dumb drug abuser in AZ (per 87,000 applicants), and 21 (out of 51,000) in FL. I'm not implying that any of the other applicants abuse drugs.
The data isn't true. Also, in the first implementation of the drug testing program in Florida, they ran the program for about four months and tested only just shy of 4100 people, with 108 failures. So again, clearly the "21" cited in the graphic is fictive. The articles that cite the numbers I cited were written in 2/2012.

So, let's assume that the judicial stoppage of the program was lifted the day after the New York Times article I linked was written. So, that would mean that Florida tested an additional 45,000+ people in about 12 months when they only tested 4100 people in the first four months. That also seems highly unlikely. Plus, they would have incurred losses of millions of dollars in total when they only lost about $46,000 in the first six months. Again, don't think so.

But guess what, the injunction against the program that was put in place on 10/24/11 was not lifted in February, 2012. It was affirmed. So, basically, the numbers for Florida quoted above certainly appear to be completely fabricated.

http://www.politifact.com/florida/pr...re-recipients/

This link also affirms that the total number of failures was 108 in the first four months, five times the "21" cited above.

I'm hardly saying that the Florida welfare drug testing program was a rousing financial success. Clearly it wasn't. I just don't care for people posting some bullshit infographic they saw on the Internet as fact.
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Old 03-05-13, 09:33 AM
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Re: Drug testing for welfare

Originally Posted by CRM114 View Post
What a ridiculous concept. Let's keep the meth users off welfare so they can rob and kill people for money OR just become alcoholics.
My favorite is that the rational for denying welfare to a drug user is to protect their children, at least that's what lawmakers were saying in Kansas. That the money needs to go to the children, not drugs. So I guess it's better to just give them no money, and leave the child with a broke drug using parent? What rational policy.

I do enjoy how the Dems added an amendment to require public officials to be drug tested as well. But we all know how that will go.

They had attempted to expand it even further to include officials at any company receiving state subsidies or grants. Unfortunately that part was axed.

And of course I feel obligated to launch into my rant about how all drug testing is BS and for the most part only punishes marijuana users. I'll just leave it at that - preaching to the choir on this forum I think. I'll only add that it simply costs $40 and an internet connection to defraud a drug test.

This sort of program is indefensible to me.
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Old 03-05-13, 09:45 AM
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Re: Drug testing for welfare

Originally Posted by jfoobar View Post
The data isn't true. Also, in the first implementation of the drug testing program in Florida, they ran the program for about four months and tested only just shy of 4100 people, with 108 failures. So again, clearly the "21" cited in the graphic is fictive. The articles that cite the numbers I cited were written in 2/2012.

So, let's assume that the judicial stoppage of the program was lifted the day after the New York Times article I linked was written. So, that would mean that Florida tested an additional 45,000+ people in about 12 months when they only tested 4100 people in the first four months. That also seems highly unlikely. Plus, they would have incurred losses of millions of dollars in total when they only lost about $46,000 in the first six months. Again, don't think so.

But guess what, the injunction against the program that was put in place on 10/24/11 was not lifted in February, 2012. It was affirmed. So, basically, the numbers for Florida quoted above certainly appear to be completely fabricated.

http://www.politifact.com/florida/pr...re-recipients/

This link also affirms that the total number of failures was 108 in the first four months, five times the "21" cited above.

I'm hardly saying that the Florida welfare drug testing program was a rousing financial success. Clearly it wasn't. I just don't care for people posting some bullshit infographic they saw on the Internet as fact.
Now, that's a little harsh. We all know that fabricated news is the BEST kind, because it NEVER conflicts with your preconceived notions.
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Old 03-05-13, 10:25 AM
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Re: Drug testing for welfare

Originally Posted by Nausicaa View Post
My favorite is that the rational for denying welfare to a drug user is to protect their children, at least that's what lawmakers were saying in Kansas. That the money needs to go to the children, not drugs. So I guess it's better to just give them no money, and leave the child with a broke drug using parent? What rational policy.

I do enjoy how the Dems added an amendment to require public officials to be drug tested as well. But we all know how that will go.

They had attempted to expand it even further to include officials at any company receiving state subsidies or grants. Unfortunately that part was axed.

And of course I feel obligated to launch into my rant about how all drug testing is BS and for the most part only punishes marijuana users. I'll just leave it at that - preaching to the choir on this forum I think. I'll only add that it simply costs $40 and an internet connection to defraud a drug test.

This sort of program is indefensible to me.
I don't know. This is actually why I am in favor of legalizing child pornography. Would you rather have these people actually act on their desires and become full blown pedophiles?
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Old 03-05-13, 10:42 AM
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Re: Drug testing for welfare

I assume similar tests are given to people who work on farms, corporations, and any other entity getting a government subsidy?
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Old 03-05-13, 11:04 AM
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Re: Drug testing for welfare

Originally Posted by kvrdave View Post
I don't know. This is actually why I am in favor of legalizing child pornography. Would you rather have these people actually act on their desires and become full blown pedophiles?
The consumers of child pornography and people who actually act on pedophilic impulses don't overlap as much as you think.
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Old 03-05-13, 11:12 AM
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Re: Drug testing for welfare

To me, I liken this issue in some ways to the whole voter ID initiative. In both cases, you have a broad and ethical sentiment that, especially when considered broadly, would likely enjoy pretty substantial public support.

Should the government make some effort to prevent people from voting on behalf of others?

Should the government try and prevent people who spend money on illegal drugs from receiving welfare funds?

Put this simply, I think you would find majorities of taxpayers who would say "yes" to both questions. The reason is simple. A "yes" answer to either question is an ethically defensible and appropriate response.

However, when you get into the painful details of both, neither seems like such a wonderful idea anymore in terms of return on time, effort and money spent.
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Old 03-05-13, 11:27 AM
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Re: Drug testing for welfare

Originally Posted by troystiffler View Post
I live in Arizona. It's hard to find good people who are NOT drug users. It's either the location, or just because I'm getting older. If I stop 100 people out here in the burbs this morning, I guarantee you that a lot of people will have something in their system.

I'm assuming that when a drug user knows they're going to be tested, they do whatever detox is necessary to pass the test.
I've been told that Arizona is full of illegals, so this makes sense to me.
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Old 03-05-13, 12:08 PM
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Re: Drug testing for welfare

Originally Posted by jfoobar View Post
The consumers of child pornography and people who actually act on pedophilic impulses don't overlap as much as you think.
Hmmmm, how do you know how much I think the two groups overlap?
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Old 03-05-13, 01:12 PM
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Re: Drug testing for welfare

Originally Posted by kvrdave View Post
Hmmmm, how do you know how much I think the two groups overlap?
Call it gut instinct. Perv.
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Old 03-05-13, 01:48 PM
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Re: Drug testing for welfare

Originally Posted by Supermallet View Post
I've been told that Arizona is full of illegals, so this makes sense to me.
I don't know any illegals. I do know a lot of people who pretend to be normal, but are coke heads, severe alcoholics, pill addicts, etc. Meth is too icky and obvious and I run and hide from those people.

It's my experience that more and more people are like that. People are just messed up. Either more and more people are using drugs. Or these people have always flooded blue-collar life and I'm just getting older and more understanding of how it works.

Much like Reno, a lot of fucked up lives end up in Phoenix. You know, you move to Phoenix because you really messed up somewhere else. We moved here because my parents needed regular jobs and thought it would be the best place to get jobs (it was booming in the late 90's). The weather is nice and there's plenty of comfy suburbia.

Or, fuck, for all I know, my mom was withholding from her pimp and my dad accidently killed a guy. I'm very positive and oblivious to such things.

Anyways, I laugh at the idea that 1 in 87000 people in Arizona are normalized drug users. My arbitrary personal experience guess is closer to 1 in 25. Maybe 1 in 10.

But, yea, if the test isn't catching people, maybe we should lean up and stop testing. With that kind of number, it doesn't seem like it's doing anything progressive.
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