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Are Death Panels Here Already?

Old 03-04-13, 07:07 AM
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Are Death Panels Here Already?

Well, I had to give it a political tone.

http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/E...d/-/index.html
Elderly woman dies when nursing home staff refuses CPR

An elderly woman being cared for at a California retirement facility died following the refusal of a nurse at the facility to perform CPR on the woman after she collapsed, authorities said.

When Lorraine Bayless, an 87-year-old resident of Glenwood Gardens, Bakersfield, collapsed at the facility around 11 a.m. Tuesday, a staff member called 911 but refused to give the woman CPR, according to a recording of the call.

In refusing the 911 dispatcher's insistence that she perform CPR, the nurse can be heard telling the dispatcher that it was against the retirement facility's policy to perform CPR.

During the exchange between the nurse and the dispatcher, the dispatcher can be heard saying, "I don't understand why you're not willing to help this patient.''

An ambulance arrived several minutes after the call and took Bayless to a hospital, where she was later pronounced dead. She has been identified as a resident of the home's independent facility, which is separate from the skilled and assisted nursing facility.

The retirement facility released a statement extending its condolences to the family and said its "practice is to immediately call emergency medical personnel for assistance and to wait with the individual needing attention until such personnel arrives.''

The statement also said a "thorough internal review of the matter'' would be conducted.

A call to the facility by The Associated Press seeking more information on the incident was not immediately returned.
Most states have laws requiring automatic defibrillators and personnel trained in CPR in schools, health clubs and some other public venues. Since cardiac arrest in common in the elderly, why not retirement homes? Why don't states (or the Feds) require this in retirement homes vs condoning letting old folks die while waiting for the ambulance? I will point out the obvious; it is cheaper if they die. But I hope that is not the reason.

Many retirement homes tout that they have medical staff onsite. Yeah, and they watch you die and don't do shit.
(I would understand if she were in assisted living and had a DNR. She was in independent living and apparently doing OK until she seized up.)
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Old 03-04-13, 07:23 AM
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Re: Are Death Panels Here Already?

I have absolutely no problem with this. Giving CPR probably opens them up for lawsuits. Just like anything medical related, litigation is a probably a huge part of staying in business. People go there to die. When things are so bad, they can't take care of themselves. Yet people sue when their parents die.

I dunno. It's kind of like asking mall security to run down an armed thief.
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Old 03-04-13, 07:24 AM
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Re: Are Death Panels Here Already?

Oh, and I'm pretty sure that Obama is directly responsible for this.
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Old 03-04-13, 07:44 AM
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Re: Are Death Panels Here Already?

Q. Can I be sued for providing CPR or First Aid?

A. You are protected by the Good Samaritan Law as long as you do what a normal prudent person would do in an emergency situation. This means: Don't go weird and try to perform invasive procedures, such as cutting open the throat and sticking in a straw to help someone breathe or doing compressions over the throat. Unfortunately you can be sued, but not successfully, as long as you only do what is within your scope of training.

Remember, if some one is not in your care, you must ask permission of the responsive victim if you can help. If they are unresponsive, you have implied consent.
http://www.cprrescuers.com/cprfacts.html

No lay rescuer has ever been successfully sued for attempting to perform CPR on a victim of cardiac arrest.

If that's the case then why wait until emergency medical personnel arrive since time is of the essence?
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Old 03-04-13, 08:06 AM
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Re: Are Death Panels Here Already?

Hmmm. Assuming the law makes them litigation proof... Was CPR just too icky? With a $30 disposable resuscitator, that shouldn't be a problem.
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Old 03-04-13, 08:48 AM
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Re: Are Death Panels Here Already?

Originally Posted by wishbone View Post
. If they are unresponsive, you have implied consent.
There are fraternities with similar rules.
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Old 03-04-13, 08:52 AM
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Re: Are Death Panels Here Already?

Could be that the patient had a living will and didn't want such assistance, but I'm guessing they would have said that at the time. It would be strange to me if a retirement home had that as an all-encompassing policy. Read the fine print, or have a nice young lad read it to you.
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Old 03-04-13, 08:58 AM
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Re: Are Death Panels Here Already?

Wasn't a "nursing home".

The executive director of Glenwood Gardens, Jeffrey Toomer, defended the nurse's actions, saying she did indeed follow policy.

"In the event of a health emergency at this independent living community our practice is to immediately call emergency medical personnel for assistance and to wait with the individual needing attention until such personnel arrives," Toomer said in a written statement. "That is the protocol we followed."

Toomer offered condolences to the woman's family and said a "thorough internal review" of the incident would be conducted.

He told KGET-TV that residents of the home's independent living community are informed of the policy and agree to it when they move in. He said the policy does not apply at the adjacent assisted living and skilled nursing facilities.

A call to the facility by The Associated Press seeking more information was not immediately returned.

Shitty policy regardless, though common.
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Old 03-04-13, 09:04 AM
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Re: Are Death Panels Here Already?

They're probably hoping the "independent" folk collapse, becoming comatose, and then are transferred to the skilled nursing side, getting a shitload more money.
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Old 03-04-13, 09:04 AM
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Re: Are Death Panels Here Already?

Seems OK to me. My mother was in a nursing home that always had an RN on duty and the occasional doctor milling about. I wouldn't expect that same level of care in the assisted living facility.
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Old 03-04-13, 09:06 AM
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Re: Are Death Panels Here Already?

She's still a shitty person.
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Old 03-04-13, 10:09 AM
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Re: Are Death Panels Here Already?

Originally Posted by troystiffler View Post
I have absolutely no problem with this. Giving CPR probably opens them up for lawsuits. Just like anything medical related, litigation is a probably a huge part of staying in business. People go there to die. When things are so bad, they can't take care of themselves. Yet people sue when their parents die.

I dunno. It's kind of like asking mall security to run down an armed thief.
Yet other classes of people are "protected" and establishments have a legal obligation to help them (school children, patrons of health clubs, and people at certain other public venues). In many states, even dentists are required to have the equipment. But old farts aren't a class that the state cares to protect.

Current Red Cross thinking is "compression-only" CPR for sudden cardiac arrest, and, generally, for "bystander" CPR. Combined breathing and compression is only for certain situations, by trained personnel, with a breathing tube. If ALL conditions aren't met, compression only.

She was in the independent living facility. They don't go there to die; they go there when taking care of a house is too much. They migrate to assisted living or skilled nursing to die, depending on what happens to them.

If the lady had a DNR, the DNR fairy would be standing over her shooing the EMTs away when they arrived too late.
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Old 03-04-13, 10:15 AM
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Re: Are Death Panels Here Already?

My dad will be 87 in another couple of months and he has an advance directive specifying no heroic measures. My mother, who died at 77, was just the opposite. She wanted all the stops pulled out, every time, up until she finally agreed to go into hospice a couple of months before her death.

Without knowing this lady's wishes, it's hard to comment, but my take? She was 87 years old. She'd lived her life. A lot of people who get coded at that age just come halfway back, and spend the rest of their days hooked up to tubes and wires that may keep their heart beating and their lungs expanding, but in no way equal "life."
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Old 03-04-13, 10:20 AM
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Re: Are Death Panels Here Already?

You have to pretty much take care of yourself in "indepent living" also called "residential". No one will help you getting dressed, shower or getting out of bed. No one will inform you of meal time. If you need help with anything you don't qualify for independent/residential. You have to move up to intermediate nursing care. Independent is the cheapest care. I'm sure policy differs among facilities. You may not be eligible for the house doctor, they may not even have a medical chart on you. The only real difference from living at home is the cooking and housekeeping is done for you.
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Old 03-04-13, 10:21 AM
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Re: Are Death Panels Here Already?


LINK
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Old 03-04-13, 10:25 AM
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Re: Are Death Panels Here Already?

Originally Posted by RichC2 View Post
She's still a shitty person.
That's no way to speak about the dead.
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Old 03-04-13, 10:29 AM
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Re: Are Death Panels Here Already?

Originally Posted by Vibiana View Post
My dad will be 87 in another couple of months and he has an advance directive specifying no heroic measures. My mother, who died at 77, was just the opposite. She wanted all the stops pulled out, every time, up until she finally agreed to go into hospice a couple of months before her death.

Without knowing this lady's wishes, it's hard to comment, but my take? She was 87 years old. She'd lived her life. A lot of people who get coded at that age just come halfway back, and spend the rest of their days hooked up to tubes and wires that may keep their heart beating and their lungs expanding, but in no way equal "life."
There is no indication she had a DNR. More the opposite as they called 911 and she was transported. All that would have happened at the hospital, but she was already dead.

"Jump starting" her at the retirement home might have given her a chance. Red Cross claims 67% for immediate compression-only CPR and automatic external defibrillator (AED) declining to 0% at the 12 minute mark.

The state requires some facilities to aid their patrons but lets others kill their patrons through neglect (and I accept a DNR as benign neglect, that is the person's choice). This is about neither the state nor the facility giving a damn about some people.
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Old 03-04-13, 10:31 AM
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Re: Are Death Panels Here Already?

Originally Posted by rw2516 View Post
You have to pretty much take care of yourself in "indepent living" also called "residential". No one will help you getting dressed, shower or getting out of bed. No one will inform you of meal time. If you need help with anything you don't qualify for independent/residential. You have to move up to intermediate nursing care. Independent is the cheapest care. I'm sure policy differs among facilities. You may not be eligible for the house doctor, they may not even have a medical chart on you. The only real difference from living at home is the cooking and housekeeping is done for you.
If only she could have dragged herself to the gym. Health clubs are required to render assistance under these circumstances.
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Old 03-04-13, 11:25 AM
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Re: Are Death Panels Here Already?

Originally Posted by troystiffler View Post
I dunno. It's kind of like asking mall security to run down an armed thief.
No, it really isn't.

I am torn on this one. For one, I think any "reasonable person" would expect the NURSE employed by an assisted living facility to be both capable and willing to perform CPR on a resident, most especially after being instructed to by a 911 dispatcher. Again, this is a trained medical professional, not some guy who picks up dirty dishes or mows the lawn.

On the other hand, if the place really did have a policy against it and the residents were made aware of it when they moved in, I don't see any real liability issues here.

My question is ultimately this: just how common is it for other facilities of this type to have this sort of no-CPR policy?
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Old 03-04-13, 11:30 AM
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Re: Are Death Panels Here Already?

She lived in Bakersfield. She's better off now.
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Old 03-04-13, 11:37 AM
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Re: Are Death Panels Here Already?

Originally Posted by OldDude View Post
She was in the independent living facility. They don't go there to die; they go there when taking care of a house is too much. They migrate to assisted living or skilled nursing to die, depending on what happens to them.
So the same rules apply that apply if she were living on her own. She dies waiting for the 911 responders to arrive.

Family should take these things into account if they are that worried about it.
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Old 03-04-13, 11:44 AM
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Re: Are Death Panels Here Already?

Yeah, she should be glad she died with someone standing over her waiting for emergency response instead of dying at home alone.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/Pn0WdJx-Wkw" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
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Old 03-04-13, 12:04 PM
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Re: Are Death Panels Here Already?

Originally Posted by wishbone View Post
Yeah, she should be glad she died with someone standing over her waiting for emergency response instead of dying at home alone.
She should have gone to a Christian Science nursing home. At least they'd pray fervently over her.
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Old 03-04-13, 01:02 PM
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Re: Are Death Panels Here Already?

Shitty nurse yeah the old lady might have died anyways but how can u let a person die knowing u had the power to maybe help, fuck the politics of the place, who cares if it was Obama fault or if she wasn't Christian or only had a year left. Its the morally right thing to do simple
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Old 03-04-13, 01:19 PM
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Re: Are Death Panels Here Already?

Originally Posted by wishbone View Post
Yeah, she should be glad she died with someone standing over her waiting for emergency response instead of dying at home alone.
IF she was living at home and keeled over on her front lawn with me walking down the street, that's exactly what would have happened. What's your point? Has it been established that this person even knew CPR? A "staff member" could have been anyone. Most of the staff members at my mother's nursing home didn't know shit about medicine. They are there to help people get out of bed and change their clothes.
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