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The 2016 Presidential Election thread - it's over? edition

Old 07-09-16, 04:42 PM
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Re: The 2016 Presidential Election thread: Great Scott!!

Originally Posted by kvrdave View Post
I suppose it is perspective.
Clinton is objectively closer to Sanders on policy. The Democratic Party is closer to Sanders on policy. Those are facts.

But you can continue to focus almost exclusively on the flawed candidates -- their personalities and histories -- and to give short shrift to policy. That's what low-info voters tend to do, by the way. A person who isn't a low-info voter can fall into the same traps as them.
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Old 07-09-16, 04:49 PM
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Re: The 2016 Presidential Election thread: Great Scott!!

Here's what Paul Ryan and the rest of the GOP should do and say to Trump at the convention.

Yes, I was a fool to think you were ready...You're unworthy!

Last edited by Ghostbuster; 07-09-16 at 04:55 PM.
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Old 07-09-16, 05:56 PM
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Re: The 2016 Presidential Election thread: Great Scott!!

Originally Posted by Ghostbuster View Post
Clinton is objectively closer to Sanders on policy. The Democratic Party is closer to Sanders on policy. Those are facts.

But you can continue to focus almost exclusively on the flawed candidates -- their personalities and histories -- and to give short shrift to policy. That's what low-info voters tend to do, by the way. A person who isn't a low-info voter can fall into the same traps as them.
I have no idea what Clinton and Sanders being closer to each other on policy has to do with a discussion about low information voters, partisans, and the like. Care to expand on that?

If one's greatest concern was military interventionism, which candidate would be best and why?

If one's greatest concern was stopping free trade agreements, which candidate would be best and why?

If one's greatest concern was corporate and foreign money influencing our government, which candidate would be the best and why?

If one had the audacity to believe that the Saudis are not actually our allies, which candidate would be the best and why?

Are there no issues that a reasonable person could pick Trump over Hillary on?

Also, do low information voters or well informed voters care more what politicians say or what they do and why?
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Old 07-09-16, 06:05 PM
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Re: The 2016 Presidential Election thread: Great Scott!!

If one's greatest concern is nominees to the Supreme Court, which candidate would be best and why? Between the two of them, I side with Clinton all day long/ We can stand another 4 years of Clintonian self-indulgence, since Congress won't let her do that much anyway. We can't stand 2 or 3 conservative appointments to SCOTUS which will affect us for decades.
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Old 07-09-16, 06:25 PM
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Re: The 2016 Presidential Election thread: Great Scott!!

Absolutely. If SCROTUS is the greatest concern, there is no choice but Clinton.
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Old 07-09-16, 06:26 PM
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Re: The 2016 Presidential Election thread: Great Scott!!

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Old 07-09-16, 06:35 PM
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Re: The 2016 Presidential Election thread: Great Scott!!

What would really suck is people voting for one of these lesser of two evils based only on SCOTUS appointment possibilities and then they all last longer than 4 more years.
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Old 07-09-16, 06:51 PM
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Re: The 2016 Presidential Election thread: Great Scott!!

Originally Posted by WCChiCubsFan View Post
I've posted it before and I'll post it again, the Supreme Court appointments the next President will make are the most important issue in this election.

Looking at the list Donald posted earlier I certainly don't want any of them on the Court.
I don't like that argument.

Thinking that the world is going to stand still while we sort out our domestic squabbles is short-sighted.

Back in 2000, the election was between Bush and Gore. Bush won and gave us two wars and the Patriot Act. I don't think that would have been Gore's response.
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Old 07-09-16, 06:52 PM
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Re: The 2016 Presidential Election thread: Great Scott!!

Originally Posted by kvrdave View Post
I have no idea what Clinton and Sanders being closer to each other on policy has to do with a discussion about low information voters, partisans, and the like. Care to expand on that?

If one's greatest concern was...which candidate would be best and why?
The discussion was about whether Clinton and Trump are equally bad candidates for president.

I'm not going to spend an hour or more writing an essay in response to questions posed by someone whose mind appears to be made up. But the key to answering the questions would be to think about them in terms of the candidate and her/his party rather than in terms of the candidate alone.

Yes, a reasonable person could prefer Trump and the GOP on certain issues. For example, I'm pro-life, and the Democratic Party generally is not. But unlike someone such as my mother, I'm not a single-issue voter. I also think the GOP's general approach on the abortion issue is questionable.

Last edited by Ghostbuster; 07-09-16 at 06:59 PM.
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Old 07-09-16, 07:05 PM
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Re: The 2016 Presidential Election thread: Great Scott!!

My point was that one could be worse than the other and yet both could still not be good enough to vote for. That's the point of the varieties of STDs. Some are a little worse than others. There are good reasons to choose neither. The only reasons I can see to actually vote for either is if you are either simply a partisan, or you are a single issue voter. Neither deserves a vote based on their current resumes, I'd say, but that is obviously subjective.

And that's good. Don't respond to me if the only reason you are doing it is to try to make a convert to your religion, becasue I get that same response from the Mormons and JWs after a few visits. And especially don't respond to me if your mind is made up at this point and nothing could ever change your mind no matter what. Because I'm not advocating one over the other. I'm advocating why you shouldn't vote for either.

And my sister is a single issue abortion voter as well. Until she told me that, I didn't actually believe in a single voter issue voter other than as a hypothetical. And I'd agree on the GOP approach to abortion and damn near everything else.
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Old 07-09-16, 07:21 PM
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Re: The 2016 Presidential Election thread: Great Scott!!

As a pro-life person, I also am against capital punishment, factory farming, and certain other things. And I'm a vegetarian. So my perspective is broader and in my opinion more consistent than either the GOP or Democratic one.

My mother thinks the abortion issue trumps all others because it is a matter of life and death. She always votes Republican. But this election cycle, she will supposedly only vote on down-ballot candidates. She says she cannot vote for either Clinton or Trump in good conscience.
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Old 07-09-16, 07:29 PM
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Re: The 2016 Presidential Election thread: Great Scott!!

Listen to your mother, dammit. You're a good boy!

That's awesome. My sister is for religious reasons, but can't actually defend that. It's annoying. I know her well enough that she simply can't imagine how it could be a viable choice for anyone as she sits in her huge house on a 10,000 acre ranch.

Spoiler:
and because I'm high, it reminded me of this. But she isn't a cow. But it's funny, so I thought I'd share. If weed were my single issue, I'd be fucked.

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Old 07-09-16, 07:41 PM
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Re: The 2016 Presidential Election thread: Great Scott!!

Originally Posted by kvrdave View Post
My point was that one could be worse than the other and yet both could still not be good enough to vote for. That's the point of the varieties of STDs. Some are a little worse than others. There are good reasons to choose neither. The only reasons I can see to actually vote for either is if you are either simply a partisan, or you are a single issue voter. Neither deserves a vote based on their current resumes, I'd say, but that is obviously subjective.
The problem with that argument is that either Clinton or Trump WILL be president, and if one is doing a cost/benefit analysis, one is likely to be worse than the other. There is no way to reject both candidates and start the process over. If that were possible, I think most Americans, me included, would vote for a do-over.
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Old 07-09-16, 08:59 PM
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Re: The 2016 Presidential Election thread: Great Scott!!

Originally Posted by Ghostbuster View Post
I'm not going to spend an hour or more writing an essay in response to questions posed by someone whose mind appears to be made up.
That didn't last long.
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Old 07-10-16, 11:40 AM
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Re: The 2016 Presidential Election thread: Great Scott!!

Originally Posted by Nick Danger View Post
I don't like that argument.

Thinking that the world is going to stand still while we sort out our domestic squabbles is short-sighted.

Back in 2000, the election was between Bush and Gore. Bush won and gave us two wars and the Patriot Act. I don't think that would have been Gore's response.
Your response lacks any depth of thought.

It assumes that I'm saying the SC appointments are the only issue because I'm saying it is the most important. That is just faulty reasoning on your part.

There are many important issues at sake in this election but the SC appointments are the most important because they could affect this country for 25+ years.

By the way, Gore most certainly would have taken us into the Afghanistan war but probably not Iraq.
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Old 07-10-16, 12:39 PM
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Re: The 2016 Presidential Election thread: Great Scott!!

Originally Posted by WCChiCubsFan View Post
By the way, Gore most certainly would have taken us into the Afghanistan war but probably not Iraq.
I don't see how any President, except maybe Ralph Nader, wouldn't've taken us into war in Afghanistan. Maybe Gore would've executed the war differently -- though keep in mind the President is presented options by the Pentagon which he has to choose from -- but not going after the country giving al Qaeda a safe haven isn't something anyone would've considered.
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Old 07-10-16, 01:16 PM
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Re: The 2016 Presidential Election thread: Great Scott!!

It's been 15 years since 9/11. We are certainly feeling the effects of the war in Iraq and the Patriot Act. I have no doubt we will still be feeling them for another ten years. Lots of presidential decisions will have a large impact on us for 25 years into the future.

I don't trust Trump to handle any of them well.
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Old 07-10-16, 01:20 PM
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Re: The 2016 Presidential Election thread: Great Scott!!

Originally Posted by Sean O'Hara View Post
I don't see how any President, except maybe Ralph Nader, wouldn't've taken us into war in Afghanistan. Maybe Gore would've executed the war differently -- though keep in mind the President is presented options by the Pentagon which he has to choose from -- but not going after the country giving al Qaeda a safe haven isn't something anyone would've considered.
I agree. I was in favor of the war at the time, and I knew enough of military history to realize that nobody has ever taken Afghanistan by force.
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Old 07-10-16, 11:37 PM
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Re: The 2016 Presidential Election thread: Great Scott!!

I didn't see mention of this yet.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slate...marijuana.html

Looks like Democrats are adding the removal of Marijuana from Schedule 1 and creating a path to legalization to the party platform.

Might help bring out the vote, perhaps.
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Old 07-11-16, 08:20 AM
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Re: The 2016 Presidential Election thread: Great Scott!!

I still cannot believe that there are people who cannot see the #1 reason to vote for Hillary Clinton, above SCROTUS picks and policy, is to keep Donald Trump out of the Whitehouse.

Am I the only one that see this as an intolerable outcome? Donald Trump, clown, reality star, con man. No experience. No knowledge. Do you want Donald Trump managing the nuclear arsenal? He's unstable and unfit. This is serious.
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Old 07-11-16, 08:43 AM
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Re: The 2016 Presidential Election thread: Great Scott!!

Originally Posted by CRM114 View Post
I still cannot believe that there are people who cannot see the #1 reason to vote for Hillary Clinton, above SCROTUS picks and policy, is to keep Donald Trump out of the Whitehouse.

Am I the only one that see this as an intolerable outcome? Donald Trump, clown, reality star, con man. No experience. No knowledge. Do you want Donald Trump managing the nuclear arsenal? He's unstable and unfit. This is serious.
"SCOTUS picks" is just a smokescreen of an excuse that they use. The root reason is their belief that Hillary is Satan-incarnate. (not from a Biblical perspective, but they believe that she is evil itself) They know that they can't come right out and say it (in spite of Trump's no-holds-barred statements) so they hide behind "SCOTUS picks" as if there is a chance of SCOTUS overturning Roe v. Wade or Same-sex marriage. These people don't understand that there would need to be a legal reason for doing so... not just "getting their guys/gals in".

For some, Hillary represents a continuation of establishment politics. Nothing of significant impact will change. If one likes where we currently are, then that is viewed as a good thing. If not, well...

...that's where Trump comes in. There are people who have a level of fear, sense of helplessness and hopelessness that have brought them to the point of thinking "ANYTHING, even a total destruction of everything would be better".

We have Fox News, the Evangelical Industrial Complex, and an overall decay in morality, decency, and compassion to blame.

That's just the Republican side of the equation... I'll save what's going on on the Democrat's side for another post.
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Old 07-11-16, 10:08 AM
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Re: The 2016 Presidential Election thread: Great Scott!!

Originally Posted by CRM114 View Post
I still cannot believe that there are people who cannot see the #1 reason to vote for Hillary Clinton, above SCROTUS picks and policy, is to keep Donald Trump out of the Whitehouse.

Am I the only one that see this as an intolerable outcome? Donald Trump, clown, reality star, con man. No experience. No knowledge. Do you want Donald Trump managing the nuclear arsenal? He's unstable and unfit. This is serious.
Of course you're not the only one. If by some fluke this idiot's elected, you'll have interviews with people afterwards just like the Brexit vote. "It was just a protest vote. I didn't mean it to happen. Can we have a revote?"
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Old 07-11-16, 10:15 AM
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Re: The 2016 Presidential Election thread: Great Scott!!

Originally Posted by GreenMonkey View Post
I didn't see mention of this yet.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slate...marijuana.html

Looks like Democrats are adding the removal of Marijuana from Schedule 1 and creating a path to legalization to the party platform.

Might help bring out the vote, perhaps.
In fact, the platform contains major concessions to Sanders -- concessions he wouldn't've gotten if he'd dropped out early. Not that I expect certain people to acknowledge that Sanders was right to keep in the race and gather all the leverage he could get.
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Old 07-11-16, 10:22 AM
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Re: The 2016 Presidential Election thread: Great Scott!!

Originally Posted by sracer View Post
they hide behind "SCOTUS picks" as if there is a chance of SCOTUS overturning Roe v. Wade
So we're literally two weeks out from a 5-3 Supreme Court decision that, had it gone the other way, would have shut down nearly every abortion clinic in Texas. Technically, Roe v. Wade would have remained on the books, but from a practical perspective, it would have been a dead letter -- at least in Texas, and probably in a lot of other states that would have followed Texas's lead. This isn't a hypothetical issue.
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Old 07-11-16, 10:24 AM
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Re: The 2016 Presidential Election thread: Great Scott!!

Originally Posted by cungar View Post
Of course you're not the only one. If by some fluke this idiot's elected, you'll have interviews with people afterwards just like the Brexit vote. "It was just a protest vote. I didn't mean it to happen. Can we have a revote?"
It's the elephant in the room. To suggest Donald Trump is qualified and fit to be President is preposterous.

I'll say it again, if Donald Trump was running on the Democratic ticket against George W. Bush, I'd vote for George W. Bush. What is the excuse of those in the Republican party?
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