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The 2016 Presidential Election thread - it's over? edition

Old 06-17-16, 09:04 PM
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Re: The 2016 Presidential Election thread: come for the anger, stay for the Hüsker Dü

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Old 06-17-16, 09:22 PM
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Re: The 2016 Presidential Election thread: come for the anger, stay for the Hüsker Dü

Originally Posted by joeblow69 View Post
This is what he said:

Look, we're led by a man that either is not tough, not smart, or he's got something else in mind. And the something else in mind — you know, people can't believe it. People cannot, they cannot believe that President Obama is acting the way he acts and can't even mention the words 'radical Islamic terrorism.' There's something going on. It's inconceivable.

The assumption was "he's got something else in mind .... that's inconceivable" is that he is saying Obama is in with the terrorists.

I'm sure you will say that's quite a leap, but I'm not sure what else Trump could have been talking about that is so damn inconceivable.
It's not a great leap, however the something else is more gun laws.

When a President is unwilling to identify one issue, but yet goes out of his way to identify another issue, and attach it with Republican bias...it creates an atmosphere of disproportion. And this leads to doubts, wherever they may lead. And that's why our President has needed to identify Radical Islam for what it is, and just move on with it, instead of consistently making it a political issue.

Because it's not. If a guy pledges allegiance to ISIS, then recognize it for what it is.

The more you deny a problem exists and try to mince words, the more it looks like you're hiding something and not being honest.

If a Christian Extremist group was affiliated with an attack, I would expect the same level of identification for what it is.

Let's not protect certain groups simply because they belong to a much larger group that believes in peace. We need to separate them from the rest, identify them, and destroy them.
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Old 06-17-16, 09:24 PM
  #16953  
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Re: The 2016 Presidential Election thread: come for the anger, stay for the Hüsker Dü

Originally Posted by DVD Polizei View Post
It's not a great leap, however the something else is more gun laws.
It's inconceivable that Obama wants more gun laws? I know that sometimes it's really hard to figure out what Trump is saying, but I don't think anyone has come up with that explanation.
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Old 06-17-16, 09:39 PM
  #16954  
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Re: The 2016 Presidential Election thread: come for the anger, stay for the Hüsker Dü

Originally Posted by dork View Post
What's the name of the Ivy Leaguer who created this?
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Old 06-17-16, 09:59 PM
  #16955  
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Re: The 2016 Presidential Election thread: come for the anger, stay for the Hüsker Dü

They should have running mates selected sometime before the conventions?

Saw that Trump was considering speaking somewhere else and skipping his own convention? Has that ever been done before?
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Old 06-17-16, 10:28 PM
  #16956  
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Re: The 2016 Presidential Election thread: come for the anger, stay for the Hüsker Dü

Originally Posted by joeblow69 View Post
It's inconceivable that Obama wants more gun laws? I know that sometimes it's really hard to figure out what Trump is saying, but I don't think anyone has come up with that explanation.
It's the repeated message of guns needing to be banned, and that time after time, we see terrorists in the US, using various forms of weapons, purchased legally. It's simply a wasted and fruitless game of catch me if you can.

And time after time, nothing is really done. Proposed gun laws, but every few months, another shooting which isn't even affected by those laws happens, and we see Democrats up in arms, Republicans up in arms, protesting...then silence...then another attack happens, whether radically-inspired or not.

Let's face it, laws specifically looking to remove guns out of the public arena will never work. We need to look further than just placating impulsive political panderings, and need to start redefining how much access to weapons a person should have when they support terrorist groups.

In other words, focus on the access to the weapon. Not on the removal of the weapon.

Until Americans realize that the 1st Amendment and 2nd Amendment are not sacred when it comes to the wanting destruction of Americans, more attacks will happen, and unfortunately, more politicians will continue their division of the American public.

With so much division in politics, it's difficult to foresee anything happening, but I hope it will.

How many more terrorist attacks need to happen and how many more Americans dead will need to occur, before there is a consolidated effort to rid this country of individual allegiances to terrorist groups who want to obtain weapons. That's the question I have. Maybe a few more thousand Americans dead? Maybe 10,000 Americans dead? I'm not sure. But apparently, a few dozen here and there isn't enough. And with ISIS shifting into turbo with their attacks, I expect some serious carnage in the future. Let's not pretend attacks like Orlando won't happen again. Let's not pretend another 9/11 won't happen again.

Even Brennan has commented recently on the ISIS surge, which seems to contradict statements from our President only a few days ago.
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Old 06-17-16, 10:58 PM
  #16957  
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Re: The 2016 Presidential Election thread: come for the anger, stay for the Hüsker Dü

Originally Posted by DVD Polizei View Post
Let's face it, laws specifically looking to remove guns out of the public arena will never work.
I pretty sure it has worked, otherwise we would be seeing a lot of fully automatic machine guns being used in these mass shootings.

And I really don't think Trump was talking about guns at ALL. He was talking about ISIS and terrorism, not gun laws.
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Old 06-18-16, 12:09 AM
  #16958  
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Re: The 2016 Presidential Election thread: come for the anger, stay for the Hüsker Dü

Trump's tweet on Wednesday was much more specific than his comments on television. His tweet stated (referring to himself in the third person), "...Media fell all over themselves criticizing what DonaldTrump 'may have insinuated about @POTUS.' But he's right: https://t.co/bIIdYtvZYw"

Trump tweets story claiming 'secret memo' shows Obama supports ISIS at TheHill.com
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Old 06-18-16, 12:19 AM
  #16959  
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Re: The 2016 Presidential Election thread: come for the anger, stay for the Hüsker Dü

Trump was accusing Obama of treason, and in his usual way of "a lot of people are saying..." so he can pretend he's not the one who's saying it. Except then he decided to take credit when he found the Breitbart article, which I read was based on a preliminary unverified report.
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Old 06-18-16, 12:37 AM
  #16960  
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Re: The 2016 Presidential Election thread: come for the anger, stay for the Hüsker Dü

Originally Posted by Ghostbuster View Post
Trump's tweet on Wednesday was much more specific than his comments on television. His tweet stated (referring to himself in the third person), "...Media fell all over themselves criticizing what DonaldTrump 'may have insinuated about @POTUS.' But he's right: https://t.co/bIIdYtvZYw"

Trump tweets story claiming 'secret memo' shows Obama supports ISIS at TheHill.com
If true, it's a ridiculous accusation. Just like Trump being accused of aligning/supporting terrorists many months ago.

P.S. Looks like it accuses the Obama Administration...not Obama directly. And I have so much shit loading on Breitbart's page, with comments allowed, my browser just stalls.
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Old 06-18-16, 12:52 AM
  #16961  
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Re: The 2016 Presidential Election thread: come for the anger, stay for the Hüsker Dü

Originally Posted by DVD Polizei View Post
This is all going to depend on your definition of extreme, so I could come up with many extremist Liberal websites, but if you think their message is the truth, such as Trump being a Nazi and preparing the US for its destruction, then there's not much I can do to convince you to modify that 10:1 ratio.

The New Republic article:



Talk about conspiracy theories.

This took me a few minutes to find. I wonder how many other normal Liberal websites I can come across.

If this is another satire website, then my bad. I cannot tell the difference anymore these days, so somebody will have to point this out to me.
Took you a few minutes to find far left nuttery, whereas it takes me seconds to find far right ones. Also, while that article's pretty out there, New Republic's a liberal magazine that's been around for more than a hundred years, and it just got crazy in the last few years.
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Old 06-18-16, 01:41 AM
  #16962  
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Re: The 2016 Presidential Election thread: come for the anger, stay for the Hüsker Dü

Also, to be clear, CNN and The New York Times have both called Trump proto-fascist, and that was before he began revoking press credentials and made racist comments about a federal judge. Hardly what I would consider left wing nut bag outlets.
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Old 06-18-16, 02:07 AM
  #16963  
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Re: The 2016 Presidential Election thread: come for the anger, stay for the Hüsker Dü

Originally Posted by slop101 View Post
Took you a few minutes to find far left nuttery, whereas it takes me seconds to find far right ones. Also, while that article's pretty out there, New Republic's a liberal magazine that's been around for more than a hundred years, and it just got crazy in the last few years.
So, let me understand your response:

Response: "It took you longer to find a Left-wing nutball website than it took me to find a Right-wing website."

Conclusion: This must mean there are several times more Right-wing nutballs in the universe.

Response: TNR has been around for more than 100 years, and just recently got nutty.

Conclusion: TNR, while currently nutty and publishing illogical theories...is still historically a very sound publication. Just don't pay attention to last few years.

-----

Hmmmm. I dunno.
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Old 06-18-16, 02:48 AM
  #16964  
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Re: The 2016 Presidential Election thread: come for the anger, stay for the Hüsker Dü

Paper Trail vs. No Paper Trail (Google Drive File)

Clinton vs. Sanders

Does HRC have an advantage in elections where there is no paper trails? This 4-page analysis seems to think so.
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Old 06-18-16, 06:23 AM
  #16965  
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Re: The 2016 Presidential Election thread: come for the anger, stay for the Hüsker Dü

Originally Posted by joeblow69 View Post
I pretty sure it has worked, otherwise we would be seeing a lot of fully automatic machine guns being used in these mass shootings.
Yeah, it worked so well in France and England.

The AR-15 style rifle has been the best selling rifle for well over a decade. To ban the sale now is like rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. Unless you want to start confiscation, which is a major policy shift, the access is too great to have any major impact. We banned them in NY but they either steal them or bring them in from other states. We have two mass shootings just in Rochester. One used a straw buyer, the other stole the whole gun safe and had everything they needed.

Like all things Trump says, his message is too boisterous to be taken seriously. However his point is this valid; we rip at the police every chance we get, we call this gun violence when it's Islamic Radical issues, and we want to ban weapons all the while the terrorists got their hands on them quite easily in France.

Hey Zimmerman, where the hell were you when you actually could have done some good?
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Old 06-18-16, 06:52 AM
  #16966  
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Re: The 2016 Presidential Election thread: come for the anger, stay for the Hüsker Dü

Originally Posted by JimRochester View Post
The AR-15 style rifle has been the best selling rifle for well over a decade. To ban the sale now is like rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.
You gotta think 'bigger picture.' The Model-T and '57 Chevy were the best selling cars of their time. Do you see many of them anymore? Of course not, because manufacturers stopped making them.

Banning assault rifles and the like won't make an impact overnight or even in the next few years, but it will make an impact decades from now. What's 'out there' will be it and those guns will become collector's items more than anything.

I know this is not a perfect analogy, as cars age and break down from usage and are removed from the road at a far faster rate than guns. However, like collectable cars, as guns become more of a collector's item they will get used less and less. How many AR owners will keep up with the maintenance for decades instead of letting it be a collector's item on a shelf?

Unfortunately our society can only focus on immediate results. Even if one president manages to ban military grade weapons from citizens, the next president will point to the lack of results and overturn it.
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Old 06-18-16, 08:09 AM
  #16967  
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Re: The 2016 Presidential Election thread: come for the anger, stay for the Hüsker Dü

Originally Posted by Supermallet View Post
Also, to be clear, CNN and The New York Times have both called Trump proto-fascist, and that was before he began revoking press credentials and made racist comments about a federal judge. Hardly what I would consider left wing nut bag outlets.
Are you kidding? Conservatives have been trying to paint these two as the Corlick Sisters of liberal media bias for decades.
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Old 06-18-16, 08:28 AM
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Re: The 2016 Presidential Election thread: come for the anger, stay for the Hüsker Dü

Originally Posted by Michael Corvin View Post
You gotta think 'bigger picture.' The Model-T and '57 Chevy were the best selling cars of their time. Do you see many of them anymore? Of course not, because manufacturers stopped making them.

Banning assault rifles and the like won't make an impact overnight or even in the next few years, but it will make an impact decades from now. What's 'out there' will be it and those guns will become collector's items more than anything.

I know this is not a perfect analogy, as cars age and break down from usage and are removed from the road at a far faster rate than guns. However, like collectable cars, as guns become more of a collector's item they will get used less and less. How many AR owners will keep up with the maintenance for decades instead of letting it be a collector's item on a shelf?

Unfortunately our society can only focus on immediate results. Even if one president manages to ban military grade weapons from citizens, the next president will point to the lack of results and overturn it.
Guns are not like collectible cars. Car manufacturers made those old classics BETTER, STRONGER, MORE POWERFUL.

I understand your analogy but the result is actually saying since gun manufacturers can make their weapons even more powerful, have even better performance, replacing the old classics, and this is fine because like classic cars, they will be replaced.

Basically, you're saying ban the AR-15 and gun manufacturers can come out with an AR-16 that's even more powerful, higher capacity rounds, etc.

Let's stop with the analogies and stop trying to justify our stances on guns. Because that gets us right back to legislation on objects that is expired before it even gets on the books.

Again, let's concentrate on the access, and get some legislation that can bite into those who associate with terrorists...which will ban ANY AND ALL WEAPONS to be purchased, regardless if it's a classic or a modern monster killer. Instead of nitpicking over models of guns, how many rounds they have, and how Rambo-ish they look (per Elizabeth Warren), let's focus on the access.
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Old 06-18-16, 08:45 AM
  #16969  
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Re: The 2016 Presidential Election thread: come for the anger, stay for the Hüsker Dü

Originally Posted by Michael Corvin View Post
You gotta think 'bigger picture.' The Model-T and '57 Chevy were the best selling cars of their time. Do you see many of them anymore? Of course not, because manufacturers stopped making them.

Banning assault rifles and the like won't make an impact overnight or even in the next few years, but it will make an impact decades from now. What's 'out there' will be it and those guns will become collector's items more than anything.

I know this is not a perfect analogy, as cars age and break down from usage and are removed from the road at a far faster rate than guns. However, like collectable cars, as guns become more of a collector's item they will get used less and less. How many AR owners will keep up with the maintenance for decades instead of letting it be a collector's item on a shelf?

Unfortunately our society can only focus on immediate results. Even if one president manages to ban military grade weapons from citizens, the next president will point to the lack of results and overturn it.
Cars are an item designed and purchased with a finite life in mind. There are probably more civil war era flintlocks floating around than 57 Chevy's. Guns have fewer moving parts, easier to keep operating, and easier to restore. Guns like these have been banned for a very long time in Europe yet they are seeing increasing violence as well. There are roughly 30 million of these AR's in circulation right now. That doesn't count the other variations such as the AK's and those variants. Decades is an understatement before an impact would be felt. Maybe a century before people had trouble securing one.
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Old 06-18-16, 09:14 AM
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Re: The 2016 Presidential Election thread: come for the anger, stay for the Hüsker Dü

Originally Posted by JimRochester View Post
Cars are an item designed and purchased with a finite life in mind. There are probably more civil war era flintlocks floating around than 57 Chevy's. Guns have fewer moving parts, easier to keep operating, and easier to restore. Guns like these have been banned for a very long time in Europe yet they are seeing increasing violence as well. There are roughly 30 million of these AR's in circulation right now. That doesn't count the other variations such as the AK's and those variants. Decades is an understatement before an impact would be felt. Maybe a century before people had trouble securing one.
One benefit of stopping the manufacture of these weapons will be the collector market will start scooping them up, and their value will increase exponentially. Your hatred of the government may be strong, but when someone is offering you $10,000+ for something you paid $1500 for, you may have some second thoughts.
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Old 06-18-16, 09:37 AM
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Re: The 2016 Presidential Election thread: come for the anger, stay for the Hüsker Dü

Originally Posted by JimRochester View Post
Maybe a century before people had trouble securing one.
So be it. Let's get this ball rolling and 100 years from now we can look forward to a society where there isn't a school or public massacre every day.

Originally Posted by DVD Polizei View Post

Basically, you're saying ban the AR-15 and gun manufacturers can come out with an AR-16 that's even more powerful, higher capacity rounds, etc.
I'm not sure how you got that out of what I posted at all. If ARs are banned and no longer manufactured, then an AR-16 cannot exist.

It would at least be a start. Anything on the market is fair game until 0/00/20xx when they're removed from the market. Existing nutbags get to keep their military grade weapons (still have yet to see a single explanation from anyone, anywhere, why they are needed). Future generations of gun nuts will have to live with handguns, rifles, shotguns, etc. and hand me downs of the military grade stuff. Miserable life, I know.
Originally Posted by DVD Polizei View Post

Again, let's concentrate on the access,
Why not both? That's the problem arguing with gun nuts. It's one or the other. There are multiple avenues that can be explored. Both can be tackled to achieve... something instead of the current amount of nothing being accomplished.
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Old 06-18-16, 10:08 AM
  #16972  
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Re: The 2016 Presidential Election thread: come for the anger, stay for the Hüsker Dü

Why do you think an AR-16 cannot be manufactured? You'll need a new law, in addition to banning the AR-15. Call it an AS-15, then.

New product, new style, new and better performance. You'll need this information.

You plan on passing legislation that prevents manufacturers from making future weapons?

You cannot ban something where you have no idea what the specs will be.
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Old 06-18-16, 10:20 AM
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Re: The 2016 Presidential Election thread: come for the anger, stay for the Hüsker Dü

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Old 06-18-16, 10:20 AM
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Re: The 2016 Presidential Election thread: come for the anger, stay for the Hüsker Dü

Originally Posted by JimRochester View Post
Yeah, it worked so well in France and England.
You realize the Jo Cox assassination is such big news because gun violence is so rare in Britain?

The gun homicide rate in England and Whales is about one for every 1 million people, according to the Geneva Declaration of Armed Violence and Development, a multinational organization based in Switzerland.

In a population of 56 million, that adds up to about 50 to 60 gun killings annually. In the USA, by contrast, there are about 160 times as many gun homicides in a country that is roughly six times larger in population. There were 8,124 gun homicides in 2014, according to the latest FBI figures.
France's rate is about four times that of Britain, but of course Britain has the advantage of being an island, which makes gun smuggling more difficult. The US, meanwhile, has a rate comparable to a not-very-well-run Third World country.

Nobody claims that restricting guns will stop all gun crimes. The point is to reduce the problem to a level where it's not a national embarrassment.

The AR-15 style rifle has been the best selling rifle for well over a decade. To ban the sale now is like rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.
Yes, yes, the problem's too big, we can't do nothing so there's no point in trying. That's what the NRA has been trying to convince people of for decades. And it's bullshit.

Unless you want to start confiscation, which is a major policy shift,
If AR-15-style weapons are too dangerous for civilian use, why shouldn't we confiscate them?
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Old 06-18-16, 10:24 AM
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Re: The 2016 Presidential Election thread: come for the anger, stay for the Hüsker Dü

AR-15-style weapons are not too dangerous.

Look at the stats. How many of those are in the homes of typical Americans, in the hands of law-abiding gun owners...who are doing just fine with them.

You make it sound like all AR-15 weapons are being used to shoot people. That's simply not true, and a very small portion are used to murder people. Just like many other things that kill people but as a collective and a majority of the time...don't.
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