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The 2016 Presidential Election thread - it's over? edition

Old 06-13-16, 10:03 AM
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Re: The 2016 Presidential Election thread: come for the anger, stay for the Hüsker Dü

Originally Posted by sracer View Post
That's perhaps the lasting impact of Trump... because he's operating at a 3rd grade level, he makes 5th grade level sound like insight from a wise sage, but it's not... it's 5th grade.
That's still a 2-grade difference.
5th grade level > 3rd grade level.
And that was my point, that people shouldn't be equating.
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Old 06-13-16, 10:03 AM
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Re: The 2016 Presidential Election thread: come for the anger, stay for the Hüsker Dü

Originally Posted by kvrdave View Post
So, what's the fucking point of the NSA again? If we're going to live with the government reading all our emails, recording all our phone calls, etc., because they tell us it will make us safer, why didn't it make us safer? I have no idea what Trumps position on this is, but he can likely be easily swayed to big government once he is in office. I assume Hillary is status quo and will keep making more terrorists in her bid for regime change across the earth with her use of drones.
I think the difficulty with using NSA to catch these terrorists is that you have to filter out all the noise. Kinda like reading DVDTalk.

As for using drones, what choice do we have: Let them be, or send it troops? As much as I hate them, I think often drones are the only workable option.
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Old 06-13-16, 10:31 AM
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Re: The 2016 Presidential Election thread: come for the anger, stay for the Hüsker Dü

I don't know. I think we should be tracking dudes that are the family of Taliban sympathizers. It's not like his father was an unknown quantity.
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Old 06-13-16, 11:08 AM
  #16579  
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Re: The 2016 Presidential Election thread: come for the anger, stay for the Hüsker Dü

Originally Posted by slop101 View Post
That's still a 2-grade difference.
5th grade level > 3rd grade level.
And that was my point, that people shouldn't be equating.
Yes, I understand that was your point. But in comparing anything to Trump's response makes Trump the new normal and thereby ELEVATING Hillary.

You wouldn't compare what a teenage internet troll says to what a mature adult says in serious matters so why do that with Trump? Yes, he's running for president but he is not a serious person.

That has been the error made by his opponents. They ignored him instead of dismissing him.
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Old 06-13-16, 11:13 AM
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Re: The 2016 Presidential Election thread: come for the anger, stay for the Hüsker Dü

While we haven't declared war on ISIS to say we haven't done anything is not accurate.
Working with our allies we have managed to dramatically reduce the territory they control and their
monitory assets.
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Old 06-13-16, 11:29 AM
  #16581  
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Re: The 2016 Presidential Election thread: come for the anger, stay for the Hüsker Dü

Declaring war on ISIS will have the same effect as declaring a war on drugs. It will lead to an ever escalating war expenditure that will make defense contractor wealthy while doing little to nothing to actually increase safety around the world. In fact, it will likely make it worse, just like the war on drugs.

At least that is my guess.
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Old 06-13-16, 11:36 AM
  #16582  
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Re: The 2016 Presidential Election thread: come for the anger, stay for the Hüsker Dü

Originally Posted by kvrdave View Post
So, what's the fucking point of the NSA again? If we're going to live with the government reading all our emails, recording all our phone calls, etc., because they tell us it will make us safer, why didn't it make us safer? I have no idea what Trumps position on this is, but he can likely be easily swayed to big government once he is in office. I assume Hillary is status quo and will keep making more terrorists in her bid for regime change across the earth with her use of drones.
I'm no NSA fan, but I have to question your premise. You can't point to any particular attack and say "here is evidence that we are not safer", any more than you can point to a period of time where there were no attacks and say "here is evidence that we are safer". How many attacks might we have had in the absence of the NSA? We don't know the answer.
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Old 06-13-16, 11:49 AM
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Re: The 2016 Presidential Election thread: come for the anger, stay for the Hüsker Dü

So we should double the size of the NSA.

My point is that if they don't stop these things, and there is evidence that the FBI spoke to the guy twice, and his father is a scumbag, then why do we give up our privacy again? I thought it was for safety. They ought to be able to point to things they have presented to make their cost on our freedoms worth it. Otherwise the argument for keeping them is that they are so secret we don't know all the benefits. Either they become less secret or we question their ability to accomplish their stated goals.

Or we do nothing.
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Old 06-13-16, 11:51 AM
  #16584  
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Re: The 2016 Presidential Election thread: come for the anger, stay for the Hüsker Dü

I am sure we catch some, and we prevent a lot more. Just because most of us don't see it doesn't mean that it doesn't happen.
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Old 06-13-16, 11:58 AM
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Re: The 2016 Presidential Election thread: come for the anger, stay for the Hüsker Dü

Originally Posted by LurkerDan View Post
I'm no NSA fan, but I have to question your premise. You can't point to any particular attack and say "here is evidence that we are not safer", any more than you can point to a period of time where there were no attacks and say "here is evidence that we are safer". How many attacks might we have had in the absence of the NSA? We don't know the answer.
Fair enough. But considering the significant loss to personal privacy in exchange for the promise of increased security, the onus is on the government to demonstrate that there is a net positive. They obviously couldn't reveal anything that would jeopardize current operations, but anything in the past that could show we are safer would be helpful.

Otherwise all we have is the government's word (and the word of Fox News).

And how much of the need for the NSA is to counter-balance the effects of the U.S. efforts in regime change? If we didn't go into Iraq, Afghanistan, etc. would we still need the NSA (to the extent that it currently exists)?

I'm not saying or implying that terrorism would go away by refraining from interfering with the internal workings of a sovereign nation, but there has to be SOME connection.
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Old 06-13-16, 12:01 PM
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Re: The 2016 Presidential Election thread: come for the anger, stay for the Hüsker Dü

Is suppose it depends on what you read.


Do NSA's Bulk Surveillance Programs Stop Terrorism?



NSA Director: Surveillance Stopped 50 Terror Plots
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Old 06-13-16, 12:47 PM
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Re: The 2016 Presidential Election thread: come for the anger, stay for the Hüsker Dü

Originally Posted by Psi View Post
I am sure we catch some, and we prevent a lot more. Just because most of us don't see it doesn't mean that it doesn't happen.
Exactly. It's not easy to quantify what they stop. Occasionally you read about a terror plot that was broken up, but in reality, most would likely not be stopped so close to fruition, and so might never make news, and might not even be easy to document as a plot you stopped.

Again, no fan of the NSA, and not saying that we shouldn't shut it down. But pointing to this tragedy and saying "the NSA doesn't work" is knee jerk.
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Old 06-13-16, 12:50 PM
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Re: The 2016 Presidential Election thread: come for the anger, stay for the Hüsker Dü

I think a lot of the effect is in "raising the barrier" - making it more difficult for people to attack. It's similar to metal detectors at government offices and major events. How many terrorist plots did they stop per metal detector installed? I think that's the wrong way to judge their value. They prevent, and it's hard to quantify things that could have happened, but didn't.

But I agree that it's tough to catch these lone-wolf attacks, especially when the guy is willing to die. How do you prevent an incident like Orlando? I don't know. Maybe restricting guns would be similar to installing metal detectors, but I think we have too long ago crossed that bridge to go back.
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Old 06-13-16, 01:03 PM
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Re: The 2016 Presidential Election thread: come for the anger, stay for the Hüsker Dü

Originally Posted by LurkerDan View Post
Exactly. It's not easy to quantify what they stop. Occasionally you read about a terror plot that was broken up, but in reality, most would likely not be stopped so close to fruition, and so might never make news, and might not even be easy to document as a plot you stopped.

Again, no fan of the NSA, and not saying that we shouldn't shut it down. But pointing to this tragedy and saying "the NSA doesn't work" is knee jerk.
Does it matter that I believe it before, or does it still qualify as knee jerk?
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Old 06-13-16, 01:04 PM
  #16590  
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Re: The 2016 Presidential Election thread: come for the anger, stay for the Hüsker Dü

Originally Posted by kvrdave View Post
Declaring war on ISIS will have the same effect as declaring a war on drugs. It will lead to an ever escalating war expenditure that will make defense contractor wealthy while doing little to nothing to actually increase safety around the world. In fact, it will likely make it worse, just like the war on drugs.

At least that is my guess.
We could have an international coalition and crush ISIL as it exists today. Russia had an airliner blown out of the sky by ISIL and does nothing. If we are to do something, we need Russia, we need Muslim countries. The atrocities they are committing over there are outrageous.
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Old 06-13-16, 01:24 PM
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Re: The 2016 Presidential Election thread: come for the anger, stay for the Hüsker Dü

I agree. But we don't want to do that. It isn't good for business. We don't care about international coalitions, we care about people letting us do what we want and maybe showing token support.
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Old 06-13-16, 01:54 PM
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Re: The 2016 Presidential Election thread: come for the anger, stay for the Hüsker Dü

Trump is blabbering on at a press conference right now about protecting the LGBT community from Islam. Does he not remember which party he is running on?
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Old 06-13-16, 02:05 PM
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Re: The 2016 Presidential Election thread: come for the anger, stay for the Hüsker Dü

Originally Posted by stvn1974 View Post
Trump is blabbering on at a press conference right now about protecting the LGBT community from Islam. Does he not remember which party he is running on?
Better blabber than Hillary but I will say, Hillary is mentioning Islam more than her big buddy. To that, I will give her credit.
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Old 06-13-16, 02:13 PM
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Re: The 2016 Presidential Election thread: come for the anger, stay for the Hüsker Dü

That Trump blabber was truly frightening. The guy has absolutely no clue. He is overmatched. He knows more reading the internet than people who've spent their entire careers on the subject.
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Old 06-13-16, 02:50 PM
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Re: The 2016 Presidential Election thread: come for the anger, stay for the Hüsker Dü

Originally Posted by Psi View Post
I think a lot of the effect is in "raising the barrier" - making it more difficult for people to attack. It's similar to metal detectors at government offices and major events. How many terrorist plots did they stop per metal detector installed? I think that's the wrong way to judge their value. They prevent, and it's hard to quantify things that could have happened, but didn't.
One could use this argument for building a wall...

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Old 06-13-16, 03:33 PM
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Re: The 2016 Presidential Election thread: come for the anger, stay for the Hüsker Dü

Originally Posted by CRM114 View Post
That Trump blabber was truly frightening. The guy has absolutely no clue. He is overmatched. He knows more reading the internet than people who've spent their entire careers on the subject.
I thought he did well until I heard my favorite word...BIGLY.
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Old 06-13-16, 03:36 PM
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Re: The 2016 Presidential Election thread: come for the anger, stay for the Hüsker Dü

Originally Posted by CRM114 View Post
We could have an international coalition and crush ISIL as it exists today. Russia had an airliner blown out of the sky by ISIL and does nothing.
Say what?

A good way of predicting Moscow's next steps in the Syria conflict is to listen to what Russian political and military leaders say and prepare for the opposite. While other actors on this most bloody of stages have been characterised by their preference for short-term tactics, the Russians have long had a strategy for their involvement in the country.

Moscow's strategy is born of its historic relationship with the Assad regime and its priorities for the future of a fast-changing Middle East. What is more, this is largely unchallenged and unaccountable.

Putin is aware that after five years of bloodshed in Syria what is and isn't happening on the ground at a granular level is an unknown to all but the most ardent observers. Into this swirling fog of war the Russians have decided to paint their own narrative, realising that by controlling and sticking to consistent lines they can write the first draft of history while affecting the actions of others.

Last September the Syrian regime was on the back foot and there was increasing talk of a Turkish-sponsored "safe" zone in the north. Into this equation came the Russian air campaign that significantly changed the balance of power.


Russian military hardware was unleashed, with retreating Syrian opposition forces claiming that they could distinguish Russian from Syrian warplanes by the fact that Russian planes mainly attack at night and are both more accurate and intense.

Warnings from observers that Russian bombs were killing hundreds of civilians were flatly denied, with Moscow brazenly claiming that "not one" had died.

As quickly as they arrived, the Russians apparently left. In March, they declared victory and announced a withdrawal, as well as releasing press statements showing the medals that awaited their forces back home.

The importance the Russians give to narrative control and general PR was reflected in their embedded tours of airbases, but what happened in Palmyra would take things to an entirely new level.

Conscious that the liberation of the famous historical site from the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant group (ISIL), would make global headlines in ways that other components of the conflict hadn't, the Russians went into overdrive.

Journalists who covered the story of the Mariinsky Theatre Orchestra performing in the Palmyra ruins where previously ISIL had executed prisoners told a story of hours of travel from Russia, more hours under heavy guard in Palmyra, for a performance that lasted only 15 minutes.

The resources and effort dedicated to the performance show how far Moscow is willing to go to tell the story of its support to a beleaguered government in its fight against terrorism.

Yet with US diplomatic efforts to hold Russia to its words in Geneva stalling, this could soon change.

[B]Following the much-publicised Palmyra concert came leaked footage showing what appeared to be a Russian forward operating facility being set up near the famous ruins.

The Pentagon confirmed that it was monitoring the facility while contradicting the story that the Russians had withdrawn, claiming its force numbers were fairly consistent with those before the announced departure.

A Russian Defence Ministry spokesman said that what was being reported in Palmyra wasn't an airbase which would be "economically unviable", but this measured argument was undermined when Russian Defence Minister Igor Konashenkov told the AP that it wasn't even a base at all.

There is an understandable sensitivity about the status of Russian bases in Syria, with a historic focus on Russia's only Mediterranean naval base in Tartus that was put into sharp perspective by Monday's ISIL attacks on the town and the ones in Jableh that killed more than 120 people.

To date Russia has been able to call the shots because no other global power is willing to put as many chips on the table as them, or call their bluff. Yet simply saying that the Syrian war is won is different from winning it, and the one thing that has been consistent in this conflict has been its unpredictability.

Meanwhile, the Americans have shown that they are capable of their own surprises with the unannounced 11-hour trip to Kurdish-controlled northern Syria on Saturday by General Joseph Votel, the commander of US Central Command, leading to speculation that, with peace talks failing, Washington is looking to increase its other means of leverage.

A more immediate challenge for Russia over whether it is or isn't building new military bases is whether it will support something tangible that it has already agreed to.

With a deadline of June 1 for the UN to lead airdrops of aid to besieged areas, something that surely is against regime interests, Moscow may be forced into revealing that its rhetoric is hiding a very different set of actions in the very near future.
If we are to do something, we need Russia, we need Muslim countries. The atrocities they are committing over there are outrageous.
The US is wedded to the idea that Assad has to go, while Russia is dedicated to keeping in power. Combined with the situation in the Ukraine, that makes cooperation highly unlikely without a major change in US policy.
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Old 06-13-16, 03:38 PM
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Re: The 2016 Presidential Election thread: come for the anger, stay for the Hüsker Dü

I will agree, Russia and Assad are a difficult situation. But I really don't think Assad is somebody Russia would want to support endlessly as time goes on. Assad is a pawn. So, the US needs to up the ante of Russia's incentive to support Assad. Russia simply stepped up when the US stepped down.
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Old 06-13-16, 04:01 PM
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Re: The 2016 Presidential Election thread: come for the anger, stay for the Hüsker Dü

Originally Posted by Psi View Post
But I agree that it's tough to catch these lone-wolf attacks, especially when the guy is willing to die. How do you prevent an incident like Orlando? I don't know. Maybe restricting guns would be similar to installing metal detectors, but I think we have too long ago crossed that bridge to go back.
There are certainly guns that would allow for hunting and home defense without making it easy to kill 50+ people. Yet all guns are lumped together for these conversations.
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Old 06-13-16, 04:17 PM
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Re: The 2016 Presidential Election thread: come for the anger, stay for the Hüsker Dü

Originally Posted by DVD Polizei View Post
I will agree, Russia and Assad are a difficult situation. But I really don't think Assad is somebody Russia would want to support endlessly as time goes on. Assad is a pawn. So, the US needs to up the ante of Russia's incentive to support Assad. Russia simply stepped up when the US stepped down.
No one gives a shit about Assad. They give a shit about the location of Syria and how to capitalize on it. The Russians are protecting their gas pipeline competition. This is why we bother being in the Middle East. It's about money. If there were oil in Africa instead, we'd let the Middle East have their civil wars and we wouldn't do shit. And this is why Hillary wants Syria so bad. It fucks with Putin and makes her friends more money.

It's always the money. Once the oil is gone (or more likely. no longer competing with renewables), we won't give a shit again. Everything besides this being about money in one form or another is a distraction. And religion is the best distraction of all.
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