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The 2016 Presidential Election thread - it's over? edition

Old 06-11-16, 06:24 AM
  #16501  
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Re: The 2016 Presidential Election thread: come for the anger, stay for the Hüsker Dü

Hillary on Mexico

An apparent racist Hillary discusses putting up physical barriers from Mexico and deporting those than done wrong.
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Old 06-11-16, 06:35 AM
  #16502  
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Re: The 2016 Presidential Election thread: come for the anger, stay for the Hüsker Dü

Originally Posted by Draven View Post
The inherent problem with "Make America Great Again" is that for many people, America is FINALLY great for them. So who is it going to be "great" for when he's elected?

Once you start jumping back in time, things get worse for homosexuals, minorities and women. So if Trump is really saying that America used to be great, then that means those people who have fought so hard to be recognized as an equal to the straight white man will lose those gains as we take the country back in time to when it was "great", or back when they didn't have a voice in this country.

Why would any of them want to go back?
Trump supporters are afflicted with a terminal case of "Us vs. Them" mentality. To them, every gain for gays, women, and minorities must have come a a loss for them (i.e., straight white men). As if there is a set amount of "winning" available and when someone else wins, they automatically lose.
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Old 06-11-16, 06:43 AM
  #16503  
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Re: The 2016 Presidential Election thread: come for the anger, stay for the Hüsker Dü

Originally Posted by eXcentris View Post
When Trump gives you a job, you might get paid... or not.
Donald Trump casts himself as a protector of workers and jobs, but a USA TODAY NETWORK investigation found hundreds of people – carpenters, dishwashers, painters, even his own lawyers – who say he didn’t pay them for their work.
.
.
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The actions in total paint a portrait of Trump’s sprawling organization frequently failing to pay small businesses and individuals, then sometimes tying them up in court and other negotiations for years. In some cases, the Trump teams financially overpower and outlast much smaller opponents, draining their resources. Some just give up the fight, or settle for less; some have ended up in bankruptcy or out of business altogether.
Yes, a couple of us mentioned that article early yesterday morning:

Originally Posted by JimRochester View Post
In USA Today they are doing a trash piece on Trump saying he stiffed a lot of people in disputes over work done. Reminds me of a local guy here I used to know when I had my limousine service years ago. This guy had a ton of money that he first got by marrying it. Then he would complain about absolutely everything until he got a discount. The picture in my yellow pages ad is blurry give me discount. The car is 1" too short give me discount. He would go out looking for stuff to complain about just to get a discount. I guess Trump was like that too.
Originally Posted by movielib View Post
Link to USA Today story:

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/p...uits/85297274/

Trump makes JR Ewing look like the epitome of the honest businessperson.
No one seemed to care then.
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Old 06-11-16, 09:02 AM
  #16504  
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Re: The 2016 Presidential Election thread: come for the anger, stay for the Hüsker Dü

NYT story, published just today, about how Trump made lots of money from his Atlantic City casinos and stuck investors with the debts:

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/12/ny...ntic-city.html

The article is too long to post and even picking out quotes is inadequate because there is so much Trumpian crap here (sorry, "crap" is way too mild a word but, well, one just has to read this). A companion piece for the USA Today story.
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Old 06-11-16, 10:33 AM
  #16505  
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Re: The 2016 Presidential Election thread: come for the anger, stay for the Hüsker Dü

Originally Posted by movielib View Post
NYT story, published just today, about how Trump made lots of money from his Atlantic City casinos and stuck investors with the debts:

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/12/ny...ntic-city.html

The article is too long to post and even picking out quotes is inadequate because there is so much Trumpian crap here (sorry, "crap" is way too mild a word but, well, one just has to read this). A companion piece for the USA Today story.
Reading articles like these, I find myself fascinated that Trump never did any prison time. Or found himself at the bottom of the Hudson River in a pair of cement shoes.

Trump's casino operation reminds me of Game of Thrones. When the Stark and Lannister houses went to war, Robb Stark commented that he was winning every battle but losing the war. Trump is like Tywin Lannister; he seems to lose every battle but still comes out on top and walks away with all of the gold.

This bit, toward the end of the article, seems to sum up Trump's political appeal:

In retrospect, David Hanlon, a veteran casino executive who ran Merv Griffin’s Atlantic City operations at the time of the Resorts battle, said, Mr. Trump succeeded in repeatedly convincing investors, bankers and Wall Street that “his name had real value.”

“They were so in love with him that they came back a second, third and fourth time,” Mr. Hanlon said. “They let him strip out assets. It was awful to watch. It was astonishing. I have to give Trump credit for using his celebrity time and time again.”
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Old 06-11-16, 12:16 PM
  #16506  
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Re: The 2016 Presidential Election thread: come for the anger, stay for the Hüsker Dü

Wait a minute.

So Trump is a con man, fooling you into thinking he is racist and sexist!
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Old 06-11-16, 12:25 PM
  #16507  
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Re: The 2016 Presidential Election thread: come for the anger, stay for the Hüsker Dü

Originally Posted by slop101 View Post
The reasons I dislike her have nothing to do with Bernie or the campaign, and I'll leave it at that.
Fair enough. Even though I replied to you, I suppose I was reacting more to Supermallet's "she makes Hillary seem like Bernie." Which is double silly, since all three of them -- DWS, Hillary, and Bernie -- are liberal, yet somehow the Bernistas have turned DWS and Hillary into the second coming of Reagan.
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Old 06-11-16, 12:55 PM
  #16508  
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Re: The 2016 Presidential Election thread: come for the anger, stay for the Hüsker Dü

Originally Posted by DVD Polizei View Post
Wait a minute.

So Trump is a con man, fooling you into thinking he is racist and sexist!
No. He's a racist, sexist con-man fooling a lot of folks into believing he'd make a good president.
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Old 06-11-16, 01:31 PM
  #16509  
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Re: The 2016 Presidential Election thread: come for the anger, stay for the Hüsker Dü

Originally Posted by DVD Polizei View Post
Wait a minute.

So Trump is a con man, fooling you into thinking he is racist and sexist!
It's the racist and sexist things he says that make me think he's a racist and a sexist. No con needed.
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Old 06-11-16, 01:42 PM
  #16510  
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Re: The 2016 Presidential Election thread: come for the anger, stay for the Hüsker Dü

Originally Posted by JasonF View Post
Fair enough. Even though I replied to you, I suppose I was reacting more to Supermallet's "she makes Hillary seem like Bernie." Which is double silly, since all three of them -- DWS, Hillary, and Bernie -- are liberal, yet somehow the Bernistas have turned DWS and Hillary into the second coming of Reagan.
You don't think neoliberalism was a sellout that pushed the Democrats rightward and embraced a lot of bad policies in the '80s and '90s which are coming back to haunt us today?
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Old 06-11-16, 02:01 PM
  #16511  
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Re: The 2016 Presidential Election thread: come for the anger, stay for the Hüsker Dü

Originally Posted by sracer View Post
is that what he said or are you interpreting that? It is deliberately open ended to allow the hearer to imagine when THEY thought America was great... before the brown people came in, eg. illegal immigration which is more of a cornerstone of Trump's campaign than trade deals... and THAT is why MAGA has racial undertones.
Is that what he said or are you interpreting that?

That's how I remember thinking about "Hope" and "Change." Obviously they left it open ended so that you could "hope" all the real blacky black people would leave because Obama would "change" everyone into acceptable black people like himself, articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy.

That was sarcasm. When people at church used to talk to me about "Satan this," and "Satan that," I'd tell them, "If you go looking for Satan in everything, you shouldn't be surprised when you find him." It's the same here. You are trying to make something pretty innocuous into something racist. Lots of reasons to dislike Trump, but I think this is grasping.
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Old 06-11-16, 02:15 PM
  #16512  
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Re: The 2016 Presidential Election thread: come for the anger, stay for the Hüsker Dü

Originally Posted by Draven View Post
It's the racist and sexist things he says that make me think he's a racist and a sexist. No con needed.
He's a con man on some things, but other things...he's speaking the truth?
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Old 06-11-16, 02:57 PM
  #16513  
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Re: The 2016 Presidential Election thread: come for the anger, stay for the Hüsker Dü

Originally Posted by Troy Stiffler View Post
I think we're all going for AIDS. It's actually become quite treatable. Cancer on the other hand...
"To get AIDS you've got be a whore though."

"But Dave, she got it during an operation."

"What kind of whore let herself get fucked on an operation table?"
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Old 06-11-16, 05:42 PM
  #16514  
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Re: The 2016 Presidential Election thread: come for the anger, stay for the Hüsker Dü

Originally Posted by Josh-da-man View Post
No. He's a racist, sexist con-man fooling a lot of folks into believing he'd make a good president.
Worse still, his adherents don't care whether or not he'd make a good president.
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Old 06-11-16, 06:18 PM
  #16515  
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Re: The 2016 Presidential Election thread: come for the anger, stay for the Hüsker Dü

Originally Posted by Norm de Plume View Post
Worse still, his adherents don't care whether or not he'd make a good president.
What's worse is you have people who don't even know what the hell they're talking about...and accusing somebody of something they don't even know the definition of.

Dumb and Dumber. In the same room.

Originally Posted by Draven View Post
It's the racist and sexist things he says that make me think he's a racist and a sexist. No con needed.
Originally Posted by Josh-da-man View Post
No. He's a racist, sexist con-man fooling a lot of folks into believing he'd make a good president.
No, Donald Trump Isn’t a Racist

Yes, many of Trumps’s statements seem racist, but it’s just a plain fact that they’re not.

Why does linguistic accuracy matter? Because there’s an actual danger for those who inaccurately impugn someone’s character: it can backfire and damage the accuser’s credibility. Also, it misdiagnoses the problem many have with Donald Trump as a political candidate. If we misdiagnose our candidates, then we’ll be voting for or against them for the wrong reasons.

Imagine if — after all of the damage he has done to his candidacy by saying what he said about Judge Curiel, Mexican immigrants, and foreign Muslims — Trump parsed this out himself and turned it all around on his accusers? He would be able to use the rhetorical overreach of racism to re-enforce the point that the political class and the media elite simply can’t be trusted, because they just can’t help themselves from exaggerating to make a point, and ultimately get the analysis wrong as a result.

That would be a spectacular irony.
This is a Huffington Post article.

Read the bold print.

Get educated, people. And like this article implies, many are just as stupid as the person they accuse. To change that...you have to be smarter than the person you're accusing.
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Old 06-11-16, 06:21 PM
  #16516  
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Re: The 2016 Presidential Election thread: come for the anger, stay for the Hüsker Dü

So he's not racist. He's just prejudiced.

When you have to resort to arguing the definition of "racism", you've already lost the argument.
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Old 06-11-16, 06:26 PM
  #16517  
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Re: The 2016 Presidential Election thread: come for the anger, stay for the Hüsker Dü

When you have to resort to getting a definition, it demonstrates the lengths a discussion has to go...to override the ignorance of those who don't take the time to get their accusations proper.

Like the article says, if you use the wrong words of accusing somebody, you're setting yourself up.

All I'm saying is, let's get the facts, use the facts. And the facts are, Trump is certainly prejudiced, but he's no David Duke.

But there are many who would just love to correlate the two, and who are educating the ignorant and naive that there is no difference. This is not only a disservice to accuracy in a world where this little...but it's also a disservice to those who have experienced racism in their lives.

When we get our facts in order, and don't try to embellish their meanings, we'll fight a much better political fight, that even our favorite politicians might take notice and follow.
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Old 06-11-16, 06:38 PM
  #16518  
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Re: The 2016 Presidential Election thread: come for the anger, stay for the Hüsker Dü

Originally Posted by DVD Polizei View Post
And the facts are, Trump is certainly prejudiced, but he's no David Duke.
No, he's not. But he's happy to let David Duke endorse him, and then wait a few days to denounce that endorsement, because it brings in a few more voters. Who gives a shit that they're white supremacists? They vote!

But there are many who would just love to correlate the two, and who are educating the ignorant and naive that there is no difference. This is not only a disservice to accuracy in a world where this little...but it's also a disservice to those who have experienced racism in their lives.

When we get our facts in order, and don't try to embellish their meanings, we'll fight a much better political fight, that even our favorite politicians might take notice and follow.
I think you mean that people are trying to conflate the two. Trump is, in a subtle way.

Trump is not an idiot. In fact, he's quite smart. He is a genius at self promotion and marketing. He has built a solid base of rabid fans who think he will kick out the Mexicans and stop any Muslims from entering the country. Many (not all) of them have responded to what is a clear racist undertone of the campaign.

The press called him out on his attacks against Judge Curiel, so he knows he can't do that anymore. Now he's trying to appeal to a broader swath of voters by vilifying Hillary. He is (so far) relying on old attacks and info. His base will lap it up. Whether it sticks remains to be seen, since the press has been on this shit for over 20 years, and none of the argument have seemed to pan out.

The best argument he has is to keep raising the Sec State Clinton emails scandal. That is recent and the FBI is investigating, which makes it seem criminal (and who knows - it might be!) The more he attacks Hillary on old shit, the worse it will get for him.
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Old 06-11-16, 06:54 PM
  #16519  
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Re: The 2016 Presidential Election thread: come for the anger, stay for the Hüsker Dü

Originally Posted by Bandoman View Post

I think you mean that people are trying to conflate the two. Trump is, in a subtle way.
It could be. That's why it's better to be accurate and not inflate an accusation with shades of linguistic perception, because the opponent will have justification in retorting the accusation and it will be valid.

We've seen this happening to an almost formulaic degree of other issues. Once politicians get their hands on something, they instantly put a coat of generic paint on it...then tell their supporters there is no other color of paint which can substitute, and the disinformation spreads. And I do say DISINFORMATION. Because politicians like Paul Ryan and Hillary Clinton know damn well what the word "racist" is, and they know damn well Trump is not it. It's FOR EFFECT. If they called Trump prejudiced...well, that's just not bad enough. It doesn't have any shock value. And that's what it's all about. Shock value. Political value.

Same goes for some extremist Republicans calling abortion murder. It is not. Anyone with half a brain would know it's not. But if you're being lied to on purpose, over and over, you tend to believe it eventually.
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Old 06-11-16, 06:58 PM
  #16520  
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Re: The 2016 Presidential Election thread: come for the anger, stay for the Hüsker Dü

Yes, but there is fire which causes the smoke in this instance. And if people don't get hung up on the difference between "racist" and "prejudiced", who do you thing suffers? Clinton? Not likely.
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Old 06-11-16, 07:36 PM
  #16521  
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Re: The 2016 Presidential Election thread: come for the anger, stay for the Hüsker Dü

Well we're off of the Mexican Judge but now back to Pocahontas... lol... I guess that's an improvement. It's the small victories...
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Old 06-11-16, 07:48 PM
  #16522  
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Re: The 2016 Presidential Election thread: come for the anger, stay for the Hüsker Dü

Yay, let's denigrate Native Americans now!
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Old 06-11-16, 07:49 PM
  #16523  
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Re: The 2016 Presidential Election thread: come for the anger, stay for the Hüsker Dü

This is what Trump supporters think of Hillary:

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Old 06-11-16, 08:10 PM
  #16524  
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Re: The 2016 Presidential Election thread: come for the anger, stay for the Hüsker Dü

Originally Posted by Sean O'Hara View Post
You don't think neoliberalism was a sellout that pushed the Democrats rightward and embraced a lot of bad policies in the '80s and '90s which are coming back to haunt us today?
Before I answer, can we define terms -- when you say neoliberalism, what policy positions are you describing?
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Old 06-11-16, 08:25 PM
  #16525  
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Re: The 2016 Presidential Election thread: come for the anger, stay for the Hüsker Dü

Originally Posted by Bandoman View Post
So he's not racist. He's just prejudiced.

When you have to resort to arguing the definition of "racism", you've already lost the argument.
A racist will shout a racial slur a black person walking down the street. A prejudiced person just wants to.
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