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-   -   The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread (https://forum.dvdtalk.com/religion-politics-world-events/597561-cops-behaving-badly-thread.html)

sracer 05-04-21 08:55 AM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 

Originally Posted by Draven (Post 13929403)
But it's a problem across the country in many departments. Just because there isn't a line in the training manual that says "arrest more black people" doesn't mean it's not a problem inherent in the very concept of policing.

If your sole purpose is to be a shock troop to keep the community in line, and you spend most of your time in one particular community harassing, beating and shooting those people, you don't get to blame poverty :shrug:

By using poor neighborhoods as an example, it is easy to hide racial bias under the covering of "poor areas are more susceptible to criminal behavior". That argument falls apart when a person of color is stopped by law enforcement simply for walking in a more affluent (and predominantly white) neighborhood.

fujishig 05-04-21 08:59 AM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 

Originally Posted by B5Erik (Post 13929364)
Sorry if I take a word literally - systemic, to the way I've always read it, was an official part of the system. If that's not an accurate definition (a word that means something slightly different from what it appears to mean), then that's fine - have at it.

My point still stands - violence against minorities and targeting them is not an offcial part of the system. It is a by-product of cops on the street going by what they see. What they see are people at the lower end of the economic spectrum who commit more violent crimes per capita that people at higher levels of the economic spectrum do. And because minorities are generally hit harder by poverty they do have a higher violent crime rate than whites do. It's not because they're inferior or bad people - it's just economics.

So, ultimately, solving the crime problem comes down, in part, to solving the poverty problem. I've always said, money is the driving force in lot of stuff. Having it gives people privilege, while not having it drives some people to take risky or desperate actions.

Having said all that, cops should NEVER resort to shooting people because of their ethnic background. It's completely unfair and unacceptable for a cop to shoot someone without giving them a chance to surrender, and excessive force is inexcusable (once a suspect is subdued and is no longer any kind of threat, there is no legitimate reason to continue to apply force).

While I support the police, in general, I absolutely recognize that there are problems within many departments that need to be stamped out. Better training, federal oversight, real accountablility - those are all things that need to happen.

So poor people commit more crimes. Minorities are generally poorer. So they treat minorities differently. Do you know what we call treating people differently because of inherent biases related to "what we see?"

"You're not inferior or bad, it's just economics."

B5Erik 05-04-21 10:52 AM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 

Originally Posted by fujishig (Post 13929421)
So poor people commit more crimes. Minorities are generally poorer. So they treat minorities differently. Do you know what we call treating people differently because of inherent biases related to "what we see?"

"You're not inferior or bad, it's just economics."

White people living in poverty commit more crimes, too.

It's not an ethnic or racial thing - it really is economics that drives violent crime.

fujishig 05-04-21 10:57 AM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 

Originally Posted by B5Erik (Post 13929471)
White people living in poverty commit more crimes, too.

It's not an ethnic or racial thing - it really is economics that drives violent crime.

You said that people in poverty in general commit more crimes. Many of the people in poverty are minorities. Police see a minority and they assume they will commit a crime. Heck, take the race part out of it, if police see an impoverished person and assume they will commit a crime or be more violent, that's also very bad. I don't care what they see. You are making an excuse for them profiling.

You can say that that's not baked into the system, it's a sad byproduct of it. Maybe even it's "kind of unfortunate." And again, it's much more important to people of color than it is to you because of, well, reasons.

B5Erik 05-04-21 11:13 AM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 

Originally Posted by fujishig (Post 13929474)
You said that people in poverty in general commit more crimes. Many of the people in poverty are minorities. Police see a minority and they assume they will commit a crime. Heck, take the race part out of it, if police see an impoverished person and assume they will commit a crime or be more violent, that's also very bad. I don't care what they see. You are making an excuse for them profiling.

You can say that that's not baked into the system, it's a sad byproduct of it. Maybe even it's "kind of unfortunate." And again, it's much more important to people of color than it is to you because of, well, reasons.

It's important to me, too.

But I don't want the police force neutered to make them politically correct. You can go too far with reform, sometimes. The pendulum swinging too far the other way, rather than finding that balance in the middle.

I get how hard it is in urban areas to be a police officer. I wouldn't want that job, and I appreciate those that take it.

But training needs to change, oversight needs to be put in place, and a better job of vetting applicants needs to be done. And in some departments a full housecleaning needs to happen as well (no, not everyone getting fired, but a full review and evaluation of everyone needs to be done, allowing for the removal of those who are part of the problem).

spainlinx0 05-04-21 11:16 AM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 
It really is pointless to continue this discussion with certain individuals when they literally deny there is systemic racism because of their own made up dictionary definitions. Not even arguing dictionary definitions, but their own interpretation of what a word should mean.

inri222 05-04-21 11:17 AM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 
https://www.nyclu.org/en/stop-and-frisk-data

NYACLU STOP-AND-FRISK DATA

In NYC where whites are still the majority, why is it that they are stopped the least?
Definitely not a racial or ethnic thing. :sarcasm:

New York City Demographics

2018 American Community Survey Race and ethnicity makeup of NYC
White   - 42.7%
Hispanic or Latino (of any race)   - 29.1%
Black or African American   - 24.3%
Asian   - 13.9%








B5Erik 05-04-21 11:28 AM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 

Originally Posted by spainlinx0 (Post 13929479)
It really is pointless to continue this discussion with certain individuals when they literally deny there is systemic racism because of their own made up dictionary definitions. Not even arguing dictionary definitions, but their own interpretation of what a word should mean.

I'm not arguing it. I said if I was wrong in my interpretation of the word then I was wrong. I explained WHY I thought the word meant something different, but I accepted the definitioin as presented and stood corrected.

B5Erik 05-04-21 11:29 AM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 

Originally Posted by inri222 (Post 13929481)
https://www.nyclu.org/en/stop-and-frisk-data

NYACLU STOP-AND-FRISK DATA

In NYC where whites are still the majority, why is it that they are stopped the least?
Definitely not a racial or ethnic thing. :sarcasm:

New York City Demographics

2018 American Community Survey Race and ethnicity makeup of NYC
White   - 42.7%
Hispanic or Latino (of any race)   - 29.1%
Black or African American   - 24.3%
Asian   - 13.9%

Could it be based on the statistics of who commits the most crimes?

Like I said, who commits the most crimes is dependent on economics more than anything else, so reducing poverty reduces crime.

Draven 05-04-21 12:27 PM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 

Originally Posted by B5Erik (Post 13929488)
Could it be based on the statistics of who commits the most crimes?

Like I said, who commits the most crimes is dependent on economics more than anything else, so reducing poverty reduces crime.

No, we've already disproven that.

Again I go back to the marijuana stats - whites and blacks break the law with regard to marijuana at a roughly equal amount per population. Black people are up to 4 times more likely to get busted for it.

It's really simple - cops pull over more black people, so they find more drugs on black people. If there are 100 drivers, 75 white and 25 black, and the cops pull over 20 black drivers and 10 white drivers for not signaling a lane change and then search their cars, of course they will find more drugs and make more arrests of black people. They're letting all the white drivers with drugs continue on their way!

And it's not isolated to one department - it's across the country. Cops look in a car, see a minority, and make a judgement. That's systemic to policing in this country. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy - if you hassle minorities more than white people, naturally you're going to find more crime among the minority population. They are literally ignoring what the white people do.

That's how Kyle Rittenhouse can walk past a group of cops after shooting two people with an AR-15 while an unarmed black man with his hands up is shot immediately. The cops expect the black guy to be a criminal over the white guy.

Notice how you don't see nearly as many open-carry advocates from minority communities? That's because they know that Barney Fife will blow them away.

B5Erik 05-04-21 12:32 PM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 

Originally Posted by Draven (Post 13929518)
No, we've already disproven that.

Again I go back to the marijuana stats - whites and blacks break the law with regard to marijuana at a roughly equal amount per population. Black people are up to 4 times more likely to get busted for it.

It's really simple - cops pull over more black people, so they find more drugs on black people. If there are 100 drivers, 75 white and 25 black, and the cops pull over 20 black drivers and 10 white drivers for not signaling a lane change and then search their cars, of course they will find more drugs and make more arrests of black people. They're letting all the white drivers with drugs continue on their way!

And it's not isolated to one department - it's across the country. Cops look in a car, see a minority, and make a judgement. That's systemic to policing in this country. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy - if you hassle minorities more than white people, naturally you're going to find more crime among the minority population. They are literally ignoring what the white people do.

That's how Kyle Rittenhouse can walk past a group of cops after shooting two people with an AR-15 while an unarmed black man with his hands up is shot immediately. The cops expect the black guy to be a criminal over the white guy.

Notice how you don't see nearly as many open-carry advocates from minority communities? That's because they know that Barney Fife will blow them away.

We're talking about two different things.

I'm talking violent crime (or serious property crime like burglary). You're talking about non-violent drug crime.

Draven 05-04-21 12:45 PM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 

Originally Posted by B5Erik (Post 13929520)
We're talking about two different things.

I'm talking violent crime (or serious property crime like burglary). You're talking about non-violent drug crime.

I'm talking about policing in general. You said racism is not systemic to policing. I think it is. And you see it at every level, from low-level offenses to violent crimes.

B5Erik 05-04-21 01:44 PM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 

Originally Posted by Draven (Post 13929530)
I'm talking about policing in general. You said racism is not systemic to policing. I think it is. And you see it at every level, from low-level offenses to violent crimes.

Racism is and isn't systemic to policing.

Not all departments are the same. Some are very good and don't have systemic racism,. some aren't good and do have systemic racism. You can't paint with a broad brush and say that all policing is the same. It isn't.

Draven 05-04-21 03:13 PM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 

Originally Posted by B5Erik (Post 13929563)
Racism is and isn't systemic to policing.

Not all departments are the same. Some are very good and don't have systemic racism,. some aren't good and do have systemic racism. You can't paint with a broad brush and say that all policing is the same. It isn't.

Sure it is. It's designed to protect white people over minorities across the board. You see it all over the country in red and blue states.

B5Erik 05-04-21 03:18 PM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 

Originally Posted by Draven (Post 13929603)
Sure it is. It's designed to protect white people over minorities across the board.

That's simply not true. It is not DESIGNED that way. It's worked out that way with a lot of departments, but the laws don't allow them to design departments that way.

Imagine people painting minorities with that kind of broad brush - you'd lose your shit. But because it's cops you're OK with it.

Giantrobo 05-04-21 04:07 PM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 

Originally Posted by B5Erik (Post 13929606)
That's simply not true. It is not DESIGNED that way. It's worked out that way with a lot of departments, but the laws don't allow them to design departments that way.

Imagine people painting minorities with that kind of broad brush - you'd lose your shit. But because it's cops you're OK with it.

It's deeper than just the Cops though. It's the whole Legal System from top to bottom. Cops are just the Street Soldiers/Strong Arms who enforce the System...

spainlinx0 05-04-21 04:41 PM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 
Stop acting like we can’t stereotype cops. It’s a profession, not a fucking skin color you’re born with.

B5Erik 05-04-21 04:52 PM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 

Originally Posted by Giantrobo (Post 13929626)
It's deeper than just the Cops though. It's the whole Legal System from top to bottom. Cops are just the Street Soldiers/Strong Arms who enforce the System...

But without that system we've got anarchy and mob rule, which is far worse than what we've got today.

Reform IS needed (as I've mentioned multiple times), but I don't see cops, in general, as the bad guys. They take the bad guys off the streets, which is a good thing. Do some cops behave like thugs with a badge? Absolutely, which is where greater oversight and accountability comes in (as well as modified training and better vetting of candidates).


B5Erik 05-04-21 04:53 PM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 

Originally Posted by spainlinx0 (Post 13929645)
Stop acting like we canít stereotype cops. Itís a profession, not a fucking skin color youíre born with.

Neither stereotype is fair or accurate. Every group has its misbehavors.

fujishig 05-04-21 04:55 PM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 

Originally Posted by B5Erik (Post 13929651)
But without that system we've got anarchy and mob rule, which is far worse than what we've got today.

Reform IS needed (as I've mentioned multiple times), but I don't see cops, in general, as the bad guys. They take the bad guys off the streets, which is a good thing. Do some cops behave like thugs with a badge? Absolutely, which is where greater oversight and accountability comes in (as well as modified training and better vetting of candidates).

So again:

If you're white and living in a McMansion in some suburb or a trailer park in flyover country, you're going to see police violence against white people as distasteful, and even horrific at times, but, ultimately, you see the police acting on your behalf. You're sleeping peacefully in your bed because the Derek Chauvins of the world are out there protecting you, and you're not inclined to question the manner or methods of that protection. Excessive force, even when it turns lethal, is tolerated. Sure, the cops pepper spraying that black soldier and pulled him out of his car because he was afraid they were going to kill him was kind of unfortunate, but, when push comes to shove, you're grateful there are men like that out there doing violence on your behalf.
for some reason I keep thinking of that honest trailers guy going "barely an inconvenience." And I realize you recognize there are bad cops, but you fear the mob more.

Nesbit 05-04-21 05:44 PM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 

Originally Posted by B5Erik (Post 13929652)
Neither stereotype is fair or accurate. Every group has its misbehavors.

Every cop is fine with being associated with cops and their behavior. It's a choice they make.

B5Erik 05-04-21 05:47 PM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 

Originally Posted by fujishig (Post 13929654)
So again:


for some reason I keep thinking of that honest trailers guy going "barely an inconvenience." And I realize you recognize there are bad cops, but you fear the mob more.

Of course. Any sane person would. Imagine the mob without consequences for their actions. The police are the only ones keeping that from happening.

Draven 05-04-21 08:40 PM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 

Originally Posted by B5Erik (Post 13929675)
Of course. Any sane person would. Imagine the mob without consequences for their actions. The police are the only ones keeping that from happening.

God, the world you live inÖ

spainlinx0 05-04-21 09:17 PM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 
Seriously, his barbarians are at the gates mindset is hilarious.

B5Erik 05-04-21 09:55 PM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 

Originally Posted by Draven (Post 13929746)
God, the world you live in…

A world where people, knowing that there COULD be serious consequences for their actions, abuse women, children, and anmials. A world where people steal from their neighbors. A world where people physically attack others for cutting them off on the freeway. A world where people kill other people for a few dollars worth of stuff.

The real world.

Now imagine that world without law enforcement. NO consequences. It would become infinitely worse.


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