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-   -   The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread (https://forum.dvdtalk.com/religion-politics-world-events/597561-cops-behaving-badly-thread.html)

Josh-da-man 05-03-21 04:41 AM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 
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fujishig 05-03-21 08:52 AM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 

Originally Posted by Josh-da-man (Post 13927417)
White America will get fed up with police abuse when, and only when, they feel that the police are no longer out there busting heads on their behalf.

To understand what Joe White from Middle America thinks about police (and police abuse and excessive force), I'm going to present two quotes:

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -- (Falsely attributed to) George Orwell

"Son, we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lieutenant Weinberg? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for Santiago and you curse the Marines. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that Santiago's death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives! You don't want the truth, because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall. You need me on that wall. We use words like 'honor,' 'code,' 'loyalty.' We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline! I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it! I would rather you just said 'thank you,' and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a DAMN what you think you are entitled to!" -- Colonel Jessup, A Few Good Men


So, yeah, white people from the suburbs and the sticks don't have the same reaction to seeing Daniel Shaver get his head blown off with an AR-15 while he's begging for his life in a hotel hallway than the black people living in the inner cities do when they see Derek Chauvin slowly choke out George Floyd while he's begging for his life. (If you don't know about Daniel Shaver, look up the videos.)

If you're white and living in a McMansion in some suburb or a trailer park in flyover country, you're going to see police violence against white people as distasteful, and even horrific at times, but, ultimately, you see the police acting on your behalf. You're sleeping peacefully in your bed because the Derek Chauvins of the world are out there protecting you, and you're not inclined to question the manner or methods of that protection. Excessive force, even when it turns lethal, is tolerated. Sure, the cops pepper spraying that black soldier and pulled him out of his car because he was afraid they were going to kill him was kind of unfortunate, but, when push comes to shove, you're grateful there are men like that out there doing violence on your behalf.

But if you're black or Latino, then the police aren't out there acting on your behalf. They are only there to keep you in line. They are there to protect those McMansions from people like you. They couldn't care less whether you live or die. They're there to choke, beat, shoot, and kill you when you step out of line. Or even before you step out of line.

Take that Colonel Jessup quote, change a few words, and see how easily it fits into the the belief system of the Blue Live Matter crowd and their blue-line flags:

Son, we live in a world that has streets, and those streets have to be guarded by men with guns. Who's gonna do it? You? The nebbish CPA who lives next door to you? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for George Floyd and you curse the police. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that George Floyd's death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives! You don't want the truth, because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on those streets. You need me on those streets. We use words like "honor", "code", "loyalty". We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline! I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very protection that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it! I would rather you just said "thank you", and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and protect your own neighborhood. Either way, I don't give a DAMN what you think you are entitled to!


Originally Posted by B5Erik (Post 13928857)
That's a pretty cynical view.

No, they're not your friends, nor should they be. Their job is to make it harder for bad people to do bad things, and to arrest them if they do those bad things. They're there, yes, to keep order and maintain a civilized society. Anarchy is not nearly as wonderful as some people think it is. And, in general, people suck.

A lot of people are very willing to do some very bad things. A lot more people are willing to do less bad, but still illegal things that can harm others (innocent victims) either physically or financially. There is a genuine need for the police. I wouldn't want to live in a society without a strong police presence. If the police were downsized, defunded, and had reduced firepower that would just give a green light to those bad people to do what they want to do. Maybe that's my cynical view, but every week I see people around me in a lower middle class neighborhood doing illegal things that make life less enjoyable for those around them. I can only wonder how far they'd go if they didn't have to worry about repercussions for their actions. And those are the supposed, "Good," people.

Just thought these posts should go one after another as "Example A"

B5Erik 05-03-21 10:46 AM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 

Originally Posted by fujishig (Post 13928910)
Just thought these posts should go one after another as "Example A"

Minorities living in shitty neighborhoods are the ones that would suffer the most if there were no police.

Violent crime has a high correlation with low economic status, so the people living in the most poverty are at the greatest risk of being victims of violent crime. Without the police arresting those committing those crimes more and more people would become victims of those violent criminals.

I do find it funny how people have this disdain for the police, and yet without the police violent crime would skyrocket.

That's not to say that many police departments don't desperately need reform, because they do, but they serve a much needed function in society.

fujishig 05-03-21 10:52 AM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 
Note that I didn't say that police aren't needed at all. Josh-da-man stated in that post why it might be that minorities view police differently from most of white America, who seem to have a higher tolerance for abuses as long as they believe the police are working on their behalf protecting them from the "bad guys."

JasonF 05-03-21 10:58 AM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 

Originally Posted by B5Erik (Post 13928977)
Minorities living in shitty neighborhoods are the ones that would suffer the most if there were no police.

Violent crime has a high correlation with low economic status, so the people living in the most poverty are at the greatest risk of being victims of violent crime. Without the police arresting those committing those crimes more and more people would become victims of those violent criminals.

I do find it funny how people have this disdain for the police, and yet without the police violent crime would skyrocket.

That's not to say that many police departments don't desperately need reform, because they do, but they serve a much needed function in society.

You're fighting against a straw man. Nobody is saying we donít need some sort of law enforcement. What many are saying is that the way we do law enforcement in this country is irreparably broken and needs to be completely rebuilt from the ground up.

Right now, you live at the indulgence of an occupying army. Tomorrow, some police officer could pull you over, decide that when you went to scratch an itch you were going for a gun, and shoot you dead. That officer would most likely suffer no consequences. Not going to prison and not even being taken off the street. You may be OK with that; I am not.

spainlinx0 05-03-21 11:05 AM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 
The only way Erik would ever understand what is being said here is if he or one of his children was hurt or killed by a cop. He has already shown that his understanding of issues doesn’t extend beyond his immediate family. As soon as something like that happened to him he’d be extolling defund the police nonstop, but not a second before that.

B5Erik 05-03-21 11:07 AM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 

Originally Posted by JasonF (Post 13928987)
You're fighting against a straw man. Nobody is saying we donít need some sort of law enforcement. What many are saying is that the way we do law enforcement in this country is irreparably broken and needs to be completely rebuilt from the ground up.

Right now, you live at the indulgence of an occupying army. Tomorrow, some police officer could pull you over, decide that when you went to scratch an itch you were going for a gun, and shoot you dead. That officer would most likely suffer no consequences. Not going to prison and not even being taken off the street. You may be OK with that; I am not.

I look at the other side of the equation. There are a LOT of bad people out there that are more likely to kill you than the cop who would arrest them would be.

Even a flawed police system is better than none. And it gives a place to start when it comes to improving how the police handle various situations.

I'm not opposed to police reform, in fact, I support it. But I don't believe in disarming the police (the bad guys are well armed), and I don't believe in turning the police force into a soft, touchy-feely group, either. The nature of the job requires police officers to be tough and able to use violence to stop violence. That's just a fact of life.

B5Erik 05-03-21 11:08 AM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 

Originally Posted by spainlinx0 (Post 13928991)
The only way Erik would ever understand what is being said here is if he or one of his children was hurt or killed by a cop. He has already shown that his understanding of issues doesnít extend beyond his immediate family. As soon as something like that happened to him heíd be extolling defund the police nonstop, but not a second before that.

Again, without the police it's minorities living in poverty who would be hurt the most. Violent crime has a strong correlation to economics and poverty.

fujishig 05-03-21 11:22 AM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 

Originally Posted by B5Erik (Post 13928993)
I look at the other side of the equation. There are a LOT of bad people out there that are more likely to kill you than the cop who would arrest them would be.

Even a flawed police system is better than none. And it gives a place to start when it comes to improving how the police handle various situations.

I'm not opposed to police reform, in fact, I support it. But I don't believe in disarming the police (the bad guys are well armed), and I don't believe in turning the police force into a soft, touchy-feely group, either. The nature of the job requires police officers to be tough and able to use violence to stop violence. That's just a fact of life.

Again, nobody here said that we want to get rid of the entire police system, so who are you arguing with?

So tell me this first part doesn't apply to you:

If you're white and living in a McMansion in some suburb or a trailer park in flyover country, you're going to see police violence against white people as distasteful, and even horrific at times, but, ultimately, you see the police acting on your behalf. You're sleeping peacefully in your bed because the Derek Chauvins of the world are out there protecting you, and you're not inclined to question the manner or methods of that protection. Excessive force, even when it turns lethal, is tolerated. Sure, the cops pepper spraying that black soldier and pulled him out of his car because he was afraid they were going to kill him was kind of unfortunate, but, when push comes to shove, you're grateful there are men like that out there doing violence on your behalf.

But if you're black or Latino, then the police aren't out there acting on your behalf. They are only there to keep you in line. They are there to protect those McMansions from people like you. They couldn't care less whether you live or die. They're there to choke, beat, shoot, and kill you when you step out of line. Or even before you step out of line.

B5Erik 05-03-21 11:27 AM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 

Originally Posted by fujishig (Post 13929004)
Again, nobody here said that we want to get rid of the entire police system, so who are you arguing with?

So tell me this first part doesn't apply to you:

It doesn't apply to me.

I despise cops who victimize innocent minorities. None of that is acceptable, even in the name of law and order.

spainlinx0 05-03-21 11:32 AM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 
And yet you make every excuse for them while spouting meaningless platitudes. Major reform is needed.

Draven 05-03-21 01:12 PM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 

Originally Posted by B5Erik (Post 13929007)
I despise cops who victimize innocent minorities. None of that is acceptable, even in the name of law and order.

So you despise cops? Because their whole system is designed to target and victimize minorities over white people.

B5Erik 05-03-21 01:15 PM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 

Originally Posted by Draven (Post 13929066)
So you despise cops? Because their whole system is designed to target and victimize minorities over white people.

No, it's not. And you know that. There may be some individual police departments where that is the unofficial policy (and they need to be dealt with, federally), but there isn't a system codified or officially designed to target and victimize minorities over white people.

Draven 05-03-21 01:19 PM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 

Originally Posted by B5Erik (Post 13929068)
No, it's not. And you know that. There may be some individual police departments where that is the unofficial policy (and they need to be dealt with, federally), but there isn't a system codified or officially designed to target and victimize minorities over white people.

Sure it is. I posted the stats about marijuana use - that wasn't per department, but policing in general. White and black people use at the same amount. Black people are busted for it as much as four times as much. And here's more about traffic stops:


“The first is that ‘driving while black’ is very much a thing; it’s everywhere and it’s not just a North Carolina or a Southern problem but across the United States,” Shoub says. “The second thing is that it appears to be more systemic than a few ‘bad apple’ officers engaged in racial profiling.”

Significant findings from Shoub’s and her colleagues’ analysis of the North Carolina dataset include:
  • Blacks were 63 percent more likely to be stopped even though, as a whole, they drive 16 percent less. Taking into account less time on the road, blacks were about 95 percent more likely to be stopped.
  • Blacks were 115 percent more likely than whites to be searched in a traffic stop (5.05 percent for blacks, 2.35 percent for whites).
  • Contraband was more likely to be found in searches of white drivers.
“So, black drivers were stopped disproportionately more than white drivers compared to the local population and were at least twice as likely to be searched, but they were slightly less likely to get a ticket,” Shoub says. “That correlates with the idea that black drivers were stopped on the pretext of having done something wrong, and when the officer doesn’t see in the car what he thought he might, he tells them to go on their way.”

For a separate paper entitled “Racial Disparities in Traffic Stop Outcomes,” Shoub and her co-authors gathered and analyzed traffic stop data from law enforcement agencies in 16 states, including Connecticut, Illinois, Maryland, Ohio and Vermont that pointed to similar disparities in the rate at which black drivers were stopped and searched compared to white drivers.
It's a nationwide problem, which means it's inherent in the system.

B5Erik 05-03-21 01:31 PM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 

Originally Posted by Draven (Post 13929072)
Sure it is. I posted the stats about marijuana use - that wasn't per department, but policing in general. White and black people use at the same amount. Black people are busted for it as much as four times as much. And here's more about traffic stops:

It's a nationwide problem, which means it's inherent in the system.

Just because a problem is widespread doesn't make it systemic. Systemic means it's written in the rules, that it's codified. These things most certainly aren't.

Now, people definitely should NOT be pulled over more often for the same thing (at a higher rate) than any other group. And if that happens, then the feds need to step in and set federally mandated guidelines to stop that practice, and to put consequences in place if those behaviors don't change.

But this stuff isn't official and it's not systemic. It's not an inherent part of the system, it is a part where the individuals are using different, personal criteria to decide how to enforce the law, and that isn't acceptable.

Draven 05-03-21 01:43 PM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 

Originally Posted by B5Erik (Post 13929088)
Systemic means it's written in the rules, that it's codified.

:lol: No it doesn't.

You think people fighting against systemic racism are fighting against rules that say "don't let black people do these things"?


The term institutional racism was first coined in 1967 by Stokely Carmichael and Charles V. Hamilton in Black Power: The Politics of Liberation.[2] Carmichael and Hamilton wrote that while individual racism is often identifiable because of its overt nature, institutional racism is less perceptible because of its "less overt, far more subtle" nature. Institutional racism "originates in the operation of established and respected forces in the society, and thus receives far less public condemnation than [individual racism]".[3]
And before you argue this definition, THEY CREATED THE TERM.

slop101 05-03-21 01:44 PM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 

Originally Posted by Draven (Post 13929072)
Sure it is. I posted the stats about marijuana use - that wasn't per department, but policing in general. White and black people use at the same amount. Black people are busted for it as much as four times as much. And here's more about traffic stops:



It's a nationwide problem, which means it's inherent in the system.

How could it not be inherent to the system, when the system started out as a racist one, "slave patrols" rounding up slaves (which later became the police force we know and love)?

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2...-of-the-police



JasonF 05-03-21 02:21 PM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 
Erik, "systemic" means "relating to a system, especially as opposed to a particular part." You're perhaps thinking of the difference between de jure and de facto.

If large numbers of police officers are engaging in violence against people, I don't care whether or not that's official policy. I don't even care if official policy is "Hey, don't beat the people you're arresting" if that policy is ineffective at preventing police from engaging in violence.

There is clearly a problem.

That problem clearly exists across the entire policing system in the United States.

This is not saying all police officers are evil. It is saying the system as a whole perpetrates evil, and it disproportionately perpetrates it against black and Latino people.

inri222 05-03-21 02:29 PM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 

Originally Posted by B5Erik (Post 13929088)
Systemic means it's written in the rules, that it's codified.

Thank you Lee Atwater. :sarcasm:

JasonX 05-03-21 02:29 PM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 

Originally Posted by B5Erik (Post 13929088)
Just because a problem is widespread doesn't make it systemic. Systemic means it's written in the rules, that it's codified. These things most certainly aren't.

Let's not be making up our own definitions now. From a few dictionaries:

Systemic
relating to a system, especially as opposed to a particular part.
: of, relating to, or common to a system: such as affecting the body generally

Let's try to stick to subjects and not to semantics. You can't say someone isn't correct because you make up your own meaning to things that don't match the accepted one. Poverty is systemic of capitalism; that doesn't mean there are rules requiring people to be in poverty.

JasonF 05-03-21 09:18 PM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 

Draven 05-03-21 09:35 PM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 

Originally Posted by JasonF (Post 13929317)

But how can you stop people from yelling mean things at you without shooting them in the face?!?!?!

B5Erik 05-04-21 01:05 AM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 

Originally Posted by JasonX (Post 13929119)
Let's not be making up our own definitions now. From a few dictionaries:

Systemic
relating to a system, especially as opposed to a particular part.
: of, relating to, or common to a system: such as affecting the body generally

Let's try to stick to subjects and not to semantics. You can't say someone isn't correct because you make up your own meaning to things that don't match the accepted one. Poverty is systemic of capitalism; that doesn't mean there are rules requiring people to be in poverty.

Sorry if I take a word literally - systemic, to the way I've always read it, was an official part of the system. If that's not an accurate definition (a word that means something slightly different from what it appears to mean), then that's fine - have at it.

My point still stands - violence against minorities and targeting them is not an offcial part of the system. It is a by-product of cops on the street going by what they see. What they see are people at the lower end of the economic spectrum who commit more violent crimes per capita that people at higher levels of the economic spectrum do. And because minorities are generally hit harder by poverty they do have a higher violent crime rate than whites do. It's not because they're inferior or bad people - it's just economics.

So, ultimately, solving the crime problem comes down, in part, to solving the poverty problem. I've always said, money is the driving force in lot of stuff. Having it gives people privilege, while not having it drives some people to take risky or desperate actions.

Having said all that, cops should NEVER resort to shooting people because of their ethnic background. It's completely unfair and unacceptable for a cop to shoot someone without giving them a chance to surrender, and excessive force is inexcusable (once a suspect is subdued and is no longer any kind of threat, there is no legitimate reason to continue to apply force).

While I support the police, in general, I absolutely recognize that there are problems within many departments that need to be stamped out. Better training, federal oversight, real accountablility - those are all things that need to happen.

Nick Danger 05-04-21 08:09 AM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 
Dictionary facts don't support you.

Draven 05-04-21 08:21 AM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 

Originally Posted by B5Erik (Post 13929364)
My point still stands - violence against minorities and targeting them is not an offcial part of the system. It is a by-product of cops on the street going by what they see. What they see are people at the lower end of the economic spectrum who commit more violent crimes per capita that people at higher levels of the economic spectrum do. And because minorities are generally hit harder by poverty they do have a higher violent crime rate than whites do. It's not because they're inferior or bad people - it's just economics.

But it's a problem across the country in many departments. Just because there isn't a line in the training manual that says "arrest more black people" doesn't mean it's not a problem inherent in the very concept of policing.

If your sole purpose is to be a shock troop to keep the community in line, and you spend most of your time in one particular community harassing, beating and shooting those people, you don't get to blame poverty :shrug:


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