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-   -   The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread (https://forum.dvdtalk.com/religion-politics-world-events/597561-cops-behaving-badly-thread.html)

Vibiana 04-28-21 05:12 PM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/dvdtalk...e5251f76b1.jpg

New Lurker 04-28-21 09:27 PM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 
Damn that's an idea I really like. It's outside the box, but safe for the community. Unless someone is committing / attempting murder or rape and fleeing, this is what should happen. There's zero reason to endanger innocent lives in stupid car chases or shoot outs over counterfeit bills or drugs or theft. Mark them, let them get away, find them later.

Norm de Plume 04-28-21 10:19 PM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 
It's a good idea until you take into account that many criminals use stolen cars during the commission of their crimes. They abandon the paintballed ride a few blocks away, vanish into the night, and no one is any the wiser as to their identities.

JasonF 04-28-21 11:29 PM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 

Coral 04-28-21 11:34 PM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 

Originally Posted by Norm de Plume (Post 13927370)
It's a good idea until you take into account that many criminals use stolen cars during the commission of their crimes. They abandon the paintballed ride a few blocks away, vanish into the night, and no one is any the wiser as to their identities.

Right, but they're not all stolen cars. And the ones that are, at least they're easier to spot by police elsewhere before they ditch the car. It also puts regular people on alert when they see this marked up car - which may lead to cellphone video of who they are or what direction they ran in, etc.

Nick Danger 04-28-21 11:37 PM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 
Japan has a 99% conviction rate, disturbingly high. So if the police arrest you for paintball splats on your car, you're probably going to prison. I hope you were the perpetrator.

Josh-da-man 04-29-21 05:19 AM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 

Originally Posted by Giantrobo (Post 13927173)
Sigh...they're abusing mentally challenged old white women. And laughing about it. I'm asking you White America...when will you get fed up with Cop abuse?

White America will get fed up with police abuse when, and only when, they feel that the police are no longer out there busting heads on their behalf.

To understand what Joe White from Middle America thinks about police (and police abuse and excessive force), I'm going to present two quotes:

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -- (Falsely attributed to) George Orwell

"Son, we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lieutenant Weinberg? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for Santiago and you curse the Marines. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that Santiago's death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives! You don't want the truth, because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall. You need me on that wall. We use words like 'honor,' 'code,' 'loyalty.' We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline! I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it! I would rather you just said 'thank you,' and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a DAMN what you think you are entitled to!" -- Colonel Jessup, A Few Good Men


So, yeah, white people from the suburbs and the sticks don't have the same reaction to seeing Daniel Shaver get his head blown off with an AR-15 while he's begging for his life in a hotel hallway than the black people living in the inner cities do when they see Derek Chauvin slowly choke out George Floyd while he's begging for his life. (If you don't know about Daniel Shaver, look up the videos.)

If you're white and living in a McMansion in some suburb or a trailer park in flyover country, you're going to see police violence against white people as distasteful, and even horrific at times, but, ultimately, you see the police acting on your behalf. You're sleeping peacefully in your bed because the Derek Chauvins of the world are out there protecting you, and you're not inclined to question the manner or methods of that protection. Excessive force, even when it turns lethal, is tolerated. Sure, the cops pepper spraying that black soldier and pulled him out of his car because he was afraid they were going to kill him was kind of unfortunate, but, when push comes to shove, you're grateful there are men like that out there doing violence on your behalf.

But if you're black or Latino, then the police aren't out there acting on your behalf. They are only there to keep you in line. They are there to protect those McMansions from people like you. They couldn't care less whether you live or die. They're there to choke, beat, shoot, and kill you when you step out of line. Or even before you step out of line.

Take that Colonel Jessup quote, change a few words, and see how easily it fits into the the belief system of the Blue Live Matter crowd and their blue-line flags:

Son, we live in a world that has streets, and those streets have to be guarded by men with guns. Who's gonna do it? You? The nebbish CPA who lives next door to you? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for George Floyd and you curse the police. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that George Floyd's death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives! You don't want the truth, because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on those streets. You need me on those streets. We use words like "honor", "code", "loyalty". We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline! I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very protection that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it! I would rather you just said "thank you", and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and protect your own neighborhood. Either way, I don't give a DAMN what you think you are entitled to!

spainlinx0 04-29-21 06:14 AM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 
And if you think that’s not true, go back and read B5Erik talk about the police. They keep him and his family safe, and they do a good job. He doesn’t care how the sausage is made.

cultshock 04-29-21 10:41 AM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 

Originally Posted by Nick Danger (Post 13927387)
Japan has a 99% conviction rate, disturbingly high. So if the police arrest you for paintball splats on your car, you're probably going to prison. I hope you were the perpetrator.

That is true, lots of coerced "confessions" happen in Japanese police interrogation rooms. Still, I'd prefer police spraying fleeing cars with paint rather than bullets (and not engage in dangerous high speed chases that can kill innocent bystanders).


New Lurker 04-29-21 12:06 PM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 

Originally Posted by Norm de Plume (Post 13927370)
It's a good idea until you take into account that many criminals use stolen cars during the commission of their crimes. They abandon the paintballed ride a few blocks away, vanish into the night, and no one is any the wiser as to their identities.

If you're using a stolen car chances are your crime rises pretty high up the chain. If you're just passing counterfeit bills or theft or buying drugs... you aren't using a stolen car for that. Stolen vehicles are predominantly for the higher level crimes, of which most rise to the level of being pursued. The crimes that don't rise to that level, the majority of them are not being done by stolen vehicles.

And regardless, I'm still okay with criminals passing counterfeit bills / buying drugs / petty theft / ect getting away with it vs being pursued at a high speed or a shoot out. Who cares if 30% of the criminals get away by dumping the stolen paintball car? 100% of innocent civilians would still be safe from random flying bullets or high speed cars crashing into them.

Draven 04-29-21 12:26 PM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 
If we don't pass laws or change tactics because criminals will just figure out a way around them then we'll never do anything.

Most criminals aren't like you see in the movies, with master plans and secret identities. That's why when people say "the cops can't let them go, do you think they'll just go home?" and the answer is YES, the criminals will probably just go home. Most people aren't able to disappear "off the grid" at a moments notice.

B5Erik 04-29-21 03:08 PM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 

Originally Posted by Draven (Post 13927537)
If we don't pass laws or change tactics because criminals will just figure out a way around them then we'll never do anything.

Most criminals aren't like you see in the movies, with master plans and secret identities. That's why when people say "the cops can't let them go, do you think they'll just go home?" and the answer is YES, the criminals will probably just go home. Most people aren't able to disappear "off the grid" at a moments notice.

They won't go home. They'll go to a friend or relative's house.

You'd have to be all time stupid to go home when you know that's the first place the cops will go to find you.

GoldenJCJ 04-29-21 03:32 PM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 

Originally Posted by B5Erik (Post 13927638)
They won't go home. They'll go to a friend or relative's house.

You'd have to be all time stupid to go home when you know that's the first place the cops will go to find you.

Eventually theyíll end up back home. It may not be that afternoon but it would most likely be within a couple of days. Like Draven said, these guys donít have a go-bag stashed in a safe place with thousands of dollars in cash and multiple fake passports to get out of the country.

I like the idea of shooting cars with paintballs but I wonder what the logistics of that are. How quick would a police officer have to be to get back to his/her car, grab the paintball gun and mark the fleeing car before itís out of sight? Would law enforcement be required to carry a paintball gun on them at all times? Iím not super familiar with paintball guns but do they make them any smaller than those CO2 guns with the giant-ass paintball container in the top? I donít see many cops wanting to keep one of those on them at all times.

Good idea though. Iíd like to see law enforcement implement that in some way. Although, if marking the vehicle to be found later is the goal, isnít that what license plates are for?

Draven 04-29-21 03:32 PM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 

Originally Posted by B5Erik (Post 13927638)
They won't go home. They'll go to a friend or relative's house.

You'd have to be all time stupid to go home when you know that's the first place the cops will go to find you.

You are SEVERELY overestimating the intelligence of an average criminal.


Draven 04-29-21 03:33 PM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 

Originally Posted by GoldenJCJ (Post 13927655)
I like the idea of shooting cars with paintballs but I wonder what the logistics of that are. How quick would a police officer have to be to get back to his/her car, grab the paintball gun and mark the fleeing car before itís out of sight? Would law enforcement be required to carry a paintball gun on them at all times? Iím not super familiar with paintball guns but do they make them any smaller than those CO2 guns with the giant-ass paintball container in the top? I donít see many cops wanting to keep one of those on them at all times.

I'm pretty sure they already have training pistols that shoot paintballs.



GoldenJCJ 04-29-21 03:37 PM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 

Originally Posted by Draven (Post 13927658)
I'm pretty sure they already have training pistols that shoot paintballs.

Hmm, possibly. I never used any when I was in training but Im sure other departments do.

Draven 04-29-21 03:59 PM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 

Originally Posted by GoldenJCJ (Post 13927660)
Hmm, possibly. I never used any when I was in training but Im sure other departments do.

I'd assume something like this would work.

leacha 04-29-21 04:10 PM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 

Originally Posted by GoldenJCJ (Post 13927045)
I mentioned this is another thread but this incident happens in my town, probably 5 minutes from my house. This is also EXACTLY what people are referring to when they talk about social workers being involved. Yet those ďIíd like to see a social worker do law enforcementís jobĒ people are nowhere to be found right now.

Yeah I'm in Centerra and when I saw the vid, it hits home a little harder.

GoldenJCJ 04-29-21 06:04 PM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 

Originally Posted by leacha (Post 13927682)
Yeah I'm in Centerra and when I saw the vid, it hits home a little harder.

Howdy neighbor! Iím in Thompson River Ranch.

I work with Loveland PD from time to time for work. I didnít recognize any of the officers involved in this case though. Itís disheartening for sure.

B5Erik 04-29-21 08:09 PM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 

Originally Posted by GoldenJCJ (Post 13927655)
Eventually theyíll end up back home. It may not be that afternoon but it would most likely be within a couple of days. Like Draven said, these guys donít have a go-bag stashed in a safe place with thousands of dollars in cash and multiple fake passports to get out of the country.

No kidding. rotfl

BUT they won't go home right away, and they won't do it when cops are there. Unless we're talking about a murder or rape suspect you won't have a stakeout, so the cops might go there once or twice a day for 5 minutes and leave. It would be easy to go home, make sure there aren't any cops there, get your important stuff, and leave - and then stay with family or a friend indefinitely.

It doesn't take brains to do that. But it would take incredible stupidity to go home right away, and even more stupidity to stay there.

Abob Teff 05-01-21 09:32 PM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 

Originally Posted by PerryD (Post 13927180)
I think the body cams is a great way for accountability. And I love that the security cameras in the police station were released. I would love to have body cam and vehicle cam footage be available online for every traffic stop. Then I could see whether or not I came to a "complete stop" or not at a stop sign when I got my last ticket rather than have to take the cop's word.

Someone mentioned before that we wouldn't let doctors practice medicine if they made mistakes that killed people, and I countered that we already do let them as they kill some 250,000 people a year from mistakes they make. Thinking about it, surgeons and staff should wear body cams also and cameras should be above each operating table, and footage be destroyed only after patient or families give consent.


You do realize that dash am or bodycam footage is evidence when you receive a traffic ticket, right? You can ask for that. I fought and won against a ticket that way (cop pulled over the wrong car).

Draven 05-02-21 01:15 AM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 
Huh. Maybe cops have NEVER been good?


spainlinx0 05-02-21 09:48 AM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 
I mean didn’t modern policing originate from slave catchers? They’ve never been about doing what’s right. They’re about maintaining order and authority. They’re not your friends. They’re the enforcement arm of the wealthy and elite.

B5Erik 05-02-21 11:54 PM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 

Originally Posted by spainlinx0 (Post 13928672)
I mean didnít modern policing originate from slave catchers? Theyíve never been about doing whatís right. Theyíre about maintaining order and authority. Theyíre not your friends. Theyíre the enforcement arm of the wealthy and elite.

That's a pretty cynical view.

No, they're not your friends, nor should they be. Their job is to make it harder for bad people to do bad things, and to arrest them if they do those bad things. They're there, yes, to keep order and maintain a civilized society. Anarchy is not nearly as wonderful as some people think it is. And, in general, people suck.

A lot of people are very willing to do some very bad things. A lot more people are willing to do less bad, but still illegal things that can harm others (innocent victims) either physically or financially. There is a genuine need for the police. I wouldn't want to live in a society without a strong police presence. If the police were downsized, defunded, and had reduced firepower that would just give a green light to those bad people to do what they want to do. Maybe that's my cynical view, but every week I see people around me in a lower middle class neighborhood doing illegal things that make life less enjoyable for those around them. I can only wonder how far they'd go if they didn't have to worry about repercussions for their actions. And those are the supposed, "Good," people.

JasonF 05-03-21 12:52 AM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 

Originally Posted by B5Erik (Post 13928857)
That's a pretty cynical view.

No, they're not your friends, nor should they be. Their job is to make it harder for bad people to do bad things, and to arrest them if they do those bad things. They're there, yes, to keep order and maintain a civilized society. Anarchy is not nearly as wonderful as some people think it is. And, in general, people suck.

And you call spainlinx's view cynical?

As a factual matter, spainlinx is 100% correct that modern policing evolved, in part, from slave catching.

As for the police being our friends, they absolutely are not. That doesn't mean they couldn't be. These are the principles that drive policing in the Commonwealth countries (UK, Canada, Australia, etc.):

  1. To prevent crime and disorder, as an alternative to their repression by military force and severity of legal punishment.
  2. To recognise always that the power of the police to fulfill their functions and duties is dependent on public approval of their existence, actions and behaviour, and on their ability to secure and maintain public respect.
  3. To recognise always that to secure and maintain the respect and approval of the public means also the securing of the willing co-operation of the public in the task of securing observance of laws.
  4. To recognise always that the extent to which the co-operation of the public can be secured diminishes proportionately the necessity of the use of physical force and compulsion for achieving police objectives.
  5. To seek and preserve public favour, not by pandering to public opinion, but by constantly demonstrating absolutely impartial service to law, in complete independence of policy, and without regard to the justice or injustice of the substance of individual laws, by ready offering of individual service and friendship to all members of the public without regard to their wealth or social standing, by ready exercise of courtesy and friendly good humour, and by ready offering of individual sacrifice in protecting and preserving life.
  6. To use physical force only when the exercise of persuasion, advice and warning is found to be insufficient to obtain public co-operation to an extent necessary to secure observance of law or to restore order, and to use only the minimum degree of physical force which is necessary on any particular occasion for achieving a police objective.
  7. To maintain at all times a relationship with the public that gives reality to the historic tradition that the police are the public and that the public are the police, the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full-time attention to duties which are incumbent on every citizen in the interests of community welfare and existence.
  8. To recognise always the need for strict adherence to police-executive functions, and to refrain from even seeming to usurp the powers of the judiciary of avenging individuals or the State, and of authoritatively judging guilt and punishing the guilty.
  9. To recognise always that the test of police efficiency is the absence of crime and disorder, and not the visible evidence of police action in dealing with them.

These principles seem far more in line with the American values of governance by consent of the governed ("government of the people, by the people, and for the people") as well as our veneration of liberty and freedom.

When you tell the police force to look at the world through the lens of "some of these people are good and some of them are bad and your job is to discern which are which and shield the bad from the good" you sow the seeds of a police force that views itself as an occupying army at war with many of the very citizens they are supposed to be protecting and serving. It's a toxic and corrupting way to approach policing.


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