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-   -   The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread (https://forum.dvdtalk.com/religion-politics-world-events/597561-cops-behaving-badly-thread.html)

JimRochester 01-07-16 06:11 AM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 
Not even discussing this instance, but in general, some areas consider getting the person out of the car safer because you are getting them away from any weapons that might be within easy reach. Around us, we feel leaving the person in the car is safer, even going so far as to direct the person to get back in the car if they get out. If they do have a weapon in the car, there is still car between the officer and the driver. If the driver wants to chase the officer he has to clumsily get out of the car quickly. If you're asked to get out of the car around here, you're probably being arrested. So just because an officer does one or the other doesn't matter unless it deviates from what they normally do.


Even in this area there is debate about what is safer, approaching from the drivers side or the passenger side. Passenger side gives a better view of what the driver is doing but gives him a clearer shot if he tries something. Drivers side is the opposite since the officer is approaching over the drivers shoulder.

inri222 01-08-16 03:37 PM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 
A year and a half later

New York Police Sergeant to Face Internal Charges in Eric Garner Confrontation

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/09/ny...tion.html?_r=0

Hokeyboy 01-08-16 08:04 PM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 
Just another one of them isolated incidents...

Florida woman dies in parking lot after police forcibly remove her from hospital

CaptainMarvel 01-08-16 08:47 PM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 

Originally Posted by Hokeyboy (Post 12691307)

Buuuuuuuullshit. She was at the hospital. A doctor saw her and discharged her, stating she wasn't in medical distress. She refused to leave.

slop101 01-09-16 01:54 AM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 

Originally Posted by CaptainMarvel (Post 12691326)
Buuuuuuuullshit. She was at the hospital. A doctor saw her and discharged her, stating she wasn't in medical distress. She refused to leave.

You saying the cops killed her on their way to the parking lot?

Draven 01-09-16 04:17 AM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 

Originally Posted by CaptainMarvel (Post 12691326)
Buuuuuuuullshit. She was at the hospital. A doctor saw her and discharged her, stating she wasn't in medical distress. She refused to leave.


Tadlock wrote in his police report that he assumed she was just being difficult and “intentionally noncompliant.” Blountstown Police Chief Mark Mallory defended Tadlock by saying Tadlock isn’t a medical professional and did what he was supposed to do.
Sounds like he was making some medical judgments to me. And considering she then DIED, it sounds like everyone involved fucked up pretty badly, wouldn't you say?

CaptainMarvel 01-09-16 06:19 AM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 

Originally Posted by Draven (Post 12691471)
Sounds like he was making some medical judgments to me. And considering she then DIED, it sounds like everyone involved fucked up pretty badly, wouldn't you say?

No, I wouldn't. The medical professionals had already said there was nothing wrong with her. Him relying on their assessment is not the same as him making his own medical judgment.

From a little less inflammatory source (http://www.cnn.com/2016/01/07/us/flo...spital-dies/):



Crump said Dawson had previously gone to Calhoun Liberty Hospital and once been told to leave when she tried to bring someone else in for treatment.

WTXL said incident reports showed police were called by hospital staff multiple times since 2006 in reference to alleged disturbances involving Dawson.

...

But it's clear from the audio that the officer believes she just doesn't want to leave. The officer, who later called Dawson "noncompliant," asked staff to keep checking her. And he speaks to Dawson, who doesn't answer.

...

At another point, a woman can be heard saying, "Ms. Dawson, come on now. There ain't nothing wrong with you."

Several times, someone can be heard giving updates on the woman's vital signs and saying she is OK.
I'm sorry, but if you have medical professionals who have assessed her and who are saying, "she's fine; there's nothing wrong with her; please make her leave", it's bullshit to take their fuckup and make it into a "bad cop" issue.

Lt Ripley 01-09-16 07:50 AM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 
Wow. Didn't watch the vid, but simple blood tests could have shown what was going on. A D-dimer, ABGs and more, plus an EKG and Triponin to look for MI. Quick and easy.

Solid Snake 01-09-16 08:59 AM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 

Originally Posted by Lt Ripley (Post 12691498)
Wow. Didn't watch the vid, but simple blood tests could have shown what was going on. A D-dimer, ABGs and more, plus an EKG and Triponin to look for MI. Quick and easy.

D-dimer? ABGs, EKG, MI? Jesus. I need to really give a damn about this thread if I need to understand some of this shit. Damn me for not popping in here more often.

EinCB 01-10-16 02:31 AM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 
My apologies if this is a re-post. This isn't a cop behaving badly necessarily, but to show that the Bill of Rights for an officer is superior compared to that of a civilian's.


The problems of the teacher tenure system, especially in big cities where powerful unions defend members against dismissal, are familiar enough. Less well known is the newer, parallel–and arguably more alarming–rise of police and prison-guard tenure under what are known as Law Enforcement Officers Bill of Rights (LEOBR or LEOBOR) laws.

Baltimore Mayor Stephanie Rawlings-Blake, for example, has blamed Maryland’s LEOBR law for frustrating the investigation into the death of Freddie Gray while in police custody. Maryland’s law provides that after an incident superiors cannot question an officer without the presence of a lawyer of the officer’s choosing, and that officers have 10 days to line up such representation. Critics say that by the time those suspected of misbehavior have to commit to a story, they will have had ample opportunity to consult with others about what to say. Most of the officers present have cooperated with the investigation of Gray’s death, the city says, but at least one has not.
http://www.cato.org/blog/police-misc...rs-bill-rights

Lt Ripley 01-10-16 07:03 AM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 

Originally Posted by Solid Snake (Post 12691522)
D-dimer? ABGs, EKG, MI? Jesus. I need to really give a damn about this thread if I need to understand some of this shit. Damn me for not popping in here more often.

Ingredients of the special Long Island Iced Teas.

DVD Polizei 01-10-16 11:22 AM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 

Originally Posted by Draven (Post 12691471)
Sounds like he was making some medical judgments to me. And considering she then DIED, it sounds like everyone involved fucked up pretty badly, wouldn't you say?

The cop was making medical judgments based on the hospital. And thus, he had justification to act and remove her from that hospital.

You should be concentrating on Eric Garner's case which I think deserves much more attention, rather than being an advocate for crazy people running the administration of a hospital.

Did you ever think this woman worked herself up into a condition that resulted in her own death?

If you are stabilized. You will be discharged. Hospital space is golden these days, and I'm not sure if you've ever walked the floors of the ER, GI, Cardio floors of a hospital. I have. Nurses and doctors are prioritizing all the time, so people who ARE NOT STABILIZED, are being treated.

When a patient is stabilized (vitals are normally taken several times to prove this), and then acting like a dumbass an refusing to leave or cooperate, they are not helping themselves at all. All they are doing is assuring themselves a QUICKER DISCHARGE.

If this woman had any brains, she could have returned the hospital 30 minutes later, informing ER of the symptoms. Or even going to another hospital.

And the aunt who was with her at the time? She should have been smart enough to do as much and then accompanied her for another ER visit for potential admit. If you're nice and calm, you generally get what you want and avoid a lot of issue. Like death.

Dave99 01-10-16 11:27 AM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 

Originally Posted by Hokeyboy (Post 12691307)

This one is on the hospital staff, not the cops.

JimRochester 01-10-16 11:46 AM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 

Originally Posted by EinCB (Post 12692065)
My apologies if this is a re-post. This isn't a cop behaving badly necessarily, but to show that the Bill of Rights for an officer is superior compared to that of a civilian's.



http://www.cato.org/blog/police-misc...rs-bill-rights

A civilian is not required to speak to the police at all. Therefore there is no timeframe, giving them ample time to discuss with others what to say. If they choose to speak, they have the right to an attorney of their choosing.

If the 10 day provision for police raises eyebrows, I would lobby to change the law, however calling it superior to a civilian is factually incorrect.

Lt Ripley 01-10-16 12:48 PM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 

Originally Posted by DVD Polizei (Post 12692219)
The cop was making medical judgments based on the hospital. And thus, he had justification to act and remove her from that hospital.

You should be concentrating on Eric Garner's case which I think deserves much more attention, rather than being an advocate for crazy people running the administration of a hospital.

Did you ever think this woman worked herself up into a condition that resulted in her own death?

If you are stabilized. You will be discharged. Hospital space is golden these days, and I'm not sure if you've ever walked the floors of the ER, GI, Cardio floors of a hospital. I have. Nurses and doctors are prioritizing all the time, so people who ARE NOT STABILIZED, are being treated.

When a patient is stabilized (vitals are normally taken several times to prove this), and then acting like a dumbass an refusing to leave or cooperate, they are not helping themselves at all. All they are doing is assuring themselves a QUICKER DISCHARGE.

If this woman had any brains, she could have returned the hospital 30 minutes later, informing ER of the symptoms. Or even going to another hospital.

And the aunt who was with her at the time? She should have been smart enough to do as much and then accompanied her for another ER visit for potential admit. If you're nice and calm, you generally get what you want and avoid a lot of issue. Like death.

Vital signs themselves DO NOT prove or disprove stability.

DVD Polizei 01-10-16 01:46 PM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 

Originally Posted by Lt Ripley (Post 12692287)
Vital signs themselves DO NOT prove or disprove stability.

Actually, it does. Vitals consists of a multitude of body readings. At minimum, you'd be looking at BP, temperature, pulse, respiratory rate and
oxygen saturation.

So, you're saying a hospital should have a policy if a patient "feels bad", they need to stay?

What if a patient says they feel just fine but your vital signs say different?

Taking vitals (hospitals use 5 or more) throughout a patient's stay is meant to track their progress and is a staple of demonstrating underlying issues. Of course this isn't the only way to prove stability, but just how many procedures do you want to conduct on a person before you can say with 100% certainty...a patient leaving your hospital is going to be ok.

Proving stability only means they should be ok. It is no guarantee.

Lt Ripley 01-10-16 09:52 PM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 
Actually it doesn't, and if you are getting this info from a friend or family member, please tell them that they are an idiot and a danger to the public. Plenty of peoples vitals are normal for them outside of the standard "normal ranges". Vitals are just minimal stats used to assist you in deciphering the bigger picture.

People having MIs, strokes, embolisms, etc can all, and often do have vitals within normal ranges. Vitals can fall suddenly further down the line as damage continues to ensue. That is when your education and board certifications come into play. You have been educated to assess even further. I can't believe I even have to explain that last sentence. Someone comes in complaining they can't breath and seems panicked or distressed, vitals show "normal" ranges, any fucking intelligent licensed individual that would like to keep their license and not face court, would want to get telemetry going. Check out if their are any type of blocks, etc going on. You DO NOT have to experience pain while having an MI, you can just feel like you can't breath. Again, any licensed person at this point would have wanted to get an EKG, to really get a good look at that heart, and some labs. These are just the minimal basics. If those hospital employees did not do those, they are fucked. If the hospital has some EKG readings, the blood labs, including the d-dimer, showing nothing wrong, those employees may be OK. Again, those are minimal things to do.

Someone stating that it feels like they can't breath, even though they are breathing and talking, have an O2 sat over 96%, RR of 18, HR of 95, T 98.8, and 0 pain, could be having an MI. Pain isn't a requirement of an MI. Drawing labs and obtaining an EKG are very quick. On this pt, they wouldn't have found an MI, but instead would have found she had a PE. Wow, who could have imagined that. All kinds of things fall together in the medical world.

Yes, a patient can leave the hospital if their vitals are out of their norm. It is called patient rights. If they they are mentally oriented, they sign the form absolving the hospital, and off they go.

Vital signs do not prove stability, they are just a generalized baseline. You are free to google to your hearts content. Kindergarten may teach you vitals, then as you move up each class, you keep learning you need more than just vitals.

Bummer this loon cried wolf too many times, but that does not mean that the ER should not have ruled out the problem. It takes more than vitals to rule out that problem.

Dave99 01-10-16 11:45 PM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 

Originally Posted by JimRochester (Post 12692239)
A civilian is not required to speak to the police at all. Therefore there is no timeframe, giving them ample time to discuss with others what to say. If they choose to speak, they have the right to an attorney of their choosing.

If the 10 day provision for police raises eyebrows, I would lobby to change the law, however calling it superior to a civilian is factually incorrect.

One aspect that is superior, at least in some areas, is the officer can defend themselves before the grand jury. That's obviously not available to regular folks.

EinCB 01-11-16 12:10 AM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 
Jim, it's true what you said about civilian not having to speak to an officer. However, I still believe an officer would have an easier time fighting a charge than a civilian. Considering the raised awareness of police brutality, I believe an officer would be highly aware of their rights as an officer compared to how much a civilian's knows about their own.

In addition to what Dave said, at least in Maryland, if someone interrogates an officer without a union member present, the charges get dismissed. For a civilian charged with a crime, they're told their Miranda Rights, but the charges do not get dismissed if they're being interrogated without a lawyer.

JimRochester 01-11-16 04:31 PM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 

Originally Posted by EinCB (Post 12692911)
Jim, it's true what you said about civilian not having to speak to an officer. However, I still believe an officer would have an easier time fighting a charge than a civilian. Considering the raised awareness of police brutality, I believe an officer would be highly aware of their rights as an officer compared to how much a civilian's knows about their own.

In addition to what Dave said, at least in Maryland, if someone interrogates an officer without a union member present, the charges get dismissed. For a civilian charged with a crime, they're told their Miranda Rights, but the charges do not get dismissed if they're being interrogated without a lawyer.

A police officer, attorney, or anyone intimately involved in the law would certainly have an advantage over a civilian. That's common sense. I hope my doctor knows more about doctoring than I do. That's why he can write prescriptions that civilians can't and that's why we call them. Not sure how you can penalize someone for knowledge of the system. Charges would not hold up if a civilian requested an attorney yet they did not accommodate. At the very least whatever he said could not be used in court.

Your initial post intimated that a police officer has a huge advantage over civilians that isn't so. They have the right of presumed innocence, right of representation by counsel just as you or I do. Now they generally do have to cooperate in order to keep their job. But this guy is more worried about a trial than keeping his job.

DVD Polizei 01-11-16 04:45 PM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 

Originally Posted by Lt Ripley (Post 12692811)
Actually it doesn't, and if you are getting this info from a friend or family member, please tell them that they are an idiot and a danger to the public. Plenty of peoples vitals are normal for them outside of the standard "normal ranges". Vitals are just minimal stats used to assist you in deciphering the bigger picture.

People having MIs, strokes, embolisms, etc can all, and often do have vitals within normal ranges. Vitals can fall suddenly further down the line as damage continues to ensue. That is when your education and board certifications come into play. You have been educated to assess even further. I can't believe I even have to explain that last sentence. Someone comes in complaining they can't breath and seems panicked or distressed, vitals show "normal" ranges, any fucking intelligent licensed individual that would like to keep their license and not face court, would want to get telemetry going. Check out if their are any type of blocks, etc going on. You DO NOT have to experience pain while having an MI, you can just feel like you can't breath. Again, any licensed person at this point would have wanted to get an EKG, to really get a good look at that heart, and some labs. These are just the minimal basics. If those hospital employees did not do those, they are fucked. If the hospital has some EKG readings, the blood labs, including the d-dimer, showing nothing wrong, those employees may be OK. Again, those are minimal things to do.

Someone stating that it feels like they can't breath, even though they are breathing and talking, have an O2 sat over 96%, RR of 18, HR of 95, T 98.8, and 0 pain, could be having an MI. Pain isn't a requirement of an MI. Drawing labs and obtaining an EKG are very quick. On this pt, they wouldn't have found an MI, but instead would have found she had a PE. Wow, who could have imagined that. All kinds of things fall together in the medical world.

Yes, a patient can leave the hospital if their vitals are out of their norm. It is called patient rights. If they they are mentally oriented, they sign the form absolving the hospital, and off they go.

Vital signs do not prove stability, they are just a generalized baseline. You are free to google to your hearts content. Kindergarten may teach you vitals, then as you move up each class, you keep learning you need more than just vitals.

Bummer this loon cried wolf too many times, but that does not mean that the ER should not have ruled out the problem. It takes more than vitals to rule out that problem.

Regarding the bolded text above, I did say previously: Proving stability only means they should be ok. It is no guarantee.

She was a loon. That's why they ruled her opinions out of the decision-making situation.

If you're a blood-thirsty lawyer, you can find anything wrong at some point within a hospital's personnel. I'm sure her family will get something just for filing paperwork, claiming wrongful death and/or malpractice.

Hey, they can sue the PD and the hospital and get a 2'fer.

Vitals prove you "should be ok" when you are discharged, and yes, I'll agree they don't prove everything. But what does? Every patient is unique. Every patient has symptoms which can be counter-indicative, etc.

You'll be using vitals along with any charts and med lists you get which follow the patient's movement in the system. These days, it shouldn't be too hard to see.

The real question is, did the hospital use reasonable assessment of a patient and is there any indication personnel was negligent in care. I don't see it from reading the online articles I skimmed.

---

Another point I'd like to make which I've observed personally. You can have somebody who claims be out of breath and dying every single time they come to ER, and every single time they are checked, they are physically fine. But then one day, they are assessed as fine and they die only 24hrs later of symptoms they claimed at the ER visit. So, was the patient correct all along or was it a coincidence.

Draven 01-11-16 05:33 PM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 

Originally Posted by DVD Polizei (Post 12693491)
The real question is, did the hospital use reasonable assessment of a patient and is there any indication personnel was negligent in care. I don't see it from reading the online articles I skimmed.

Well I can see how that would make you an expert.

EinCB 01-12-16 12:24 AM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 

Originally Posted by JimRochester (Post 12693480)

Your initial post intimated that a police officer has a huge advantage over civilians that isn't so. They have the right of presumed innocence, right of representation by counsel just as you or I do.

I suppose you're right. Instead of "superior," they're a little bit better than the rights us normal folk have.

Lt Ripley 01-12-16 07:50 AM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 
Polizei, yeah, if all they did were vital signs, there is negligence.

Every hospital has their group of frequent flyers.

Cusm 01-12-16 09:38 AM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 

Originally Posted by JimRochester (Post 12693480)
A police officer, attorney, or anyone intimately involved in the law would certainly have an advantage over a civilian. That's common sense. I hope my doctor knows more about doctoring than I do. That's why he can write prescriptions that civilians can't and that's why we call them. Not sure how you can penalize someone for knowledge of the system. Charges would not hold up if a civilian requested an attorney yet they did not accommodate. At the very least whatever he said could not be used in court.

Your initial post intimated that a police officer has a huge advantage over civilians that isn't so. They have the right of presumed innocence, right of representation by counsel just as you or I do. Now they generally do have to cooperate in order to keep their job. But this guy is more worried about a trial than keeping his job.


But the advantage they have is their colleagues won't try and screw them out of council. They don't get the we just want to talk, what are you trying to hide, we can't help you once you have an attorney. All of these we are all smart enough to ignore, maybe but most of us have never been in a situation like that and it could be daunting. A LEO though usually won't have that pressure and twisting by his brothers in blue.


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