DVD Talk Forum

DVD Talk Forum (https://forum.dvdtalk.com/)
-   Religion, Politics and World Events (https://forum.dvdtalk.com/religion-politics-world-events-47/)
-   -   The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread (https://forum.dvdtalk.com/religion-politics-world-events/597561-cops-behaving-badly-thread.html)

CaptainMarvel 11-24-15 07:10 PM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 

Originally Posted by Dave99 (Post 12653459)
The chicago video isn't as bad as expected (south carolina was worse to me), but still appears to be a bad shoot. I'm very skeptical they can get a 1st degree murder conviction here though.

Agreed. I can see a lesser homicide, but the prosecutor is likely going to lose if she tries an all or nothing.


Like many cases, there will likely be at least one juror who sticks with the 'police have a hard job and we can't judge them in hindsight' mentality.
Well since that's the law, good.

dan30oly 11-24-15 07:16 PM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 

Originally Posted by CaptainMarvel (Post 12653473)


Well since that's the law, good.

No. Because if I go into the jury box with a "no criminal can do wrong - because times are hard. Thanks Obama!!!!!!"

That's not right either - and possibly not legal.

Lt Ripley 11-24-15 07:26 PM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 

Originally Posted by van der graaf (Post 12653458)
right -rolleyes-

Think you took your location a little to literally. You're blinded by it's depth.

van der graaf 11-24-15 07:27 PM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 

Originally Posted by Lt Ripley (Post 12653485)
Think you took your location a little to literally. You're blinded by it's depth.

uh ĥuh. like you and ronda rousey, surely.

Lt Ripley 11-24-15 07:32 PM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 
I freely admit that I love that the hype machine got flattened. Fucking glorious!

Dave99 11-24-15 07:34 PM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 

Originally Posted by CaptainMarvel (Post 12653473)
Agreed. I can see a lesser homicide, but the prosecutor is likely going to lose if she tries an all or nothing.

I think with that case earlier this year where they went for involuntary manslaughter and it got dismissed from the bench because of their weird state supreme court decision, they figure they have to go big.

CaptainMarvel 11-24-15 07:35 PM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 

Originally Posted by dan30oly (Post 12653475)
No. Because if I go into the jury box with a "no criminal can do wrong - because times are hard. Thanks Obama!!!!!!"

That's not right either - and possibly not legal.

I'm not going to argue with you. The guiding precedent on police use of force literally says it has to be judged from the perspective of a reasonable officer on the scene, rather "than with the 20/20 vision of hindsight." So yeah, hopefully the jurors will indeed refuse to use hindsight.

It looks like a bad shoot. But the guy was acting like a nut, carrying a knife, and had already stabbed the tires of a police car. He was within the 21 foot zone, which is the danger zone with knives. I strongly suspect the prosecution is going to have a tough time with this one if they go for a 1st degree murder charge. If I'm reading Illinois law correctly, if the defendant can show:

At the time of the killing, he/she believed that the killing would have been lawfully justified but the belief was unreasonable.
then it will be 2nd degree murder.

wearetheborg 11-24-15 07:42 PM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 

Originally Posted by Why So Blu? (Post 12653461)
Just watched the video of the Chicago shooting. The pig is toast.

No way is that a justified shooting. Shot him 16 times. Not even at the same time. He shot him a bunch of times then the guy fell, the cop paused, then shot him some more.


Are you saying the first bunch of shots were justified, but not the second?

Dave99 11-24-15 08:10 PM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 
One other thing bugs me, which is according to the burger king (in the video would be off to the right), police came in and deleted their video of the event. Now that charges have been filed, shouldn't there be a destruction of evidence investigation against someone who was there?

VHS? 11-24-15 08:11 PM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 
I'm not a cop, but if someone points a knife at me, I think one shot that takes him down is sufficient enough. I dont see the justification for 15 more shots to a kid on the ground with bullet holes in him.
I'm pretty sure the first few killed him. No need to empty the clip. That's hate in a case of civilian vs civilian.

Artman 11-24-15 08:57 PM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 

Originally Posted by Why So Blu? (Post 12653461)
The pig is toast.

"Pigs in a blanket, fry like bacon!!" :banana:

Ranger 11-24-15 09:25 PM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 
Why are they still protesting the Chicago shooting? They already charged him.

I thought the cop shooting the little kids in Louisiana was worse. They charged the cops (city marshals) with 2nd degree murder. They claimed to be serving a warranty but investigators said there was no warrant issued and it seems that they shot up the wrong car.

at least a small town in Louisiana managed to put body cameras on their cops. What % of cops have body cameras now? I think only 60%?

Dave99 11-24-15 11:57 PM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 

Originally Posted by CaptainMarvel (Post 12653496)
He was within the 21 foot zone, which is the danger zone with knives.

Isn't the 21 foot rule for an officer not aware of a threat with a holstered weapon?

I think with 4-5 officers all with weapons drawn and ready for an attack, that radius should/would be substantially less.

Why So Blu? 11-25-15 02:56 AM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 

Originally Posted by wearetheborg (Post 12653501)
Are you saying the first bunch of shots were justified, but not the second?

No. I'm saying that the cop did not empty his clip at once. He shot the guy a bunch of times, paused, and then finished emptying his clip after the fact.

It's overkill. He's toast.

CaptainMarvel 11-25-15 05:54 AM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 

Originally Posted by Dave99 (Post 12653654)
Isn't the 21 foot rule for an officer not aware of a threat with a holstered weapon?

Typically, yes. The suspect is also starting from stationary, which we don't have either. That 21 ft rule is generally the minimum distance at which an officer will be able to draw and fire a single shot, not necessarily to stop the attack. It's not a "safe zone," is my point.

CaptainMarvel 11-25-15 08:45 AM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 
I've been reading through Illinois' homicide statutes, and they all seem fairly limited. There's not a charge for the "voluntary manslaughter" of an adult, so you go from 1st or 2nd degree murder directly down to Involuntary Manslaughter/Reckless homicide (which don't seem to apply). I think I can now see why they charged him with 1st degree... the defendant has to prove the mitigating factors that drop it to 2nd degree murder by a preponderance of the evidence.

For anybody interested, these are the statutes (in relevant part, with the... IMO... pertinent language underlined):


Sec. 9-1. First degree Murder - Death penalties - Exceptions - Separate Hearings - Proof - Findings - Appellate procedures - Reversals.

(a) A person who kills an individual without lawful justification commits first degree murder if, in performing the acts which cause the death:

(1) he either intends to kill or do great bodily harm to that individual or another, or knows that such acts will cause death to that individual or another; or

(2) he knows that such acts create a strong probability of death or great bodily harm to that individual or another; or

(3) he is attempting or committing a forcible felony other than second degree murder.


Sec. 9-2. Second degree murder.

(a) A person commits the offense of second degree murder when he or she commits the offense of first degree murder as defined in paragraph (1) or (2) of subsection (a) of Section 9-1 of this Code and either of the following mitigating factors are present:

(1) at the time of the killing he or she is acting under a sudden and intense passion resulting from serious provocation by the individual killed or another whom the offender endeavors to kill, but he or she negligently or accidentally causes the death of the individual killed; or

(2) at the time of the killing he or she believes the circumstances to be such that, if they existed, would justify or exonerate the killing under the principles stated in Article 7 of this Code, but his or her belief is unreasonable.
Here's the relevant statutes regarding the officer's use of force:


Sec. 7-1. Use of force in defense of person.

(a) A person is justified in the use of force against another when and to the extent that he reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or another against such other's imminent use of unlawful force. However, he is justified in the use of force which is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm only if he reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or another, or the commission of a forcible felony.
(b) In no case shall any act involving the use of force justified under this Section give rise to any claim or liability brought by or on behalf of any person acting within the definition of "aggressor" set forth in Section 7-4 of this Article, or the estate, spouse, or other family member of such a person, against the person or estate of the person using such justified force, unless the use of force involves willful or wanton misconduct.
This is basically the normal self defense standard (reasonably believes that the force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm).


Sec. 7-5. Peace officer's use of force in making arrest.

(a) A peace officer, or any person whom he has summoned or directed to assist him, need not retreat or desist from efforts to make a lawful arrest because of resistance or threatened resistance to the arrest. He is justified in the use of any force which he reasonably believes to be necessary to effect the arrest and of any force which he reasonably believes to be necessary to defend himself or another from bodily harm while making the arrest. However, he is justified in using force likely to cause death or great bodily harm only when he reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or such other person, or when he reasonably believes both that:

(1) Such force is necessary to prevent the arrest from being defeated by resistance or escape; and

(2) The person to be arrested has committed or attempted a forcible felony which involves the infliction or threatened infliction of great bodily harm or is attempting to escape by use of a deadly weapon, or otherwise indicates that he will endanger human life or inflict great bodily harm unless arrested without delay.
This is basically the post-Garner language... deadly force can be used to prevent escape under certain circumstances. The "death or great bodily harm" does not have to be "imminent" for this one.

So if either of these two statutes are satisfied, the officer is not guilty. They each have "reasonableness" components, which is where I suspect this officer is likely to be screwed. Especially for the shots while the subject was on the ground.

But even if he unreasonably believes his life was in danger, that would drop the charge down to 2nd degree murder. Which, by my guess, is the best the prosecution can hope for.

Dave99 11-25-15 10:29 AM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 

Originally Posted by CaptainMarvel (Post 12653863)
I've been reading through Illinois' homicide statutes, and they all seem fairly limited. There's not a charge for the "voluntary manslaughter" of an adult, so you go from 1st or 2nd degree murder directly down to Involuntary Manslaughter/Reckless homicide (which don't seem to apply). I think I can now see why they charged him with 1st degree... the defendant has to prove the mitigating factors that drop it to 2nd degree murder by a preponderance of the evidence.

makes sense, the involuntary manslaughter I can't see applying at all, given what happened in the Servin case. Of course a lot of people think that judge completely screwed up his logic too.
From that judge

In fact, he said in his ruling, Illinois courts have long held that when a defendant “intends to fire a gun, points it in the general direction of his or her intended victim, and shoots, such conduct is not merely reckless,” but “intentional” and “the crime, if any there be, is first degree murder.”

wearetheborg 11-25-15 12:04 PM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 

Originally Posted by Why So Blu? (Post 12653723)
No. I'm saying that the cop did not empty his clip at once. He shot the guy a bunch of times, paused, and then finished emptying his clip after the fact.

It's overkill. He's toast.

Is he toast *because* it was overkill? If it had just been kill, would he have been justified?

DVD Polizei 11-25-15 12:46 PM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 

Originally Posted by Why So Blu? (Post 12653723)
No. I'm saying that the cop did not empty his clip at once. He shot the guy a bunch of times, paused, and then finished emptying his clip after the fact.

It's overkill. He's toast.

Ummm, he may actually be buttering his toast when it's all over.

Releasing a video BEFORE a person is tried...is a great reason for a trial in another city.

If this guy has even a half-wit attorney, he's going to butter that toast because of the prejudice of the city in wanting to contaminate the potential jury pool before they are even in a court room.

I'm surprised a person like you who believes in justice, is so automatically advocating a trial by social media process.

I hope you never get accused of a crime and a mayor and prosecutor decides to use social media to get a verdict for you, when you hadn't even had a trial.

You talk about justice, but it's clear, you want justice according to YOUR STANDARD.

You're a hypocrite.

Bandoman 11-25-15 02:04 PM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 
The city resisted releasing the video. A reporter sued and the city was ordered to release it. I doubt the trial will moved out of Cook County.

MrX 11-25-15 08:14 PM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 

Originally Posted by Ranger (Post 12653572)
Why are they still protesting the Chicago shooting? They already charged him.

As one person called them, it's the "professional protesters" who are out there that will yell and scream about anything. That's why they're protesting downtown and not on the west or south side where all the violence is occurring.

It was business as usual on the south side last night with 3 shootings where multiple people were wounded.

DaveyJoe 11-26-15 12:56 AM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 

Originally Posted by Ranger (Post 12653572)
Why are they still protesting the Chicago shooting? They already charged him.

Being charged with murder does not mean justice has been served.


Why So Blu? 11-26-15 01:57 AM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 

Originally Posted by DVD Polizei (Post 12654079)
Ummm, he may actually be buttering his toast when it's all over.

Releasing a video BEFORE a person is tried...is a great reason for a trial in another city.

If this guy has even a half-wit attorney, he's going to butter that toast because of the prejudice of the city in wanting to contaminate the potential jury pool before they are even in a court room.

I'm surprised a person like you who believes in justice, is so automatically advocating a trial by social media process.

I hope you never get accused of a crime and a mayor and prosecutor decides to use social media to get a verdict for you, when you hadn't even had a trial.

You talk about justice, but it's clear, you want justice according to YOUR STANDARD.

You're a hypocrite.



Huh?

I'm saying he's toast, because the video. The cop said he emptied his clip, because felt his life was in danger. The video clearly shows that he was not in danger and that he actually paused BEFORE he emptied out his clip - as the video clearly shows.

Dude, you're such an armchair warrior parody it's not even funny.

Why So Blu? 11-26-15 02:02 AM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 

Originally Posted by wearetheborg (Post 12654048)
Is he toast *because* it was overkill? If it had just been kill, would he have been justified?

I'm saying he's toast, because he was not in danger and emptied out his clip after the fact.

He lied and said that he emptied out his clip, because he was afraid for his life. He shot the guy 16 times. An overreaction perhaps? :sarcasm:


EDIT - are you and polizei the same person? Jesusfuckingchrist.

Giantrobo 11-26-15 10:03 AM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 

Originally Posted by MrX (Post 12654390)
As one person called them, it's the "professional protesters" who are out there that will yell and scream about anything. That's why they're protesting downtown and not on the west or south side where all the violence is occurring.

It was business as usual on the south side last night with 3 shootings where multiple people were wounded.

But see, again...the ones on the "west or south side" will most likely caught and go to prison unless they end up dead before capture.

Also, the Media is always going to put cameras on the the Marches against Police and practically ignore marches by Blacks that deal with the Chicago violence.



<b>Whenever protests against police brutality occur in the United States, critics of the Black Lives Matter movement and other race-related protests are quick to criticize marchers for ignoring so-called black-on-black crime and for only speaking out when a white police officer is involved in a black person's death.

But last weekend, the men of Alpha Phi Alpha, a historically black intercollegiate fraternity, proved this is not the case.

Nearly 300 men marched in the freezing rain and snow in Chicago's Chatham neighborhood on Saturday to demand an end to violence in their community.</b> Joined by Alderman Michelle Harris and Illinois state Reps. Marcus Evans and Elgie Sims, all Democrats, the fraternity marched down 79th Street, where community members say a gang war is raging.


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:47 PM.


Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.