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The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread

Old 08-18-15, 07:52 PM
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Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread

You sure are one to talk. You ever been a slave? Hmmm? Didn't think so.
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Old 08-18-15, 08:12 PM
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Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread

2 more cops (former cops now) indicted for murder. Used their tasers as cattle prods on a handcuffed suspect who didn't want to walk back to the cruiser. Man collapsed and died.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/...0QN2CE20150818
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Old 08-18-15, 09:03 PM
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Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread

Originally Posted by EddieMoney View Post
You sure are one to talk. You ever been a slave? Hmmm? Didn't think so.
Were you talking to Giantrobo or somebody else.
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Old 08-18-15, 09:34 PM
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Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread

Originally Posted by DVD Polizei View Post
Were you talking to Giantrobo or somebody else.
Captain M.
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Old 08-18-15, 11:18 PM
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Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread

So a cop compares a black man's communication to an animal (i.e., parrot), and then tries to complain others cannot have serious or sincere dialogue....
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Old 08-19-15, 02:09 AM
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Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread

Originally Posted by CaptainMarvel View Post
I personally believe those with so little respect for the rule of law are responsible for much of the downfall of our society,
Great, you're a neo-Spenglerian. It explains so much about you.
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Old 08-19-15, 04:43 AM
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Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread

Originally Posted by Sean O'Hara View Post
Great, you're a neo-Spenglerian. It explains so much about you.
Egon always was my favorite Ghostbuster.
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Old 08-19-15, 06:40 AM
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Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread

CaptainMarvel, would you agree that you can be perfectly within your legal rights and still make the wrong decision? Like some of the no knock raids that end with unnecessary fatalities? Or even the Zimmerman case.
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Old 08-19-15, 08:19 AM
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Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread

Originally Posted by stp115 View Post
CaptainMarvel, would you agree that you can be perfectly within your legal rights and still make the wrong decision? Like some of the no knock raids that end with unnecessary fatalities? Or even the Zimmerman case.
I don't really want to re-hash Zimmerman at length here as it has nothing to do with police, because I believe even if Zimmerman made a wrong (but legal) decision in following Martin, the real issue was Martin attacking him (which was both a wrong AND illegal action). Even assuming Zimmerman's following of Martin had not abated by the time of the attack (which I'm convinced the record showed), Zimmerman is open to criticism for making a poor decision, but a poor but legal decision doesn't mean it's fair game for you to be violently attacked (which would be called "unacceptable victim blaming" in most contexts like rape, but that phrase's definition apparently tacitly excludes Zimmerman).

But sure... I do agree with your statement in general. That's why in the Bland case I said the officer was in the wrong (for violating policy and professionalism standards) even though he was legally in the right to have her step out of her vehicle. My favorite description of that event was "a roadside domestic" between Bland and the officer, and it's very accurate. The officer should have done better.

I'm all about officers doing things "by the book", which is just another way saying "in accordance with pre-defined standards". And I'm not just talking about legal standards, but departmental and professional (here comes the mocking). But I do expect there to be a standard in place that's violated before an individual officer is judged a "bad cop." If an officer performs how he's been trained and according to the standards (legal and extra-legal) that are imposed on him, and something bad still happens that the public finds unacceptable, then reviewing standards on a broad level are fair game, but throwing that particular officer to the wolves based on some post hoc rationale is bullshit, IMO.

Regarding no-knock warrants: I'll exclude scenarios where the officers lied or misled in the affidavits for probable cause or in their explanation of the exigency requiring a no-knock (bad cops, violating law). I'll exclude scenarios where the officers acted in good faith, but a judge should have denied a warrant for legal deficiency (bad judge, not the cops). I'll exclude scenarios where during execution, a violation of law (e.g. a legally unjustified shooting... bad cop) or policy or professional standards occurred... those are all situations that I'm willing to call the cops involved "bad cops," because there were breaches of some standard by the actual officers involved. But a situation where the warrant was lawfully obtained, and executed, and a legal but tragic death still occurs (e.g. a homeowner mistakenly believing the police are unlawful intruders, and the police returning fire)? That's a terrific reason to change the law regarding no-knocks as a matter of public policy (and one which I might be inclined to agree with myself), but I'm not going to call the officers engaged in that activity "bad cops."
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Old 08-19-15, 08:57 AM
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Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread

Originally Posted by EddieMoney View Post
You sure are one to talk. You ever been a slave? Hmmm? Didn't think so.
Has Giantrobo?

Never mind, I forgot he's married now.
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Old 08-19-15, 02:26 PM
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Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread

Originally Posted by printerati View Post
Has Giantrobo?

Never mind, I forgot he's married now.
So true.
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Old 08-19-15, 02:35 PM
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Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread

Originally Posted by CaptainMarvel View Post
Here you go Dave.

Take a look at his post (and others he's made), and try to honestly assess: do you think there's anything that I or any other police officer could do or say that would have any effect or change his disposition for the better? Or anything one of us could do that could actually be viewed objectively by him? He filters everything not just through the lens of race, but through hundreds of years of history that he didn't live through, but feels free to use as an excuse.

He's a lost cause at best, so even for the officers wanting to improve the relationship between cops and critics in the community, any extra efforts spent on him would be utterly futile. Unless you've got unlimited resources, any resources spent trying to please him are wasted. So if you have to deal with somebody with his mindset, I say find an objective standard (like the law, policy, etc.) and work within that framework.

You could teach a parrot a few words (race, slave, black, white) and end up having the same conversation with it, but a better chance of meaningful two-way communication.
Noooo, don't give up on me kvrdave. I promise I'll do better and see everything from a Cop's point of view.
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Old 08-19-15, 02:37 PM
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Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread

Originally Posted by DVD Polizei View Post
So you're saying give a cop attitude and experience it?

I'll leave that up to you and your like-minded people.
Typical Fanboy. Attitude = Justifiable Death and beatings by Cops.
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Old 08-19-15, 02:43 PM
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Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread

Originally Posted by Giantrobo View Post
Noooo, don't give up on me kvrdave. I promise I'll do better and see everything from a Cop's point of view.
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Old 08-19-15, 02:58 PM
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Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread

At least I'm a pretty Parrot.
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Old 08-19-15, 04:19 PM
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Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread

Originally Posted by CaptainMarvel View Post
But a situation where the warrant was lawfully obtained, and executed, and a legal but tragic death still occurs (e.g. a homeowner mistakenly believing the police are unlawful intruders, and the police returning fire)? That's a terrific reason to change the law regarding no-knocks as a matter of public policy (and one which I might be inclined to agree with myself), but I'm not going to call the officers engaged in that activity "bad cops."
If, the homeowner were to kill an officer and somehow survive, should he also be let go, not charged, because it was all a mistake by both sides? What's the law on this?
If the officers were to realize the mistake during the confrontation, while taking fire, what is official procedure? Somehow try to de-escalate? Or, too late now, we're taking fire, take him out?
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Old 08-19-15, 04:21 PM
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Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread

That is one good looking bird.
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Old 08-19-15, 04:28 PM
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Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread

Originally Posted by rw2516 View Post
If, the homeowner were to kill an officer and somehow survive, should he also be let go, not charged, because it was all a mistake by both sides? What's the law on this?
If the officers were to realize the mistake during the confrontation, while taking fire, what is official procedure? Somehow try to de-escalate? Or, too late now, we're taking fire, take him out?
I don't know the official policy, but if a group of officers are taking fire for whatever reason, even if they realize the guy is mistaken about their identity, I'd think they take him out first, if nothing else claiming self-defense.
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Old 08-19-15, 05:42 PM
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Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread

Originally Posted by van der graaf View Post
So a cop compares a black man's communication to an animal (i.e., parrot), and then tries to complain others cannot have serious or sincere dialogue....
Grammatically speaking, you're putting the cart before the horse.
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Old 08-19-15, 06:43 PM
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Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread

rw2516, I'm answering your questions in reverse order, but first I want to make sure we're all on the same page with terminology. If you know this, please excuse me.

Regular warrants are typically called "knock and announce." They require officers to knock on the door and afford the homeowner time to peacefully submit to the warrant. That time is usually fairly short (20 seconds, or even less, varying by jurisdiction). After that time is up, they become otherwise indistinguishable from a "no knock," as police can go ahead and force entry. Police are still expected to announce their presence as law enforcement (usually by shouting something like "Police... search warrant"), and it's usually expected that all members of the entry team wear marked clothing identifying themselves as law enforcement.

"No knock" warrants have to be specifically authorized by a court, and there has to be some sort of articulable exigency (e.g. fear of destruction of evidence; e.g. fear of violence) that justifies the officers waiving the "knock" and waiting period. Officers still have to announce their presence as they execute the warrant, and they're still expected to be plainly marked as police.

Originally Posted by rw2516 View Post
If the officers were to realize the mistake during the confrontation, while taking fire, what is official procedure? Somehow try to de-escalate? Or, too late now, we're taking fire, take him out?
Officers are only legally allowed to shoot if they're facing imminent threat of death or serious physical injury, so that doesn't leave much room at that point for deliberations, nor for retiring to a safe place. If multiple police find themselves taking fire in close quarters, it will generally end badly for the person shooting at police very quickly. I'm not sure in most cases how officers taking fire are going to be able... in the face of that imminent threat... to rapidly distinguish between "homeowner who thinks we're intruders" and "criminal trying to kill us." And even if they do decide they're facing "homeowner who thinks we're intruders," they're still justified in defending themselves... it's entirely possible to have two competing, valid self-defense claims, in the police context or otherwise.

Originally Posted by rw2516 View Post
If, the homeowner were to kill an officer and somehow survive, should he also be let go, not charged, because it was all a mistake by both sides? What's the law on this?
The scenario I posted that you quoted was "a homeowner mistakenly believing the police are unlawful intruders, and the police returning fire"... I'm not sure I'm understanding how it would be a mistake on the police's side in that case.

Ignoring that part and reading the question as "If, the homeowner were to kill an officer and somehow survive, should he also be let go, not charged", the answer is, "it depends on the circumstances." Each state has its own laws regarding self defense. In most places, it will generally be treated as a "mistaken self defense" scenario, as the Castle Doctrine doesn't typically apply against police who are in fact lawfully there.

(In Indiana (as I recall... I am no expert on their law), the Castle Doctrine itself has been changed to include such a scenario if the homeowner reasonably believed police were unlawfully entering their home. That's kind of an oddity, because it would allow a homeowner to shoot 1) police that were lawfully there, 2) that he knows are in fact police, 3) even if he incorrectly believes them to be there illegally, as long as that incorrect belief is reasonable.)

Like I said, "Mistaken Self Defense" is usually going to be the theory used in most states. That defense typically requires an mistake to be objectively reasonable: you can't just claim you didn't know they were police, but you have to show that mistake was a reasonable one. That's going to generally be tough to convince prosecutors, judges, and jury, because as I noted above, most warrants are served by teams of multiple individuals, all dressed as law enforcement, and all repeatedly shouting that they're law enforcement. Does such a claim fail? More often than not. Does it ever work? Sure.
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Old 08-19-15, 07:18 PM
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Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread

Originally Posted by rw2516 View Post
If, the homeowner were to kill an officer and somehow survive, should he also be let go, not charged, because it was all a mistake by both sides? What's the law on this?
If the officers were to realize the mistake during the confrontation, while taking fire, what is official procedure? Somehow try to de-escalate? Or, too late now, we're taking fire, take him out?
Here are the laws pertaining to that, but as with everything there are a whole variety of factors at play :

Your Right of Defense Against Unlawful Arrest

http://www.constitution.org/uslaw/defunlaw.htm
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Old 08-19-15, 07:39 PM
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Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread

Originally Posted by inri222 View Post
Here are the laws pertaining to that, but as with everything there are a whole variety of factors at play :

Your Right of Defense Against Unlawful Arrest

http://www.constitution.org/uslaw/defunlaw.htm
Be very leery of that site's explanation (and pretty much any place citing John Bad Elk as good law), as that article uses both fabrications and outdated law. See e.g. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bad_..._United_States

This case has been widely cited on the internet, but is no longer considered good law in a growing number of jurisdictions.[1] Most states have, either by statute or by case law, removed the unlawful arrest defense for resisting arrest.

...

The case has also been cited on various internet sites as giving citizens the authority to resist unlawful arrest. This claim is normally put forth in connection with a misquoted version of Plummer v. State.[42] The most commonly quoted version is:

"Citizens may resist unlawful arrest to the point of taking an arresting officer's life if necessary.” Plummer v. State, 136 Ind. 306 [sic]. This premise was upheld by the Supreme Court of the United States in the case: John Bad Elk v. U.S., 177 U.S. 529. The Court stated: “Where the officer is killed in the course of the disorder which naturally accompanies an attempted arrest that is resisted, the law looks with very different eyes upon the transaction, when the officer had the right to make the arrest, from what it does if the officer had no right. What may be murder in the first case might be nothing more than manslaughter in the other, or the facts might show that no offense had been committed."[43]
Modern sources citing Plummer and Bad Elk have tended to discuss the issue as defense against unlawful force; under contemporary law in most jurisdictions, a person may not use force to resist an unlawful arrest.[44] The Plummer quote has been noted to be a fabrication, not appearing in the text of the opinion.[45]
The CopBlock crowd in particular loves to cite that.
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Old 08-19-15, 08:31 PM
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Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread

Originally Posted by CaptainMarvel View Post
Officers are only legally allowed to shoot if they're facing imminent threat of death or serious physical injury,
perceived imminent threat would be more correct, no?
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Old 08-19-15, 08:55 PM
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Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread

Originally Posted by Dave99 View Post
perceived imminent threat would be more correct, no?
Yes, that is correct. Objectively reasonable perceived at that.
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Old 08-20-15, 09:31 AM
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Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread

Okay, we don't have the very beginning of what happened, and it is entirely possible that the dog was attacking in some way. The video starts with the dog already shot, so we don't know. But the dog was still alive....that is until they took the time to go back for a shotgun and fucking executed it in front of the owner. Likely what the officer did was a mercy killing because no one takes their injured pets to vets anymore, they just wait for the police to show up and kill your fucking dog in front of you. To be fair, it was a black dog, so I'm sure we'll find a reason to justify this.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/g8H67mOX6GU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
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