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The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread

Old 07-30-15, 01:24 PM
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Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread

Originally Posted by printerati View Post
"Most" cops?
.
Yes. Most Cops. Based on what i saw, he seems to have felt there was some sort of danger
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Old 07-30-15, 01:42 PM
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Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread

Originally Posted by Giantrobo View Post
Yes. Most Cops. Based on what i saw, he seems to have felt there was some sort of danger
Sir, please step away from the Atlanta Black Star. "He" is not indicative of "most".
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Old 07-30-15, 01:48 PM
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Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread

Originally Posted by printerati View Post
Sir, please step away from the Atlanta Black Star. "He" is not indicative of "most".
Sure he is. He felt his life was in danger....so he reacted. What cop doesnt do this?

Im actually kinda defending him based on what i saw in that video.
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Old 07-30-15, 02:20 PM
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Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread

Originally Posted by BambooLounge View Post
OR...if the law enforcement officer behaved like a normal fucking cop and not an ego bruised bitch..
And every single time...who ends up being a dead bitch.

If a cop has an issue with me...I sure as hell won't give that officer a reason to kill me.

Keep on resisting, people. You CLEARLY have the answer.
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Old 07-30-15, 02:47 PM
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Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread

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Old 07-30-15, 02:51 PM
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Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread

Originally Posted by BambooLounge View Post
Brown, absolutely. Dubose, maybe just a bitch. This entire "respect my authori-tie!" (Cartman voice) response to "noncompliance" from officers is not the norm. It's just not. But, that is generally what these unjustified shootings have in common. Inexperienced and/or insecure men with guns not knowing how to handle not getting their way and reacting as offended people rather than well-trained officers.

The officer who shot Dubose was NOT trained to shoot a perp in the head if he tried to drive away during a traffic stop. He simply wasn't. He got scared and grossly overreacted. But, we all need to pretend like he is a hero doing hero's work, so how dare us, lowly civilians try to criticize his in the moment reaction.

The cop in Ferguson grossly overreacted because he wanted to play Starsky and Hutch when he approached the perps. Well-trained officers do not react like it's the movies. They go about their business, even the difficult business of having their feeling hurt and authority disrespected like professionals. But, then their unions and the conservative public defend the idiots as if they were the same type of officers.
For somebody who has made a few decent points, this "bitch" nonsense you're peddling is just utterly ridiculous twaddle. There's a massive difference between an officer feeling disrespected and having lawful authority disobeyed, and you're conflating the two. When people are given lawful orders (like "you're under arrest... turn around and put your hands behind your back" or "give me your driver's license") and refuse, it's not being "butthurt" or "a bitch" to then force compliance. That's the job. I have no clue what you even mean by the "Starsky and Hutch" comment.
1) For Brown, Brown and his buddy were walking down the middle of the road. The officer (who was on his way to lunch with his wife, not trying to stir up a call) simply told them to move off the street. Had they complied (and had Brown not robbed a store a few minutes before, which prompted the larger altercation once Wilson realized who it was and backed up), they would have been walking on their merry way down the sidewalk and Wilson would have met with his wife. Had Brown not assaulted the officer, Brown would have been alive. Robbers, including robbers who happen to be "unarmed black males" get taken into custody safely every day. Had Brown complied after getting shot once (in the car), Brown would be alive.

2) For Dubose, there was nothing improper about the stop at all up until the point he tried to go into the car (which is bad tactically, not legally)... and even that was precipitated by the subject trying to leave the scene. You may not thing it's "not the norm", but police trying to stop somebody who is detained or in custody from leaving most certainly is. That's one of the hallmark traits of detention and custody: the person isn't free to go.
And for fuck sakes, please stop blathering about unions. Most police aren't unionized (the last number I saw showed less than 40% of departments had collective bargaining). In some major cities its common, and maybe unions are a problem there, but that's not a nationwide problem. In places like the southeast, it's extremely rare. Police union blaming is just a talking point.


Originally Posted by DirkUSA
Mmmmmmhhh, ok.

You can say whatever you want and try to justify these shootings. It doesn't change my opinion that police officers are using deadly force too often when it's not justified.
Mmmmmmmhhh, okay back then.

If you're going to hold to your preconceived notions regardless of what anybody says, then good for you. You can build up DVD Polizei's post to say something it doesn't say, then knock down that strawman if you like, I suppose. If you're going to stubbornly stick with an ill-informed opinion "just because" regardless of what anybody says, then "police officers are using deadly force too often when it's not justified" is as good of an opinion as any, since it's nebulous, non-falsifiable, and thus utterly devoid of actual meaning. How often is too often? In one sense, "one time" is too often, but "one time" does not an epidemic make.

Washington Post has been tracking police shootings this year because of the horrible record keeping in the past, and you can go look at their database ( http://www.washingtonpost.com/graphi...ice-shootings/ ). The people shot tend to be overwhelmingly white, male, and armed. The overwhelming majority have involved subjects with deadly weapons, and of the percentage of unarmed most of those involved people physically fighting with officers. (Strangely, a few of those "unarmed" people had things like sticks, and at least one of those "unarmed" people - Roberto Leon - somehow exchanged gunfire with police, which I still haven't figured out). The utterly vast majority of those shoots don't even appear to be questionable.

We were talking about two "shootings" (Brown and DuBose... Brown was justified, and DuBose I've said very well might not be justified), so please don't make claims about me trying to "justify these shootings." You have a bad problem with planting words in peoples' mouths, apparently.
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Old 07-30-15, 03:43 PM
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Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread

Originally Posted by CaptainMarvel View Post
For somebody who has made a few decent points, this "bitch" nonsense you're peddling is just utterly ridiculous twaddle. There's a massive difference between an officer feeling disrespected and having lawful authority disobeyed, and you're conflating the two. When people are given lawful orders (like "you're under arrest... turn around and put your hands behind your back" or "give me your driver's license") and refuse, it's not being "butthurt" or "a bitch" to then force compliance. That's the job. I have no clue what you even mean by the "Starsky and Hutch" comment.
1) For Brown, Brown and his buddy were walking down the middle of the road. The officer (who was on his way to lunch with his wife, not trying to stir up a call) simply told them to move off the street. Had they complied (and had Brown not robbed a store a few minutes before, which prompted the larger altercation once Wilson realized who it was and backed up), they would have been walking on their merry way down the sidewalk and Wilson would have met with his wife. Had Brown not assaulted the officer, Brown would have been alive. Robbers, including robbers who happen to be "unarmed black males" get taken into custody safely every day. Had Brown complied after getting shot once (in the car), Brown would be alive.

2) For Dubose, there was nothing improper about the stop at all up until the point he tried to go into the car (which is bad tactically, not legally)... and even that was precipitated by the subject trying to leave the scene. You may not thing it's "not the norm", but police trying to stop somebody who is detained or in custody from leaving most certainly is. That's one of the hallmark traits of detention and custody: the person isn't free to go.
And for fuck sakes, please stop blathering about unions. Most police aren't unionized (the last number I saw showed less than 40% of departments had collective bargaining). In some major cities its common, and maybe unions are a problem there, but that's not a nationwide problem. In places like the southeast, it's extremely rare. Police union blaming is just a talking point
Firstly, fair point on unionization. My perspective is admittedly informed by "major cities" as my local law enforcement is the NYPD. So, the politics around their extremely strong union likely is not representative of local law enforcement nationwide. My concerns with the union line are applicable to the NYPD and I would assume other similarly larger law enforcement forces like the LAPD.

Re: "lawful authority" - noncompliance with lawful authority exists on a spectrum and any even remotely battle worn law enforcement officer will acknowledge that not ever instance of noncompliance is the same. Noncompliance by an armed or agitated individual is different than noncompliance from a stupid individual which is different from noncompliance by a drunk individual, etc.

A man walking toward a cop with a gun and not obeying commands is vastly different than a man or two men not moving onto the sidewalk. Both are different than a man mumbling replies as to why he does not have his license on him and not being responsive to a request to remove his seat belt during a traffic stop.

The issue is when an officer reacts disproportionately to the dangers posed by the noncompliance. The "ego bruised bitch" categorization was a less than artful shorthand for when an officer seemingly takes the noncompliance as more of a personal affront to his authority and subsequently overreacts either by operating outside the law, failing to put his training into practice, or needlessly escalating a situation by employing a tactic a seasoned or better trained officer would not have done.

I think it is hard to find veteran law enforcement officers who will say, "I would've done the same thing" in many, if not most, of these situations off the record (and some certainly will not say as much on the record). But, they also understand how failures in training and a bad culture can create these incidents.

Ultimately, law enforcement officers are given too much power for the response to them killing unarmed civilians to be, "Well, he should have just done what he was told and none of this would have happened." That's simply not good enough. But, that argument is pushed by the narrative that police officers are "heroes" battling evil whose lives are at risk every single second of every single day as if law enforcement are the fucking X-Men constantly under attack by nefarious forces. When in actuality, they're just people whose job it is to maintain a sense of order for society. A society that could descend into chaos on its own and is not actively hunting law enforcement officers. In reality, most arrests are for activities that pose no direct risk to the arresting officer. It is exceptionally rare for a law enforcement officer to find him or herself in a cinematic shoot out or life or death scenario. And we would all be a lot better off accepting that and figuring out how to keep everyone as safe as possible. The answer though cannot be for the people with the least amount of power during every interaction to simply stop acting like people and for the person with the most power to exert his/her will as they please without consequence.

Also, the lawful order of "you're under arrest" may be lawful, but in many circumstances those orders are being given inconsistently and disproportionally in a manner that makes it extremely hard for everyone to simply just do what they're told and not feel victimized (re: DVDPol's idea). That is an issue. And that is also where law enforcement training needs to get a lot better on things as simple as how to talk to civilians.
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Old 07-30-15, 03:56 PM
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Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread

Originally Posted by DVD Polizei View Post
If a cop has an issue with me...I sure as hell won't give that officer a reason to kill me.
You assume you will know what sets him off. Hopefully you don't knock on the wrong door some night.
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Old 07-30-15, 04:23 PM
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Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread

Don't these cars have dash cams as well? Where are those videos?

Some of the prosecutor's comments piss me off:
"He wasn't dealing with someone wanted for murder. He was dealing with someone without a front license plate," Deters said, describing that offense as "chicken crap stuff."
How in the hell is the cop supposed to know what the person in the car is capable of? If that offense is chicken crap stuff, then why the hell is it the law in that fucking state? You're going to blame the officer for enforcing the law?

"Some people want to believe Mr. DuBose did something violent toward the officer," Deters said. "He did not. He did not at all."

He said DuBose had marijuana in the car and about $2,600 cash. "He might have had marijuana, but you don't deserve to be executed for something like that," Deters said."
Did the cop overreact, sure, but Dubose didn't really help matters either. So he had no front plate, driving on a suspended license , probably a drug dealer, and was trying to get away from a cop, yeah he's an angel.
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Old 07-30-15, 05:21 PM
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Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread

Originally Posted by BambooLounge View Post
A man walking toward a cop with a gun and not obeying commands is vastly different than a man or two men not moving onto the sidewalk. Both are different than a man mumbling replies as to why he does not have his license on him and not being responsive to a request to remove his seat belt during a traffic stop.
And "a man or two men not moving onto the sidewalk" is different from "a man matching the description of a robber, assaulting an officer, and grabbing his gun," just as a "man mumbling replies as to why he does not have his license on him and not being responsive to a request to remove his seat belt during a traffic stop" is different from "a man refusing to exit his vehicle then trying to flee." We can minimize behavior all we want I guess, but the latter two scenarios are the ones that directly preceded the uses of force in Brown and DuBose (and again, in DuBose I'm talking about the attempt to remove him from the vehicle, not the gunshot that followed).

The issue is when an officer reacts disproportionately to the dangers posed by the noncompliance. The "ego bruised bitch" categorization was a less than artful shorthand for when an officer seemingly takes the noncompliance as more of a personal affront to his authority and subsequently overreacts either by operating outside the law, failing to put his training into practice, or needlessly escalating a situation by employing a tactic a seasoned or better trained officer would not have done.
Failing to comply IS an affront to an officer's authority, and allowing somebody to repeatedly fail to comply without addressing it destroys that authority. I'm sorry... "de-escalation" is the buzzword du jour right now, and there's certainly a time and place for it, but at some point you simply have to escalate things to get control of somebody who is not complying. The standard police mantra we get told time and time again is, "Ask. Tell. Make." It's a progression from polite to command to enforce. If you sit there asking somebody to do something, and they refuse, you're only making things worse when you sit there and repeatedly ask them over and over again, pretty please with a cherry on top, while any command presence you had slowly circles the toilet. You will rapidly lose control of a situation that way, and you can very easily end up making things far worse when you actually do have to go hands on.

I think it is hard to find veteran law enforcement officers who will say, "I would've done the same thing" in many, if not most, of these situations off the record (and some certainly will not say as much on the record). But, they also understand how failures in training and a bad culture can create these incidents.


I am just not sure where you get that from. I associate often with other law enforcement in real life, and I frequently visit police message boards/reddit groups/etc. It depends on the facts of any given "scandal." There was unanimous outcry against the Walter Scott shooting, which was patently unjustified and unlawful. In contrast, the McKinney "pool party" officer got a lot of guff from the media for 1) putting the girl on the ground to restrain her and 2) drawing his weapon on the guy that jumped at him, but very few police I've talked with had issues with him for that... regardless of optics from the lay public, those were consistent with practices. Ironically, most police I've spoken with did have issues, on the other hand with how utterly manic and ineffectual he was during the rest of that encounter, running around like a chicken with his head off. And virtually no officers I've spoken with see the prosecution of the officers who arrested Freddie Gray (not the van driver) as anything more than a politically motivated sacrifice. It's scenario dependent.

I think most officers understand that there can be multiple, lawful resolutions to any given scenario, and often the choices are between a turd soup or a turd sandwich. It's easy to armchair quarterback after the fact, and god knows I've done it too, but I've always kept in mind, "there but for the grace of god go I."

Training is also great, but training only goes so far. The dynamics of human interaction are limitless, and there's simply no way to prepare for everything. There's also no winning sometimes, as there are conflicting, competing concerns. Virtually every officer has seen the video of the murder of Kyle Dinkheller... the takeaways from that video were 1) don't let the subject get control during a traffic stop and 2) don't wait too long to use deadly force. Which is great, but part of the reason the officer there waited so long is that he'd been reprimanded by his superior shortly beforehand for being too quick to draw his weapon. He took that training to heart, and the hesitation ended up making his death training for other law enforcement for the opposite reasons.

Ultimately, law enforcement officers are given too much power for the response to them killing unarmed civilians to be, "Well, he should have just done what he was told and none of this would have happened." That's simply not good enough. But, that argument is pushed by the narrative that police officers are "heroes" battling evil whose lives are at risk every single second of every single day as if law enforcement are the fucking X-Men constantly under attack by nefarious forces. When in actuality, they're just people whose job it is to maintain a sense of order for society. A society that could descend into chaos on its own and is not actively hunting law enforcement officers. In reality, most arrests are for activities that pose no direct risk to the arresting officer. It is exceptionally rare for a law enforcement officer to find him or herself in a cinematic shoot out or life or death scenario. And we would all be a lot better off accepting that and figuring out how to keep everyone as safe as possible. The answer though cannot be for the people with the least amount of power during every interaction to simply stop acting like people and for the person with the most power to exert his/her will as they please without consequence.
I literally have no idea who you're responding to with this "hero" stuff. You keep bringing it up. Has somebody in this thread asserted that notion?

Police shootings are relatively rare, and policing flits in and out of the top 10 most dangerous occupations, so while it's certainly not safe (and while it's the only occupation in or around the top 10 where a substantial number of deaths and injuries stem from human beings actively trying to kill you) it's certainly not like being in the infantry. But part of the reason policing is as "safe" as it is is precisely because of the focus on officer safety we've seen. The proliferation of vests and training (dashcams have been a godsend, and body cams will be even better) haven't eliminated the risks.

Also, the lawful order of "you're under arrest" may be lawful, but in many circumstances those orders are being given inconsistently and disproportionally in a manner that makes it extremely hard for everyone to simply just do what they're told and not feel victimized (re: DVDPol's idea). That is an issue.
I have no idea what you mean that the orders are given "disproportionately." Orders during an incident are given to an individual, based on the specific facts of that incident, not a demographic or generalization. The onus is on the individual to comply.

And that is also where law enforcement training needs to get a lot better on things as simple as how to talk to civilians.
And I think that's a load of horsecrap. Sorry. I'm not sure where you're getting your knowledge of "law enforcement training," but the average officer probably talks to hundreds of "civilians" without any incident whatsoever. Between non-enforcement actions like taking reports and working motor vehicle accidents, to enforcement actions like tickets and arrests, to investigative actions, police probably talk to a broader cross section of American life than most people, and most of the incidents are utterly uneventful. No amount of training will change the fact that some people are just going to be shitheels.
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Old 07-30-15, 05:24 PM
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Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread

Originally Posted by bigsoos View Post
Don't these cars have dash cams as well? Where are those videos?
I know that a lot of offices that have switched to body cameras have done away with dash cams, unfortunately, for expense reasons. That's a whole separate set of camera equipment to maintain, and double the data to store. And frankly a lot of dashcam video is utterly worthless, as it only captures what's in a fixed field of view..

It would have been nice here.
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Old 07-30-15, 06:54 PM
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Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread

Originally Posted by CaptainMarvel View Post
I think most officers understand that there can be multiple, lawful resolutions to any given scenario, and often the choices are between a turd soup or a turd sandwich. It's easy to armchair quarterback after the fact, and god knows I've done it too, but I've always kept in mind, "there but for the grace of god go I."
As you said, there is a range of actions that are legal, but is it common for police to re-look at things to see what was the best thing within that range that could or should have been done, and what are the standards for deciding that?

I don't mean it to be a 20/20 after-the-fact blaming exercise, but it's often done in my work. Yeah it can get numbingly boring, but sometimes you learn to adjust or "re-calibrate" how you do things for the next time.

Or, do police usually take the approach that, as long as it's legal, it's alright. Please don't take this the wrong way.
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Old 07-30-15, 07:31 PM
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Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread

Originally Posted by Psi View Post
As you said, there is a range of actions that are legal, but is it common for police to re-look at things to see what was the best thing within that range that could or should have been done, and what are the standards for deciding that?

I don't mean it to be a 20/20 after-the-fact blaming exercise, but it's often done in my work. Yeah it can get numbingly boring, but sometimes you learn to adjust or "re-calibrate" how you do things for the next time.

Or, do police usually take the approach that, as long as it's legal, it's alright. Please don't take this the wrong way.
Well, police have to deal with not just the "legal", but also the "policy" range... that's what will probably get the officer in the Garner case and the Bland case.

But if you're asking if any "re-calibration" happens beyond that, sure. It happens all the time. There are after-actions, hotwashes, etc to go over incidents people have been involved in short term, and there are case studies long term. And as I said: dashcams and body cams provide fertile ground for review of incidents that others have been in.

Most of the practical training (eg, scenarios) also has a similar review component. And you can't throw a stick without hitting organizations wanting to promulgate their own training ideas or best practices.

The difference is, these are all done for constructive purposes, not for the sort of "gotcha" behavior we see with critics trying to condemn the officer involved for making a rational, legal decision, but not the one the people with hindsight would have made.

I will say again though that "police" is not monolithic. More progressive agencies will have more professional officers and excellent training. I happen to work for a very good department, and as a result we have 100's of applicants for each position. The 4 person department 40 miles down the road from me pays not much more than minimum wage, and I'm sure they don't send their officers to much more than the cheapest classes required to maintain their POST certification. It should be no surprise that their officers are well below par. You get what you pay for, and some places are basically hiring bodies, unfortunately.
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Old 07-30-15, 07:57 PM
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Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread

^^ Thanks. Some of the posts in this thread also help me re-calibrate my view. I'd say that in general I see things to the "left" of where you see them, but then again I don't have to do your job.
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Old 07-31-15, 10:15 AM
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Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread

I'll just post the link to the youtube video. This is the Dubose incident with the camera stabilized. Watching it this way, you see everything better. Still hard to understand why he went with the gun so incredibly fast with no warning. Maybe they simply don't train their university police well. I have no idea.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKqK...ature=youtu.be
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Old 07-31-15, 10:46 AM
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Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread

Synchronized body cams of all 3 cops at the scene :

<iframe src="https://embed.theguardian.com/embed/video/us-news/video/2015/jul/30/body-cameras-officers-samuel-dubose-shooting-video" width="560" height="315" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
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Old 07-31-15, 12:19 PM
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Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread

Originally Posted by inri222 View Post
Synchronized body cams of all 3 cops at the scene :

<iframe src="https://embed.theguardian.com/embed/video/us-news/video/2015/jul/30/body-cameras-officers-samuel-dubose-shooting-video" width="560" height="315" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
where's the first part of Kidd's video...
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Old 07-31-15, 12:36 PM
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Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread

Originally Posted by kvrdave View Post
I'll just post the link to the youtube video. This is the Dubose incident with the camera stabilized. Watching it this way, you see everything better. Still hard to understand why he went with the gun so incredibly fast with no warning. Maybe they simply don't train their university police well. I have no idea.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKqK...ature=youtu.be
Good find. That helped quite a bit. The defense is going to have a tough row to hoe on this one.

I suspect the other officers are going to be fine, based on the video inri222 posted. They were pretty far away, and the entire incident with the struggle, shooting, and falling away took place within the span of around 5 seconds.

(And on a strictly personal note: those tattoos on the second officer's arms? Ugh. I hate seeing that. If you want to look like a tatted douchebag, do it all you want off duty, but wear long shirts or sleeve covers. I fucking hate when departments let people have things like goatees, tattoos, and nose rings. So unprofessional.)

Last edited by CaptainMarvel; 07-31-15 at 12:58 PM.
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Old 07-31-15, 12:43 PM
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Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread

Originally Posted by DVD Polizei View Post
And every single time...who ends up being a dead bitch.

If a cop has an issue with me...I sure as hell won't give that officer a reason to kill me.

Keep on resisting, people. You CLEARLY have the answer.
Sometimes you don't need to give them a reason. And resisting arrest doesn't automatically mean DEATH SENTENCE. My god, it's like the cops don't have any choice but to kill. They often have lots of choices and still choose to gun someone down, especially if they are black.

A black child is outside with a "gun", and when the cops roll up they immediately shoot him.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/7Z8qNUWekWE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Well, they thought he had a gun you say. Don't walk around with guns and you won't get shot. They had to defend themselves.

Then a white man is on the street with a gun and the cops roll up and talk him down instead.

Link

Even though both people did similar things, one is dead and the other is not. It's not even about who is resisting. It's about what decisions are made by police regardless of the actions a person takes.
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Old 07-31-15, 01:05 PM
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Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread

Originally Posted by CaptainMarvel View Post
I suspect the other officers are going to be fine, based on the video inri222 posted. They were pretty far away, and the entire incident with the struggle, shooting, and falling away took place within the span of around 5 seconds.
Correct.

Originally Posted by Draven View Post
My god, it's like the cops don't have any choice but to kill. They often have lots of choices and still choose to gun someone down, especially if they are black.
Source?
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Old 07-31-15, 01:26 PM
  #2921  
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Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread

Originally Posted by printerati View Post
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Old 07-31-15, 01:28 PM
  #2922  
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Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread

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Old 07-31-15, 02:12 PM
  #2923  
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Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread

Originally Posted by printerati View Post
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did you stop reading his post after the part that you quoted?
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Old 07-31-15, 02:23 PM
  #2924  
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Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread

Originally Posted by Draven
And resisting arrest doesn't automatically mean DEATH SENTENCE. My god, it's like the cops don't have any choice but to kill. They often have lots of choices and still choose to gun someone down, especially if they are black.
Well, you're at least correct, albeit in an unintentional way. The vast, vast majority of the time, resisting arrest doesn't "automatically" result in deadly force (or "gunning someone down", I guess ), regardless of the race of the person. It doesn't even "usually" result in deadly force, and when you look at the total number of emergency calls for service in this country (up in the hundreds of millions) and arrests (in the tens of millions... not counting traffic stops), it doesn't even "frequently" do so. Last I checked, BJS claimed that less than 2% of police interactions involved any level of force whatsoever (and the majority of the time that "force" wasn't even hard contact, but instead "pushing" or "grabbing").

According to WaPo's tracking, we're at ~600 fatal police shootings this year, and the vast majority of those have been against offenders armed with lethal weapons like guns or knives (they consider things like offenders armed with sticks as "unarmed" apparently, which is bullshit). Those deaths are primarily white, by the way.

It is simply a nonsense claim to even imply that "resisting arrest automatically means a death sentence," or anywhere close to it.

I think DVD Polizei's point was this (and he can certainly clarify if I'm wrong):

Resisting arrest will almost always (properly) result in force used against you. Sometimes even non-deadly force like a taser can result in death or serious injury. Sometimes the officer will be justified in deadly force. Sometimes you may not mean to do anything more than act out, but a officer might reasonably mistake your resistance to signify a serious threat. And yes, sometimes officers will fuck up. At a minimum, if you resist you're probably buying a ride to jail, force used against you, and more serious charges than you'd have faced otherwise. Worst case is you end up dead. With all that said, just as a purely practical matter, why the hell would you be non-compliant? What do you hope to gain, and how could that possibly outweigh the risk (whether legitimate or illegitimate)?

And that, frankly, goes even moreso if you have a jaundiced view of the police. We've heard Obama and other notable African-American pundits speak about "the talk" and how they feel they have to give their kids a speech about how dangerous the police are. If the black community at large truly believes police are such wild dogs, why do we keep seeing members of the black community expose themselves to greater risk by transforming what could be a non-force incident into one where some degree of force has to be used to subdue them? In nearly every one of the "unarmed black male" major cases we've seen recently (Brown, Gray, DuBose, Scott, et al), we hear about their race. But the other common factor is they all, by fleeing or fighting, guaranteed that some measure of force would have to be used against them. It's such an illogical reaction.
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Old 07-31-15, 03:47 PM
  #2925  
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Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread

Originally Posted by LurkerDan View Post
did you stop reading his post after the part that you quoted?
My mistake. Clearly, those two incidents should be enough to draw the "They often have lots of choices and still choose to gun someone down, especially if they are black." conclusion.
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