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-   -   The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread (https://forum.dvdtalk.com/religion-politics-world-events/597561-cops-behaving-badly-thread.html)

DVD Polizei 06-21-15 12:59 PM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
Open societies does not equate to safe societies. I'm always confused when this subject comes up. I always try to EXCLUDE myself from being a suspect rather than acting like one.

Living Dead 06-21-15 01:27 PM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread

Originally Posted by Sean O'Hara (Post 12514704)
What about people who don't have IDs or didn't bother to bring them with them? Open societies do not require people to carry identification papers with them wherever they go.

I always have my wallet with me when I leave the house (unless I forget it), and I always have my ID in my wallet. Are there honestly a lot of people here who don't carry an ID? Not arguing, just curious.

Originally Posted by Me007gold (Post 12514730)
That's when you say you don't have it on you, but you still act respectful. Most of the issues come when people start getting belligerent with a cop.

Exactly. If I forgot my ID, I'd still have no problem giving my name or answering a few simple questions. Why make it difficult? I don't feel that a request for identification is unreasonable or means we're living in some kind of police state. Now, if you want to start searching me or my car for no reason, I will have a different reaction. But if a cop asks me for ID, I will give it to him. It's not a big deal.

Granted, I haven't been harassed as often as some others here apparently have, but if I had been, I'm pretty sure that would only make me more willing to give an ID just to avoid it.

CaptainMarvel 06-21-15 02:15 PM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread

Originally Posted by Sean O'Hara (Post 12514853)
I specifically said, "Open societies do not require people to carry identification papers with them wherever they go." Of the countries you list, only Luxembourg and the Netherlands require you to do that. The others either have no requirement, or allow you to present the card at some future date. So for values of many=2, you have a point.

Your original statement was, "open societies do not require people to carry identification papers with them wherever they go." And my original questions was, "says who?" Where is that set out as the bright line rule that distinguishes open societies?

If you want to quibble with my use of "many," go ahead. That doesn't change the fact that your original statement was an absolute claim that open societies don't require people to carry identification, so if you're conceding that Luxembourg and Netherlands do, then you're already wrong. Unless you're claiming they don't qualify as open societies, but considering they're typically ranked in the top 15 most free countries (far higher than us), I'd be curious what criteria you're using in that case.

Except that many jurisdictions don't make it a crime to drive without a license in your possession. If you get stopped, the cop writes a citation, but you can get it dismissed simply by presenting your license at a later date.
That is some twisted parsing of the law.

If the law says you have to obtain a license to drive, and you have to have that license in your possession, and that you're required to provide that to the officer during a traffic stop, and you can be punished if you don't have the license in your possession, that's "mandatory" identification by any sense of the word.

If you get stopped while driving by an officer, and he asks for your license, you can either tell him you don't have a license period (in which case you'll get a ticket for "driving without obtaining license" - one crime) or you can tell him you DO have a license, but don't have it in your possession ("no driver's license in possession" - a different offense)... but if you do the latter, you'd still need to provide him with your identifying information so he can look you up to make sure you do indeed own a valid license. Either way, you have to identify yourself.

Yes, you typically can get "no license in possession" tickets dismissed, but the fact that they'll dismiss the charge if the defendant later presents a valid license is irrelevant as to whether it's an offense... they do similar dismissals with all sorts of minor traffic tickets like "no insurance" or equipment violations ("fix-it tickets"), but nobody would say it's not mandatory to have headlights just because you can get the vehicle repaired after getting a ticket for not having headlights.

Red Dog 06-21-15 02:28 PM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread

Originally Posted by Living Dead (Post 12514899)
I always have my wallet with me when I leave the house (unless I forget it), and I always have my ID in my wallet. Are there honestly a lot of people here who don't carry an ID? Not arguing, just curious.

Is this a voter ID thread? ;)

CaptainMarvel 06-21-15 02:37 PM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
Sorry to quote myself, but Pharoh had been asking some questions about antipathy towards police. I said this:

Originally Posted by CaptainMarvel (Post 12512580)
I'm not really worried about antipathy towards police. It's cyclical. We're at an ebb point at the moment. The same thing happened in the 1960s, and the 1990's.

The day after I said that, Gallup came out with the results of a poll that showed public confidence in police was at the lowest point since 1993 (which was following some of the Rodney King aftermath).

25% of Americans say they have a great deal of confidence in the police
27% quite a lot of confidence
30% some confidence
16% very little confidence
2% no confidence

So 52% of Americans have either a "great deal" or "quite a lot of confidence" (for reference, that's down from a high in the low 60% range post 9/11, when people were about as friendly towards police as I've ever seen). Also for comparison, according to Gallup the public's confidence in the president is about 33%, Congress is 8%, and the state of the nation in general is 28%.

So yeah, things are sucky now, but I'm not worried about long term. Like I said, it will cycle. The media has found a cash cow trying to turn everything into a "police versus blacks" narrative, but they'll burn that story out soon enough and move on to something else.

kvrdave 06-21-15 04:35 PM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
This isn't about the cops, but more about the the law. There is certainly no justification for shooting the troopers retired police dog, but 23 years seems a bit excessive compared to the crime, especially for a 16 year old.


Teen shoots dog during burglary, gets 23 years

It's no small prison term: An 18-year-old boy was sentenced Friday to 23 years for a burglary in 2012 during which he shot a retired police dog, the Sun-Sentinel reports.

At age 16, Ivins Rosier confessed to breaking into the home of Florida Highway Patrol Trooper Robert Boody in West Palm Beach and shooting the 5-year-old German Shepherd, the newspaper noted in May.

Rosier's attorney argued that a detective "hustled" the boy during interrogation by equating the dog's death to the "murder of a law enforcement officer" (which wasn't legally true).

Rosier's attorney also wanted his client sentenced as a juvenile with a maximum sentence of 6 years, CBS 12 reports.

"I believe this to be sadistic to do this to a child," said Rosier's attorney, who plans to appeal. He conceded that Rosier's crimes were serious, "but when you look at the range of punishments available, that's why they call it juvenile."

Ultimately, Rosier's sentence resulted from convictions on three felony counts: cruelty to animals with a firearm, burglary of a dwelling with a firearm, and shooting into a building.

"A gun in a 16-year-old's hand can do equally the damage as a gun in an adult's hand," said the prosecuting attorney."He's not a child."

The trooper, Boody, cried when testifying about how he came home to find his dog crippled by gunshot wounds.

(In Utah, a 16-year-old boy faces as many as 15 years in prison for taking part in a robbery with friends.)
No real mention of the racial side of this, but I could see if I were in the black community that the system apparently values retired police dogs more than black teens. No way to know what a white kid would have ended up with, but this would piss me off.

emanon 06-21-15 07:08 PM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
What if the dog in Columbus had been a retired police dog? Cop-on-cop crime?!?

Bandoman 06-22-15 12:43 PM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
Cops strike woman over public drinking.

CPA-ESQ. 06-22-15 12:53 PM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread

Originally Posted by Bandoman (Post 12515636)
Black cops strike white woman over public drinking.

Fixed :D

Giantrobo 06-22-15 01:05 PM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
I swear Bruthah Cops always giving White Women a break. :(

Dave99 06-22-15 07:57 PM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
Two of the cops who shot the homeless guy in the desert in new mexico last year get 2nd degree murder charges.


andicus 06-25-15 04:51 PM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
Don't know if we have a cops behaving tolerantly thread, but this would be in it.

Far too patient, dealing with this dumbass:

movieguru 06-25-15 08:04 PM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread

Originally Posted by kvrdave (Post 12515019)
This isn't about the cops, but more about the the law. There is certainly no justification for shooting the troopers retired police dog, but 23 years seems a bit excessive compared to the crime, especially for a 16 year old.


No real mention of the racial side of this, but I could see if I were in the black community that the system apparently values retired police dogs more than black teens. No way to know what a white kid would have ended up with, but this would piss me off.

I usually feel sentences for crimes like this are too light. But they got this one right. I doubt that kid would have hesitated to use the gun against a human if one was home at the time. Sixteen is old enough to know right from wrong, and it's much safer with him behind bars for as long as possible.

CaptainMarvel 06-26-15 07:53 AM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
So, a former Baltimore officer, Michael Wood Jr, has started tweeting about misconduct he claims he saw working at Baltimore. Here's a link to the Radley Balko interview (As usual, the only cops that aren't treated with hostility and skepticism by Balko are whistleblowers).

Also, regarding that article, I greatly enjoy and read Peter Moskos' blog ("Cop in the Hood"). Moskos is an academic who basically got a job working in Baltimore for a year back in the early 2000s (I have -no- idea how he pulled that off). Here's his take on Wood's tweets, which I found interesting (I'm not going to cherry pick and bold, because it's all worth reading, good and bad):

Michael Wood Jr. has made some waves by tweeting about things he saw as a Baltimore cop.

[To get up to speed, single best thing to read now is the Balko interview.]

Honestly, I don't doubt what Wood says. I am curious if all the bad he saw came from his time in narcotics. And for better or for worse, he wasn't in narcotics long. I don't think he made an arrest since 2009. There has been lots of time to bring up these issues. Lots of time to go to IAD. In fact, he still could. But anyway...

I never worked a specialized unit. I didn't want to. I didn't like they way the worked. (I also wasn't there long enough anyway to get out of patrol.) I saw the drug squads tear up homes during raids. (I was sometimes the lone "uniform" out back.) It was immoral and ugly. Worst of all, it was legal.

End the drug war and 80 percent of police problems vanish.

But I'm curious, if Wood was a sergeant, did this stuff happen under his command? Because then it's also on him. But all in all, I have no reason not to take him at his word:
I will admit to some self interest in coming forward. I’d like to part of the solution. I woke up to this, and I think I can be a bridge. I speak the language cops speak. If there’s some task force or policing reform committee I can serve on, I’d love to do that.

Other than that, I think we just need more conversation.
Unlike Wood, I never had a "come to Jesus" moment working as a cop. The world -- and policing -- is filled with a lot of gray. I already knew the war on drugs was doomed. (What I learned as a cop on the front line was how that failure worked out on the front line.) I suppose I went in a bit more world weary and cynical than the average cop. I was older (29) than the average rookie. I lived in the city. I did not have a military us versus them attitude. I was college educated. Well traveled. I spent a lot of time with the police in Amsterdam (on and off from 1996 to 1999). So I had a certain perspective as to what I was seeing and doing on the job. I was not completely unfamiliar with the ghetto, black people, or urban life in general. I was not afraid.

I am afraid that lost in the sensationalism of a cop "telling all" will be the subtlety and nuance of what Wood is saying. It would be unfortunate were this just filed away as ammo in the "cops are bad" camp. I know -- as I presume Wood does -- too many cops who do care, do have empathy, and do work very hard to help people. I also know a lot of cops who maybe stopped caring, but still do a good job. And, sure I'm all for societal justice, but lofty ideals don't tell police what to do in neighborhoods with these kinds of problems!

In a very long radio interview Wood mentions something which deserves highlighting:
This job is largely impossible.

The expectation of the modern police officer is that they should be a medic. They need to be MapQuest. They need to be a jujitsu expert. They need to be a handgun superstar who can shoot somebody in the knee.... They need to be a psychiatrist. They need to understand mental illness. They need to be able drive effectively. They need to do all of this while making $45,000, having minimal training, and no education.
Wood makes the point that there's too much injustice in our society. He's right. And he's right that they're linked to race and class. He's right that the rules are different if you grow up in the ghetto. He's right that the war on drugs is a failure. And he's right that too many cops come from completely different backgrounds without any empathy or understanding of the area or the people in the area they police. He's right that what we're doing isn't working. He's right that police can do better.

Here's an interview of Wood by Radley Balko in the Washington Post:
What we’re doing to people to fight the drug war is insane. And the cops who do narcotics work — who really want to and enjoy the drug stuff — they’re just the worst. It’s completely dehumanizing. It strips you of your empathy.
I found his take on veterans as cops (he is one) interesting:
But when it comes to former military joining law enforcement, I’m in the camp that says they’re going to be better when it comes to shootings and using force. Bad police shootings are almost always the result of a cop being afraid.... The military strips you of fear. Here’s the thing: There’s nothing brave or heroic about shooting Tamir Rice the second you pull up to the scene. You know what is heroic? Approaching the young kid with the gun. Putting yourself at risk by waiting a few seconds to be sure that the kid really is a threat, that the gun is a real gun. The hero is the cop who hesitates to pull the trigger.

That’s where I think a military background can help. Very few of these bad shootings were by cops with a military background. There may have been a few, but I can’t think of one.
I've often said it would be nice if we could talk about some of the important issues before somebody dies. Maybe Wood is giving us that opportunity.

[Though he's wrong about the baton.]
I've got Moskos' book, and his experiences with the Baltimore police were vastly different. If the allegations by Wood are true, then that behavior has no place in policing.

As for myself, what Wood describes seems completely alien to me, and I can outright reject his claims in the interview with Balko that this sort of thing is happening everywhere. And if Wood really was a sergeant when all this went on around him and let it happen, then he's as much of a part of the problem... I can't believe Balko gives him such a pass on that in Balko's interview.

Dave99 06-26-15 08:34 AM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
Full agreement that the war on drugs is a disaster and one that will never be won. We need to go in an entirely different direction.

robin2099 06-26-15 10:36 AM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread

Originally Posted by movieguru (Post 12519381)
I usually feel sentences for crimes like this are too light. But they got this one right. I doubt that kid would have hesitated to use the gun against a human if one was home at the time. Sixteen is old enough to know right from wrong, and it's much safer with him behind bars for as long as possible.


kvrdave 06-27-15 10:39 AM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread

VIDEO: Cop Pulls Man Over, Refuses to Let Him Show Insurance, Gives Him Ticket for No Insurance

Racine, WI — James Wells was driving through town this week when he was stopped by a cop for a missing front license plate.

During the stop, Wells says the officer refused to let him get his insurance, after she asked him for his insurance. The officer then wrote him a ticket for failure to provide proof of insurance!

As the officer is writing up the various pieces of paper that will be used to extort this man, Wells grabs his cell phone and proceeds to go off.

“When she came to the car and she asked if I have a drivers license, I said yes, I have to look for it though it’s in my glove compartment. She said no, I don’t know what you’re reaching for, do not reach for it,” Wells explains the officer’s fearful tactics.

“When you ask me if I have insurance, and I reach to show you my insurance you get scared? And then you assume I don’t have any,” says Wells, describing the irrational nature of this officer.

“What am I gonna reach for”? asks Wells. “Am I gonna reach for a football? Or one of my books”?

When the officer returns to the car to give Wells his seemingly erroneous tickets, he lets her have it.

“This is the kind of cop that will shoot you! Right here. This is the kind of cop that will shoot you.” exclaims Wells.

The cop then attempts to flex her authority even more by demanding Wells submit to her a fingerprint.

“You’re not touching my finger. You had the chance to get my license, you asked me not to grab it,” said Wells.

“No, you were reaching all over for it,” says the officer.

“What do you mean, reaching all over, this is my car,” he says. “What am I going to reach for, a Bible? My books? What am I going to reach for? ”

“You are very afraid,” says Wells to the officer. “You should not be a cop. You cannot do this job. You are not good at what you do. You are very afraid.”

“I will not give you my index finger.”

After Wells stands his ground and refuses to be fingerprinted, the officer attempts to flex her authority and have Wells remove his license plate cover. Again, he successfully stands his ground.

At the end of the encounter, the officer realizes she is dealing with a mentally strong man who does not bow down to intimidation tactics, and she ends the stop.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/CopgP8RNNw4" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

After taking this police harassment life a true professional, Wells says that he was able to take a photo of the Police Chief’s personal vehicle, showing that it had not front plates either.

This is pretty wild. We talk about how we should just do what the officer says, but what if they won't let you do what they ask? And then she wants a fingerprint? :lol: She gives up pretty damn quickly.

Dave99 06-27-15 12:36 PM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
Would have been nice to see the officer saying on video that he couldn't open his glove box to get his paperwork. I'd assume he didn't start recording until after that.

kvrdave 06-27-15 01:05 PM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
She sure didn't disagree on that point. She must be new or something. It is hard to imagine an officer telling you to remove your license plate cover and after you refuse they simply say, "have a nice day." My guess (and that is all it is) is that dispatch, or someone similar, told her to ask for a fingerprint. I can't imagine why she would ask for that either.

kvrdave 06-27-15 02:03 PM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
Again, guys in the car weren't very cooperative. But I'm wondering what the first cop told dispatch for the second one to act the way he did. "I'll fucking...I'll put a round in you so quick."

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/3UXr9mG99JI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

DaveyJoe 06-27-15 02:09 PM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
Maybe the cop meant he's buying first round?

kvrdave 06-27-15 02:13 PM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread

I have to quit looking at these. It will definitely make you lose your faith in the police. Like this guy who is arrested because his license plate is obstructed. Thank God we got him off the streets and took him to jail before something bad really happened as a result of an obstructed license plate. I feel safer.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/fMhNFGzqtIQ" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

andicus 06-28-15 03:13 PM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
^That one was brutal. What an idiot that cop was.

Full lawsuit is here: http://www.scribd.com/doc/136215761/...ames-Westbrook

kvrdave 06-28-15 03:31 PM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
No shit. Arrests him for an obstructed license plate, yet had called in and given dispatch the license number prior to stopping him. That sure as fuck won't help his case. :lol:

edit: Damn, the officer was reprimanded and suspended without pay for 38 days. That may not help either.

inri222 06-29-15 08:22 AM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread

Law enforcement seeks to bar release of video showing Gardena police shooting

Organizations representing police chiefs and officers from around the state have filed legal briefs supporting an effort to bar the release of videos that recorded Gardena police fatally shooting an unarmed man and seriously wounding another.

The Los Angeles County Police Chief’s Assn., California Police Chiefs’ Assn., California State Sheriffs’ Assn. and California Peace Officers' Assn. in court papers filed last week said that sealing such evidence is common practice nationwide. They cited concerns about violating the privacy of the officers involved and the possibility of interfering with investigations.

Dashboard cameras from three police cars recorded parts of the June 2, 2013, shooting of Ricardo Diaz-Zeferino, who was struck eight times and died from his injuries. Another man, Eutiquio Acevedo Mendez, also suffered a gunshot wound to his back, leaving bullet fragments near his spine.

everal news outlets, including the Los Angeles Times, are seeking to make public the footage under seal in a federal civil rights suit, arguing that by not releasing it, Gardena violated the public’s right to information. The Associated Press and Bloomberg are part of the effort.

At the center of the dispute over the videos is whether Diaz-Zeferino moved his hands in a way that gave officers the impression he was reaching for a weapon in the seconds before he was shot, as investigators concluded. An attorney representing the families of both men who were shot has said that the videos show that Diaz-Zeferino’s right hand was clearly empty and in front of his body when the shots were fired.

The city has paid $4.7 million to the families of Diaz-Zeferino and Mendez to settle a civil rights lawsuit over the shooting.

Attorneys for the law enforcement organizations warned that disclosure of the videos could discourage the use of cameras by police agencies and could undermine trust in the police. An attorney for the state chiefs association noted that Gardena settled the civil rights case believing the videos wouldn't become public.

"The defendants paid over $4 million to buy their peace," the attorneys said in a statement.

The Gardena shooting occurred after a bicycle was stolen from outside a CVS drugstore on Western Avenue. A police dispatcher mistakenly told officers that the crime was a robbery, which usually involves a theft using weapons or force, and officers headed to the area in search of two suspects.

Sgt. Christopher Cuff saw two men riding bicycles east on Redondo Beach Boulevard. The men were friends of the bike theft victim and were searching for the missing bicycle. Mistaking them for the thieves, Cuff ordered the men to stop and put their hands up, according to a district attorney's memo written by a prosecutor who reviewed the police videos.

Diaz-Zeferino, whose brother owned the stolen bicycle, ran up to his friends as they stood before the police car. A dash camera video captured him yelling at the sergeant, who screamed in English and Spanish for Diaz-Zeferino to stop advancing, the district attorney's memo said.

Diaz-Zeferino raised his hands, pounded his chest with both hands and said something that was inaudible, the memo said. One of his friends later told investigators that Diaz-Zeferino was explaining that police had stopped the wrong people.

Two more police cars arrived, and three officers emerged with guns drawn.

The patrol car video showed Diaz-Zeferino dropping his hands and reaching to his right waistband or rear right pocket and making a tossing motion, dropping an object on the ground, the district attorney's memo said. He raised his hands, then repeated the move and removed something from his left rear pocket, the memo said.

"You do it again, you're going to get shot," yelled an officer on the video, according to the memo.

Diaz-Zeferino removed his baseball hat and lowered his hands. As he began to raise his hands again, three of the officers opened fire, the district attorney's memo said.

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