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-   -   The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread (https://forum.dvdtalk.com/religion-politics-world-events/597561-cops-behaving-badly-thread.html)

kvrdave 06-18-15 11:41 AM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 

Originally Posted by CaptainMarvel (Post 12512364)

Instead of cherrypicking the unfavorable statistics out of that survey and ignoring the favorable ones (such as: Your police department takes a very tough stance on improper behavior by police: Strongly Agree: 35.2 / Agree: 57.4 / Disagree: 6.6 / Strongly Disagree: 0.9), why not post their overall conclusions:

Simple reason. I didn't know I could copy and paste from a PDF. Just tried and it worked, but most have never let me, so I didn't even try. And I knew you would. :wub:

CaptainMarvel 06-18-15 11:51 AM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 

Originally Posted by Pharoh (Post 12512401)
However, those singular successes don't really speak to the overall efficacy, especially in light of the seeming growing antipathy towards police. (I haven't seen any numbers on that, just my impression.) For example, wouldn't increased restriction on gun access stop some murders? Wouldn't more stringent background checks and wait periods do the same?

I'm sure there are some gun control methods that would reduce murders, and some that would be wholly ineffective (waiting periods). The issue with and opposition to the former methods isn't a matter of their efficacy, but the extent to which they infringe on a right (2nd Amendment). I wouldn't suggest police should violate somebody's 4th Amendment rights either, even though that could be very effective at helping reduce crime.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make... are you suggesting police should stop trying to enforce the law because enforcing the law leads to antipathy?

Draven 06-18-15 12:11 PM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 

Originally Posted by EddieMoney (Post 12512154)
Seems we wouldn't have half of the stories in this thread if people would just fucking do what they're told to by police officers. There are exceptions, but Jesus, seems everyone feels their initial response should be to be combative.

People have watched too many Youtube videos.

I understand you have a personal vendetta against social media, but it could simply be that because we all now have the technology to record it, we're seeing more examples of something that has been happening for years. It just didn't make national news before because there was no proof and who's going to believe the average citizen (especially if they are non-white) over a cop without tangible proof? Hell, we have blatant proof of misconduct in this very thread and there are still people taking the police officers' side.

CaptainMarvel 06-18-15 12:28 PM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 
I think assuming social media had something to do with it is a fair conclusion, at least in this instance:

Deven's father and girlfriend reported that, in the days and weeks preceding this traffic stop, Deven was focused on YouTube videos of police encounters with citizens. While not expressing harsh anti-police rhetoric, Deven was supporting the videos as examples of police violating people' s rights and "how bad cops are". They said that Deven's focus on these videos was recent, sudden, out of the ordinary, and may have influenced Deven in this traffic stop. His father reported that, in recent days, he tried to counsel his son that these videos did not show how all police acted. Deven' s act of recording the traffic stop may have been intended for YouTube. Deven held his phone to focus on Sgt. Frost and narrated "This is what American..." as Sgt. Frost ordered him to put the phone down and move his arms to his side so he could be handcuffed.

EddieMoney 06-18-15 12:31 PM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 
Like I said...watching too many Youtube videos.

Dave99 06-18-15 12:39 PM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 
I think from all the youtube videos, there is 1 overriding lesson to be learned, which is to not film in portrait mode. I think we can all get behind that one.

CaptainMarvel 06-18-15 12:43 PM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 

Originally Posted by Dave99 (Post 12512484)
I think from all the youtube videos, there is 1 overriding lesson to be learned, which is to not film in portrait mode. I think we can all get behind that one.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Th0r S1mpson 06-18-15 01:11 PM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 
I like portrait mode. On most cell phones, if you film landscape you don't have a lot of height available unless you stand way back. You're not making a feature film here. Portrait just makes more sense.

What needs to change is Youtube's lack of support for properly displaying portrait videos.

Pharoh 06-18-15 01:29 PM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 

Originally Posted by CaptainMarvel (Post 12512425)
I'm sure there are some gun control methods that would reduce murders, and some that would be wholly ineffective (waiting periods). The issue with and opposition to the former methods isn't a matter of their efficacy, but the extent to which they infringe on a right (2nd Amendment). I wouldn't suggest police should violate somebody's 4th Amendment rights either, even though that could be very effective at helping reduce crime.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make... are you suggesting police should stop trying to enforce the law because enforcing the law leads to antipathy?

First, I don't think there can be a question as to whether waiting periods would stop some specific crimes. The efficacy of the implementation of waiting periods is not, and should not, be judged by those singular instances. Just as the practice of "small stops" should not be.

My larger question, since it really isn't a point, is: does the practice of these small stops actually reduce harmful and violent crimes significantly enough to outweigh the negatives, with the negatives being the potential easy infringement of Constitutional rights, intentionally or unintentionally, and the corresponding antipathy towards police?

I would also point out that while some type of justification can often be found for these small stops, (not confined to vehicular stops, by the way), thus not making them a clear case of a violation of rights, it certainly is a fine line, one that is easily stepped over.

inri222 06-18-15 01:36 PM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 
Dashcam Video Shows Chicago Police Officer Firing At Black Teens In Car

http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2015/06/...-teens-in-car/

CaptainMarvel 06-18-15 01:53 PM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 

Originally Posted by Pharoh (Post 12512545)
First, I don't think there can be a question as to whether waiting periods would stop some specific crimes. The efficacy of the implementation of waiting periods is not, and should not, be judged by those singular instances. Just as the practice of "small stops" should not be.

My larger question, since it really isn't a point, is: does the practice of these small stops actually reduce harmful and violent crimes significantly enough to outweigh the negatives, with the negatives being the potential easy infringement of Constitutional rights, intentionally or unintentionally, and the corresponding antipathy towards police?

I would also point out that while some type of justification can often be found for these small stops, (not confined to vehicular stops, by the way), thus not making them a clear case of a violation of rights, it certainly is a fine line, one that is easily stepped over.

This isn't a gun control thread, so I don't want to get dragged into a debate on the efficacy of waiting periods. I think they're hokum, but we can debate that elsewhere.

I suppose the answer to your question depends on what you consider "harmful or violent crimes." If you are only looking at major felonies, then probably not (although they certainly do get discovered during otherwise mundane traffic stops). Most traffic stops don't end up rounding up robbers and murderers.

But I suppose I'm inferring that you don't believe most traffic offenses are "harmful"? I would have to disagree there if so. If I stop somebody for a tag light being out, and I find they don't have a license, or have a revoked license, or are driving without insurance, or any one of the other traffic laws we have to make our roadways safe to use, I consider that a sufficient societal good in and of itself, whether or not the stop nets a rapist or murderer.

I would also add that these stops aren't necessarily catalysts for antipathy. Sometimes they're an opportunity for improving relations. I've received commendation letters from citizens for circumstances where I pulled them over, let them know there was a problem with their vehicle, and given them a warning. It sounds like the officer we've been discussing did the same in the stop prior to the one in the video. 99% of people aren't like the asshole on the traffic stop in the video.

I'm not really worried about antipathy towards police. It's cyclical. We're at an ebb point at the moment. The same thing happened in the 1960s, and the 1990's. And I'm even less worried about slippery slope arguments regarding potential for abuse; cameras (on both sides) are proliferating, and the potential for abuse is only going to decrease as they become more common.

Mark_vdH 06-18-15 02:17 PM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 

Originally Posted by Th0r S1mpson (Post 12512523)
I like portrait mode. On most cell phones, if you film landscape you don't have a lot of height available unless you stand way back. You're not making a feature film here. Portrait just makes more sense.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/Bt9zSfinwFA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>[/QUOTE]

Draven 06-18-15 03:58 PM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 

Originally Posted by Th0r S1mpson (Post 12512523)
I like portrait mode. On most cell phones, if you film landscape you don't have a lot of height available unless you stand way back. You're not making a feature film here. Portrait just makes more sense.

What needs to change is Youtube's lack of support for properly displaying portrait videos.

Unless you're watching a video on a cellphone (and you can't turn it sideways for some reason), then every other screen (computer monitor, TV, etc.) is already a layed out as a widescreen.

So unless that video is being watched in one specific location (a cellphone that hasn't been turned sideways) there is nothing but wasted space on either side.

Dave99 06-18-15 05:58 PM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 

Originally Posted by inri222 (Post 12512554)
Dashcam Video Shows Chicago Police Officer Firing At Black Teens In Car

http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2015/06/...-teens-in-car/

nice gangbanger weapon holding there. And the "I'm concerned about a passenger getting dragged, so I'll fire on the car where people are sitting in close proximity to each other" is brilliant.

Still under investigation, why the hell would it take 18 months at this point to investigate this? I can't fathom any logical solution other than the following possibilities:
1) To sweep it under the rug and maybe people will just forget about it
2) To let time pass until the officer can get to retirement
3) To let the statute of limitations run out on any criminal charges

DVD Polizei 06-18-15 06:14 PM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 
Was there a pool nearby?

Th0r S1mpson 06-18-15 06:15 PM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 

Originally Posted by Draven (Post 12512717)
Unless you're watching a video on a cellphone (and you can't turn it sideways for some reason), then every other screen (computer monitor, TV, etc.) is already a layed out as a widescreen.

So unless that video is being watched in one specific location (a cellphone that hasn't been turned sideways) there is nothing but wasted space on either side.

Yeah, I'd say 90% of the videos I watch these days are on my cell phone. And on a desktop, I don't watch youtube videos full screen.

kvrdave 06-20-15 11:22 AM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 
This is more of a "cops behaving incompetently" situation. Cop hears a cry for help (homeowners sister cut herself in the kitchen), cop approaches the house with posted "Beware of Dog" signs. Dog charges the officer at the door, cop attempts to shoot the dog and instead shoots a 4 year old girl in the leg.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/R79FXwMuSjc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

DVD Polizei 06-20-15 11:34 AM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 
Babies bite worse than dogs.

Living Dead 06-21-15 01:40 AM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 
I've never understood people refusing to give a cop their ID. Even if you feel your rights are being violated, how hard is it to give someone your ID? That's one of the reasons we have them in the first place. Half the videos I see of people getting beaten/killed begin simply because they refuse to show their ID. What's the big deal?

Sean O'Hara 06-21-15 02:00 AM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 

Originally Posted by Living Dead (Post 12514700)
I've never understood people refusing to give a cop their ID. Even if you feel your rights are being violated, how hard is it to give someone your ID? That's one of the reasons we have them in the first place. Half the videos I see of people getting beaten/killed begin simply because they refuse to show their ID. What's the big deal?

What about people who don't have IDs or didn't bother to bring them with them? Open societies do not require people to carry identification papers with them wherever they go.

Me007gold 06-21-15 06:32 AM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 

Originally Posted by Sean O'Hara (Post 12514704)
What about people who don't have IDs or didn't bother to bring them with them? Open societies do not require people to carry identification papers with them wherever they go.

That's when you say you don't have it on you, but you still act respectful. Most of the issues come when people start getting belligerent with a cop.

CaptainMarvel 06-21-15 06:40 AM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 

Originally Posted by Sean O'Hara (Post 12514704)
What about people who don't have IDs or didn't bother to bring them with them? Open societies do not require people to carry identification papers with them wherever they go.

Says who? Many open societies do in fact have some compulsory identification requirements, including Israel and EU countries like Germany, Portugal, Luxembourg, Netherlands, et al. ( https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List...ies_by_country ).

But that's beside the point, because 1) most of these altercations involve people driving, which does necessitate identification, and 2) many of the altercations don't revolve around a person refusing to provide an identification card, but refusing to identify themselves altogether.

slop101 06-21-15 08:51 AM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 
You don't need to have an ID on you. I once got busted for jaywalking, and they just asked me my name & address, looked me up that way, and sent me the ticket. And this was a long time ago, like before Google, so I'm sure it's even easier to look people up now.

Psi 06-21-15 10:58 AM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 

Originally Posted by Living Dead (Post 12514700)
I've never understood people refusing to give a cop their ID. Even if you feel your rights are being violated, how hard is it to give someone your ID? That's one of the reasons we have them in the first place. Half the videos I see of people getting beaten/killed begin simply because they refuse to show their ID. What's the big deal?

I don't think that's the right way or right time to argue over whether people should show their ID, but I think some folks who resist are just fed up or frustrated, and sometimes that leads to escalation on both sides.

This is what Eric Garner was saying to the officer(s) before he died:

http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/04/us/garner-last-words/

Every time you see me, you want to mess with me. I'm tired of it. It stops today. Why would you...? Everyone standing here will tell you I didn't do nothing. I did not sell nothing. Because every time you see me, you want to harass me. You want to stop me (garbled) Selling cigarettes. I'm minding my business, officer, I'm minding my business. Please just leave me alone. I told you the last time, please just leave me alone. please please, don't touch me. Do not touch me."
Clearly there was some history there, and the man just finally had enough.

Sean O'Hara 06-21-15 12:01 PM

Re: The "Cops Behaving Badly" Thread
 

Originally Posted by CaptainMarvel (Post 12514731)
Says who? Many open societies do in fact have some compulsory identification requirements, including Israel and EU countries like Germany, Portugal, Luxembourg, Netherlands, et al. ( https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List...ies_by_country ).

I specifically said, "Open societies do not require people to carry identification papers with them wherever they go." Of the countries you list, only Luxembourg and the Netherlands require you to do that. The others either have no requirement, or allow you to present the card at some future date. So for values of many=2, you have a point.


But that's beside the point, because 1) most of these altercations involve people driving, which does necessitate identification, and 2) many of the altercations don't revolve around a person refusing to provide an identification card, but refusing to identify themselves altogether.
Except that many jurisdictions don't make it a crime to drive without a license in your possession. If you get stopped, the cop writes a citation, but you can get it dismissed simply by presenting your license at a later date.


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