Religion, Politics and World Events They make great dinner conversation, don't you think? plus Political Film

USA / Iran Nuclear Megathread

Old 09-10-15, 08:09 PM
  #401  
DVD Talk Platinum Edition
 
Ghostbuster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 3,737
Re: USA / Iran Nuclear Megathread

Originally Posted by DVD Polizei View Post
What strategy are you talking about, and what was this failure.
Bush's strategy involved sanctions and intimidation. I already posted a news article from 2008 about the failure of the Bush administration, but I'll add more info here.

Fox News Embarrasses Dick Cheney on Iraq and Iran at HuffingtonPost.com

Former Vice President Dick Cheney on Sunday shrugged off the rapid growth of Iran's nuclear capacity during the Bush years, insisting that the American invasion of Iraq had curbed Iranian nuclear ambitions.

"There was military action that had an impact on the Iranians when we took down Saddam Hussein," Cheney said on "Fox News Sunday." "There was a period of time when they stopped their program because they were afraid what we did to Saddam we were going to do to them next."

The invasion of Iraq in fact deeply strengthened Iran's hand in the region, ousting a traditional enemy of Iran and installing a new government far more sympathetic to the Iranian regime. Much of Iraq has effectively functioned as a client state of Iran for years.

Fox News host Chris Wallace pointed out to Cheney that Iran had no uranium enrichment centrifuges prior to the Iraq War, but had 5,000 of them by the time Bush and Cheney left office.

Cheney waved off the statistic. "I think we did a lot to deal with the arms control problem in the Middle East," he said.
On a more serious note, are you going to hold Obama, Kerry, and all Democrats (and any Republicans) who vote for this bill responsible for anything Iran does?
Iran is responsible for Iran's actions. I don't subscribe to the theory that the US controls the world. We can influence the actions of others, of course. That's the purpose of the nuclear deal. To the extent that outsiders could be said to be responsible for Iran's actions, many parties share responsibility.
Ghostbuster is offline  
Old 09-10-15, 08:10 PM
  #402  
DVD Talk Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Lower Gum Curve
Posts: 18,941
Re: USA / Iran Nuclear Megathread

Originally Posted by DVD Polizei View Post
Yeah, we sure did lose. Including you.

Israel Will Not Exist 25 Years From Now
It's interesting that you consider Khamenei a more credible, reliable source than our own president.
Jason is offline  
Old 09-11-15, 11:46 AM
  #403  
Suspended
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 52,192
Re: USA / Iran Nuclear Megathread

It's interesting you consider Obama, a better authority on Iran's intentions and goals, than the terrorist Khamenei himself.
DVD Polizei is offline  
Old 09-11-15, 11:56 AM
  #404  
Suspended
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 52,192
Re: USA / Iran Nuclear Megathread

Originally Posted by eXcentris View Post
Political rhetoric to appease the hardliners who hate this deal as much as Bibi and the Republicans.
So, if Iran makes a threat to other countries, including our own, what factors do you use to determine whether it's just rhetoric...or the real thing.

Wait until the US has more buildings blown up or crashed into?

Wait until Israel gets attacked with newly-developed weapons?

Originally Posted by eXcentris View Post
Billion not million.
You're right. It's $150 Billion.

Originally Posted by eXcentris View Post
However, it's THEIR money (frozen assets). So I don't know how you came to believe that that money could have been spent in the US.
The US is sitting on money that belongs to a terrorist country. The money should have been forfeited. Why was the US sitting on terrorist assets. Iran gives Hezbollah around $100 million or more each year, and we're just sitting back in our expensive chairs in Washington, writing out a fucking check to them.

3,000 Americans (including Muslims) died.

14 years later, Democrats celebrate a victory of US negotiations with a terrorist country, giving them back billions of dollars of their terrorist assets.

Priceless.

Pathetic.
DVD Polizei is offline  
Old 09-11-15, 12:03 PM
  #405  
Suspended
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 52,192
Re: USA / Iran Nuclear Megathread

Originally Posted by Ghostbuster View Post
Iran is responsible for Iran's actions. I don't subscribe to the theory that the US controls the world. We can influence the actions of others, of course. That's the purpose of the nuclear deal. To the extent that outsiders could be said to be responsible for Iran's actions, many parties share responsibility.
And this is going to be the classic response from Obama and everyone else that supported this deal when Iran makes several violations in the future.

"Hey, we didn't have control over Iran, and they made the decision to breach their agreement." - Obama, Democrat Party, et al.

So, if Iran does violate their agreement, at that point I'm going to ask the same question: Why did we make the deal if we knew they wouldn't abide by it.
DVD Polizei is offline  
Old 09-11-15, 12:50 PM
  #406  
DVD Talk Ruler
 
General Zod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Santa Clarita, CA
Posts: 21,251
Re: USA / Iran Nuclear Megathread

Originally Posted by DVD Polizei View Post
So, if Iran does violate their agreement, at that point I'm going to ask the same question: Why did we make the deal if we knew they wouldn't abide by it.
Well my opinion is this. We decided Iran is going to build the bomb anyhow and , yes, they may bomb Israel out of existence but we are willing to take that chance rather than face the political downfall of continuing sanctions.

However I think in the end this "deal" is a completely worthless piece of paper on both sides. I think Israel will take military action in the future with our blessings or not and I think Iran is still laughing about this whole thing about how completely stupid this whole thing is. Meanwhile the Obama admin will jerk themselves off about how amazing they they did with this until in the future when it all breaks down and they'll say how they didn't see this coming.
General Zod is offline  
Old 09-11-15, 01:48 PM
  #407  
DVD Talk Hero
 
slop101's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: So. Cal.
Posts: 39,058
Re: USA / Iran Nuclear Megathread

Also, if we start trading with them, and they become reliant on our trade/economy, they're far less likely to renenge on the deal if it means they won't be getting their promised allocations of iPhones.
slop101 is offline  
Old 09-11-15, 02:05 PM
  #408  
DVD Talk Hero
 
JasonF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 39,175
Re: USA / Iran Nuclear Megathread

Clearly, with China, Russia, and the EU committed to lifting sanctions, the thing to maintain sanctions. It worked with Cuba, right?
JasonF is offline  
Old 09-11-15, 02:14 PM
  #409  
Moderator
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: In mourning
Posts: 26,218
Re: USA / Iran Nuclear Megathread

Originally Posted by JasonF View Post
Clearly, with China, Russia, and the EU committed to lifting sanctions, the thing to maintain sanctions. It worked with Cuba, right?
Assuming this to be true, that China Russia, and the EU were growing increasingly tired of the sanctions and were not going to continue much longer with them, what is the rationale for why they would support the "snapping back" of sanctions if a violation is deemed to have occurred?
Pharoh is offline  
Old 09-11-15, 02:47 PM
  #410  
DVD Talk Hero
 
JasonF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 39,175
Re: USA / Iran Nuclear Megathread

Originally Posted by Pharoh View Post
Assuming this to be true, that China Russia, and the EU were growing increasingly tired of the sanctions and were not going to continue much longer with them, what is the rationale for why they would support the "snapping back" of sanctions if a violation is deemed to have occurred?
If there's someone in prison for robbery, and I support paroling him, and then later I find out he's planning another robbery, I'd support putting him back in jail even though I previously supported paroling him.
JasonF is offline  
Old 09-11-15, 02:54 PM
  #411  
DVD Talk Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 11,747
Re: USA / Iran Nuclear Megathread

Originally Posted by JasonF View Post
If there's someone in prison for robbery, and I support paroling him, and then later I find out he's planning another robbery, I'd support putting him back in jail even though I previously supported paroling him.
In this analogy, are you currently selling him missile systems?
dork is offline  
Old 09-11-15, 03:46 PM
  #412  
DVD Talk Hero
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Montreal, Canada
Posts: 29,307
Re: USA / Iran Nuclear Megathread

Originally Posted by DVD Polizei View Post
So, if Iran makes a threat to other countries, including our own, what factors do you use to determine whether it's just rhetoric...or the real thing.
Actions, not words. Iran is far more predictable and pragmatic than you seem to believe.

Wait until the US has more buildings blown up or crashed into?
What the heck does this have to do with 9/11??? When is the last time Hamas or Hezbollah blew shit up in the US? Answer: never.

Wait until Israel gets attacked with newly-developed weapons?
Again, what makes you think Iran will ever attack Israel knowing they would be completely obliterated if that happens. Again, stop listening to rhetoric from politicians.

Plus, this deal means closer scrutiny. Closer scrutiny leads to better intel. Even Israeli intelligence agree with this.

The US is sitting on money that belongs to a terrorist country. The money should have been forfeited. Why was the US sitting on terrorist assets. Iran gives Hezbollah around $100 million or more each year, and we're just sitting back in our expensive chairs in Washington, writing out a fucking check to them.
Again, it's their money. $100 billion or not they will continue to fund Hamas and Hezbollah regardless. Plus what makes you think they will spend most or all that money on funding terrorism. They owe China 50 billion. Plus the CIA believes most of the money will be spent locally on the economy/infrastructure.
eXcentris is offline  
Old 09-11-15, 04:12 PM
  #413  
Moderator
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: In mourning
Posts: 26,218
Re: USA / Iran Nuclear Megathread

Originally Posted by JasonF View Post
If there's someone in prison for robbery, and I support paroling him, and then later I find out he's planning another robbery, I'd support putting him back in jail even though I previously supported paroling him.
Originally Posted by dork View Post
In this analogy, are you currently selling him missile systems?
Not to mention that the person you support paroling has been continuing to disregard the authorities, and continuing to engage in criminal behaviour that would normally result in a lenghtened sentence, not parole.

Hence why I don't get it.
Pharoh is offline  
Old 09-12-15, 12:27 PM
  #414  
DVD Talk Hero
 
inri222's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 45,685
Re: USA / Iran Nuclear Megathread

Dick Cheney should do the world a favor and jump off the roof of One World Trade Center.

<div style="background-color:#000000;width:520px;"><div style="padding:4px;"><iframe src="http://media.mtvnservices.com/embed/mgid:arc:video:comedycentral.com:3a8db024-ed64-40d4-92f6-1714370b4605" width="512" height="288" frameborder="0"></iframe><p style="text-align:left;background-color:#FFFFFF;padding:4px;margin-top:4px;margin-bottom:0px;font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12px;"><b><a href="http://www.cc.com/shows/the-nightly-show">The Nightly Show with Larry Wilmore</a></b><br/>Get More: <a href="http://www.cc.com/shows/the-nightly-show/full-episodes">The Nightly Show Full Episodes</a>,<a href="https://www.facebook.com/thenightlyshow">The Nightly Show on Facebook</a>,<a href="http://www.cc.com/shows/the-nightly-show/video-clips">The Nightly Show Video Archive</a></p></div></div>
inri222 is online now  
Old 09-12-15, 01:03 PM
  #415  
DVD Talk Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Lower Gum Curve
Posts: 18,941
Re: USA / Iran Nuclear Megathread

Originally Posted by DVD Polizei View Post
So, if Iran does violate their agreement, at that point I'm going to ask the same question: Why did we make the deal if we knew they wouldn't abide by it.
Because we didn't "know" anything of the sort. If the State Department had the same misgivings as the know-it-alls on the Internet, we wouldn't be signing the deal in the first place.
Jason is offline  
Old 09-12-15, 01:17 PM
  #416  
Needs to check his email
 
mspmms's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Indianapolis,IN
Posts: 13,148
Re: USA / Iran Nuclear Megathread

Gee, what are the odds....

Iran says finds unexpectedly high uranium reserve

Iran has discovered an unexpectedly high reserve of uranium and will soon begin extracting the radioactive element at a new mine, the head of Iran's Atomic Energy Organisation said on Saturday.

mspmms is offline  
Old 09-12-15, 01:23 PM
  #417  
Suspended
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 52,192
Re: USA / Iran Nuclear Megathread

Iran: "We're using our newly-found supply for scientific purposes."

DVD P: "Ok, so entertain my nutsack for a moment---

Iran: "...."

DVD P: "---what scientific purposes?"

Iran: " The science of killing Jews and Americans. Do you not know our history."
DVD Polizei is offline  
Old 09-12-15, 01:33 PM
  #418  
Suspended
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 52,192
Re: USA / Iran Nuclear Megathread

JAMES M. ACTON; Article ; November 26, 2013

Critics were decrying the nascent interim agreement on Iran’s nuclear program as a sellout even before negotiations in Geneva ended. An “unbelievable Christmas present” for Iran was Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s choice sound bite. The critics argue that, instead of reaching an agreement that freezes Tehran’s nuclear progress, the United States and its negotiating partners, collectively known as the P5+1, should have held out for the complete dismantlement of Iran’s uranium enrichment activities.

This criticism is wrong. The relevant comparison is not between the Geneva deal and a perfect deal, but between this deal and no deal. Compared to no deal, the Geneva agreement advances the security of the United States and its allies and friends, including Israel.

To accurately assess the Geneva deal, four questions need to be answered. First, if Iran abides by the agreement, how much further will it be from the bomb than if there had been no agreement? Second, has the P5+1 made disproportionate concessions to get the deal? Third, if Iran violates the terms of the Geneva agreement, is its noncompliance likely to be detected? And, fourth, if noncompliance is detected, can anything meaningful be done about it?

The answers to all of these questions demonstrate that the deal is a good one.

Absent the Geneva deal, Iran could expand its enrichment program rapidly and dramatically at any time it chooses. In addition to its 9,000 or so first-generation centrifuges that are enriching uranium, Iran has around 7,700 machines installed but not operating. Because some of these idle machines are of a relatively efficient second-generation design, Tehran could more than double its enrichment capability simply by switching on these centrifuges. Iran also possesses a stockpile of uranium enriched to 20 percent that could be rapidly converted into weapons-usable material.

The Geneva deal obliges Iran to give up that stockpile, to refrain from operating the idle centrifuges, and to halt the production and installation of new centrifuges. As such, it will keep Tehran a month or two away from being able to manufacture enough highly enriched uranium for one nuclear weapon. Without the deal, it could be days away from this goal by next year.


Read more at: http://carnegieendowment.org/2013/11...good-deal/guoz
DVD Polizei is offline  
Old 09-12-15, 03:05 PM
  #419  
DVD Talk Gold Edition
 
PatD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,693
Re: USA / Iran Nuclear Megathread

So, I guess that means we should invade Iran like we did Iraq, but in this case occupy it until the end of time. And if anyone in the ME gives us any stick, we conquer the entire region--just to be safe. And if terrorist cells appear in other parts of the world, well, we just invade those areas too (in case they develop suitcase nukes). And we'll funnel trillions more into the war machine and get mad that our is in the red that we'll have to keep invading in order to help our economy. And we'll keep invading and occupying. And, of course, there will be no paranoia from other powers that will drive them to get nukes of their own in order to be left alone by the U.S. And we'll just keep up like this...

I can't see anything unsustainable about this scenario.

Last edited by PatD; 09-13-15 at 11:33 AM.
PatD is offline  
Old 09-12-15, 09:58 PM
  #420  
Needs to check his email
 
mspmms's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Indianapolis,IN
Posts: 13,148
Re: USA / Iran Nuclear Megathread

Originally Posted by PatD View Post
I can't see anything unsustainable about this scenario.
Maybe I could feel differently if the Iranian Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei would stop calling for “Death to America” or that "'Israel will be destroyed within 25 years'".
mspmms is offline  
Old 09-12-15, 11:05 PM
  #421  
DVD Talk Platinum Edition
 
Ghostbuster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 3,737
Re: USA / Iran Nuclear Megathread

Words don't constitute an actual or imminent threat. Iraq wasn't a threat to the US either, but the war mongers were able to trick everyone.

Bush said it best -- well, he said it anyway:

Ghostbuster is offline  
Old 09-13-15, 08:08 AM
  #422  
DVD Talk Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Lower Gum Curve
Posts: 18,941
Re: USA / Iran Nuclear Megathread

Hmm, apparently overwrought hyperbole and pants-shitting fear tactics don't work as expected. Who knew?

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_a..._partisan.html

Obama’s Secret Weapon: The GOP helped convince Democrats to support the president’s Iran deal.


When the administration announced the deal in mid-July, it was an open question whether Democrats would sign on. First, there was public opinion. No, Americans might not want another war, but that’s not the same as supporting an agreement with Iran, especially one that lifts sanctions. What’s more, Americans had concerns about Israel—would this open an important ally to danger from an economically emboldened Iran? Sensitive to both concerns, many elected Democrats were wary of the deal, and some—like New York Sen. Chuck Schumer—eventually came out against it.

Again and again, the GOP’s great obstacle—and Democrats’ great ally—is itself.

Republicans could have capitalized on the division, running against the deal while offering an alternative and showing—in word and deed—that this was about the policy, not the president. Schumer is a Democrat, but his final statement on the deal is instructive as a model for how to thread this needle. “Advocates on both sides have strong cases for their point of view that cannot simply be dismissed. … I have decided I must oppose the agreement and will vote yes on a motion of disapproval,” he said. “While we have come to different conclusions, I give tremendous credit to President Obama for his work on this issue.”

No, it’s not red meat. But this kind of considered opposition could have peeled away enough Democrats from the administration to win the legislative battle and jeopardize the deal. Instead, Republicans jumped to hyperbole.

When the deal was still just a negotiation, Republican senators led by Tom Cotton of Arkansas sent an “open letter” to Iran’s leaders urging them to dismiss talks. Shortly afterward, Republican leaders joined with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to slam the negotiation as a deadly threat to Israel. In the following months, Republicans would say the deal was “akin to declaring war on Israel”; that Obama was “march[ing]” Israelis to the “door of the oven”; and that the president was siding with “the oppressors.” The apex of this criticism came Tuesday, when former Vice President Cheney slammed the agreement in the fiercest words possible. “I know of no nation in history that has agreed to guarantee that the means of its own destruction will be in the hands of another nation, particularly one that is hostile,” he said.
Jason is offline  
Old 09-13-15, 08:24 AM
  #423  
DVD Talk Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 11,747
Re: USA / Iran Nuclear Megathread

Originally Posted by Slate
When the administration announced the deal in mid-July, it was an open question whether Democrats would sign on.
Stopped reading here.
dork is offline  
Old 09-13-15, 09:48 AM
  #424  
Needs to check his email
 
mspmms's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Indianapolis,IN
Posts: 13,148
Re: USA / Iran Nuclear Megathread

Originally Posted by Ghostbuster View Post
Words don't constitute an actual or imminent threat.
Uranium is not used for energy, it has two uses: to use in a breeder reactor to start producing Plutonium or to make a “Little Boy” type Fission Bomb.

mspmms is offline  
Old 09-13-15, 10:00 AM
  #425  
Needs to check his email
 
mspmms's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Indianapolis,IN
Posts: 13,148
Re: USA / Iran Nuclear Megathread

Originally Posted by Jason View Post
Obama’s Secret Weapon: The GOP helped convince Democrats to support the president’s Iran deal.
Who is going to convince the American people?

Americans skeptical Iran will stick to nuclear deal

"Few believe Iran will abide by its terms, and a growing number consider the country a serious threat to the U.S."

Key Democrats skeptical of Iran deal

“They are getting a lot of pressure from constituents who are suspicious of any agreement”
mspmms is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.