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Guns and politics

Old 01-13-11, 01:56 AM
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Guns and politics

I know the other thread went off the rails about Sarah Palin and political rhetoric. Is it okay to discuss gun control and the politics relating to it here? I tried looking for the proper thread to post this under but couldn't find it.

Anyway, I started listening to talk radio tonight, first time in awhile, and some political commentator was saying how gun violence and the Arizona shooting was the result of "crazy bastards," "crazy sons of bitches," and "neo-nazi's" like Glenn Beck, Sean Hannity, Rush Limbaugh, and Sarah Palin (the "crazy/insane woman").

He also went after Ed Schultz who he said was not a real liberal for defending guns with 30 round clips, but didn't say why Schultz defended it. He then went on to say that the manufacturers of the Glock-19 were either happy, or smile after something like this happens because it means increased business.

It was like listening to a liberal version of Michael Savage. He also went on to blame the Virgina Tech shooting, the Fort Hood shooting and this recent one, on the NRA, "crazy bastards," like Rush, and lack of stricter gun control laws.

Anyway, do you think that pro-gun rights advocate politicians tone down some of their language? Do you think that the ease of purchasing a gun is to blame? Doesn't the UK have a gun ban? Are they much safer?
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Old 01-13-11, 08:18 AM
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Re: Guns and politics

Originally Posted by brayzie View Post
Doesn't the UK have a gun ban? Are they much safer?
Yes and yes (assuming that when you say "safer" you mean "fewer murders per capita"; I won't get into whether that is the best or most appropriate measure of safety, but it's the easiest way to quantify it).

I think that the relative availability of guns probably contributes to what goes on in the U.S., but probably not very much. I think the biggest contributor to violence in the U.S. is that we are a country built on more than 500 years of a combination of "I want to get my piece" and "Fuck you -- you can't tell me what to do!" That's why the original settlers came here, that's why we rebelled from England, that's why people went out to the frontier, that's why people have immigrated here for hundreds of years. There are lots of admirable things about both of those attitudes, but they are not always conducive to playing well with others.
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Old 01-13-11, 08:20 AM
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Re: Guns and politics

And on a completely unrelated note:

Report: Company sells rifle part inscribed 'you lie'

Updated at 8:45 p.m. ET

CNN reports that Rep. Joe Wilson has been told by a South Carolina gun company that it is discontinuing the sale of a rifle part engraved with the words "you lie."

Wilson, R-S.C., attracted national attention for screaming out "you lie" during a speech by President Obama in 2009.

CNN quotes a letter from Wilson, forwarded to the network by the congressman's staff, thanking Palmetto State Armory for discontinuing sales of the rifle part.

"I thank you for quickly suspending sales of the product that uses my words," Wilson wrote.

Our original post begins here:

A South Carolina gun company is reportedly selling a rifle component inscribed with the words "you lie" in tribute to Rep. Joe Wilson's outburst at President Obama.

The Palmetto State Armory is selling a commemorative part for an AR-15 in honor of Wilson, who shouted "you lie" as Obama addressed Congress about health care.

The news was reported by The Free Times, an alternative news weekly in Columbia, S.C.

The news weekly says a web page for the rifle component is no longer on the gun company's website.

The gun product has not been endorsed by Wilson, who was formally admonished by the House for yelling "you lie" during Obama's 2009 address to a joint session of Congress.

The rifle component, known as a lower receiver, is being sold as the nation is trying to absorb the shock of an Arizona shooting rampage that left six people dead and Rep. Gabrielle Giffords, D-Ariz., fighting for her life.

Company president Jamin McCallum expressed sorrow for the Arizona shooting victims in an e-mail to The Free Times on Tuesday. "The only reaction I have to the Arizona shooting is sorrow for the victims and their families and a disbelief that a human being could carry out an act like this," McCallum wrote. "...The loss of life is a tragic event and we should do our best to support those who are grieving."
http://content.usatoday.com/communit...le-component/1

We sure do fetishize weapons sometimes.
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Old 01-13-11, 08:47 AM
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Re: Guns and politics

I wish the editor of Time Magazine would stop saying that the weapon used by the crazy in Tuscon was an automatic weapon. A Glock 9mm isn't an automatic weapon. You have to pull the trigger each time you fire.
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Old 01-13-11, 09:27 AM
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Re: Guns and politics

[QUOTE=brayzie;10587620]
He also went after Ed Schultz who he said was not a real liberal for defending guns with 30 round clips, but didn't say why Schultz defended it. He should have given Sgt. Schutz a pass since Ed feels that he needs bigger clips to protect himself against "the Forces of Evil, Conservatives" (to quote Ed's kinder, gentler liberal rhetoric).

Rolling Stone muckraker & talk show gloryhound Matt Tabbi would say that Ed needs a bigger clip because of his girth since Tabbi is obsessed with describing his opponents' physical appearance, especially any traits he considers a 'negative'...as in "Rush Limbaugh is a fat, pill-popping idiot", etc. I have read nearly all of Tabbi's RS political pieces over the past 2-3 years, and he never fails to point out any unattractive physical characteristics of conservatives (although, curiously, he neglects to do this for liberals.

It's an oft-cited point, but don't many of those places with the most stringent gun laws (D.C. is the usual whipping boy, if that term is still allowed to be used now that "violent" imagery is off limits) also have some of the highest homicide rates? Is that a valid point, or is it a chicken-and-egg, which-came-first type of argument?
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Old 01-13-11, 09:28 AM
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Re: Guns and politics

Originally Posted by classicman2 View Post
I wish the editor of Time Magazine would stop saying that the weapon used by the crazy in Tuscon was an automatic weapon. A Glock 9mm isn't an automatic weapon. You have to pull the trigger each time you fire.
Which is good, because you burn more calories that way.
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Old 01-13-11, 09:30 AM
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Re: Guns and politics

Originally Posted by classicman2 View Post
I wish the editor of Time Magazine would stop saying that the weapon used by the crazy in Tuscon was an automatic weapon. A Glock 9mm isn't an automatic weapon. You have to pull the trigger each time you fire.
Well self loading or semi-automatic doesn't sound scary enough.
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Old 01-13-11, 09:32 AM
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Re: Guns and politics

Originally Posted by classicman2 View Post
I wish the editor of Time Magazine would stop saying that the weapon used by the crazy in Tuscon was an automatic weapon.
Link?
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Old 01-13-11, 09:36 AM
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Re: Guns and politics

What? We can talk about Gun control but not Guns???? IB you liberal bastards!!!
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Old 01-13-11, 09:37 AM
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Re: Guns and politics

Don't need no steeeenking link.
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Old 01-13-11, 09:37 AM
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Re: Guns and politics

Originally Posted by creekdipper View Post

Rolling Stone muckraker & talk show gloryhound Matt Tabbi would say that Ed needs a bigger clip because of his girth since Tabbi is obsessed with describing his opponents' physical appearance, especially any traits he considers a 'negative'...as in "Rush Limbaugh is a fat, pill-popping idiot", etc. I have read nearly all of Tabbi's RS political pieces over the past 2-3 years, and he never fails to point out any unattractive physical characteristics of conservatives (although, curiously, he neglects to do this for liberals.
The guy I was listening to also was criticizing appearance. Some Republican had gone on ABC and said that Democrats want to take away our guns and the radio host went on to call him fat or obese.

I would think that if people want to tone down the harsh political rhetoric, maybe it would be good to also stop calling people you disagree with "sons of bitches," and "neo-nazis." This guy kept it up. I was surprised you could say bitches and bastards so much on the radio.
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Old 01-13-11, 09:44 AM
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Re: Guns and politics

What are the current laws on gun purchases? Is there a background check done, or a waiting period?

@JasonF
That's interesting about the UK. Don't they also have video surveillance in populated areas?

@Creekdipper
Couldn't the argument be made that Washington DC might have stricter gun control laws but that the criminals simply have easier access to guns from out of the state and bring them in? Meaning, if every state had the same strict gun laws, would then gun-related crime go down?

Then again, a good example pro-gun advocates could use is the recent example of that Mexican land owner who defended himself against the cartels. I don't think he was using any semi-automatic weapons, but I don't know for sure. However, it's an example of why you would need to own a gun, and why a semi-automatic weapon might make the difference.
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Old 01-13-11, 09:52 AM
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Re: Guns and politics

Originally Posted by Groucho View Post
Link?
MSNBC - approximately 0730, 1/13/10
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Old 01-13-11, 11:39 AM
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Re: Guns and politics

There is less gun crime in countries with less guns, yet there are more cases of violence--thugs breaking into occupied houses with no fear, sexual assaults, and muggings. Yes, more than in the USA.



http://www.ncjrs.gov/app/abstractdb/...aspx?id=187198
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Old 01-13-11, 11:41 AM
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Re: Guns and politics

Originally Posted by brayzie View Post
Doesn't the UK have a gun ban? Are they much safer?
Both are true. The tricky part is trying to decide if one has a big relation to the other. It sounds like common sense to say that because they have a gun ban and fewer murders that the reason is the gun ban. But we often forget about just how many cameras the UK uses to watch its citizens. That doesn't get discussed nearly as much as guns. But they have about 1 surveillence camera per 14 people. ( http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6108496.stm )

I'm not saying that is what is keeping the murders down either, but pointing out that there can be many factors. The amount of surveillence allowed in the UK by the government would be fought by many civil liberty groups here (and rightfully so, imo), despite the fact that they likely decrease many crimes.

You gotta' find your balance between safety and freedom.
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Old 01-13-11, 11:53 AM
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Re: Guns and politics

UK crime rates are sky high. Captains/Chiefs of police departments over there have repeatedly gone public about how hiding crime statistics is a priority for the government. They change reporting procedures and police forms to basically lie about the crime rate percentages. The UK newspapers and press have done many reports about this. There have been multiple studies that attest to the UK having a higher crime rate than the US, and a higher crime rate than most industrialized nations on earth. In 2000 the UN said the UK had the highest crime rates of any industrialized nation.

When the UK banned private firearm ownership the crime rates, including firearm-related crimes, skyrocketed over 300% in the first year and did not decline from that amazing high point for years. The rates of crimes using firearms climbed 35-40% a year for years after the ban. In spite of the outright lying on crime statistics by the UK government and police agencies, studies by universities and the press in the UK have shown that firearm-related crimes are more than double in the UK since the 'gun ban' went into affect.

As to the murder rate, the murder rate in the UK was lower before the firearms ban, to give credit to the ban for that statistic is simply incorrect. In the now ~15 years since the ban the murder rate in the UK has slowly climbed, not diminished. The rates of rape, stabbings, muggings, beatings, etc are all considerably higher after the ban. As they are in Australia, and many other nations that implement firearms bans.

There is a ton of data on this. An overwhelming amount of data from within the UK itself, and from other sources like the UN, the US DOJ, etc.

So to say the 'UK is safer' is simply revealing you don't know what you're talking about. But enough 'official' bullshit is put out by the propaganda machine in the UK to keep the ideologues thinking how safe they are after the ban.

Of course, here in the US we have changed our crime reporting procedures to make the millions of times a year firearms are used to prevent and end a crime in progress invisible too. The press never covers it, millions of times a year and not a single major or minor story about it in print, radio, or TV. So the majority of people in the US think it doesn't happen, yet a crime committed with a firearm gets days of 24/7 coverage. That tactic works. People, including highly educated people, are not able to see through such obvious tactics. It's amazing how propaganda can affect the masses so easily.
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Old 01-13-11, 12:20 PM
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Re: Guns and politics

You need to enact crazy talk show hosts/shit throwing pundits laws.
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Old 01-13-11, 12:20 PM
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Re: Guns and politics

we need murder control not weapon control

more seriously, if a perp is willing to commit murder do you really think they're going to be worried about a few extra years tacked on due to a weapons charge?
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Old 01-13-11, 12:26 PM
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Re: Guns and politics

Originally Posted by Dr Mabuse View Post
It's amazing how propaganda can affect the masses so easily.
But is it, really?
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Old 01-13-11, 12:53 PM
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Re: Guns and politics

Originally Posted by Dr Mabuse View Post
Of course, here in the US we have changed our crime reporting procedures to make the millions of times a year firearms are used to prevent and end a crime in progress invisible too. The press never covers it, millions of times a year and not a single major or minor story about it in print, radio, or TV.
What happens to all the witnesses to this large scale crime prevention. Are they being abducted by men in black before they can post cell phone videos of these gun toting heroes on YouTube? Sorry but you sound like a conspiracy theorist.
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Old 01-13-11, 12:55 PM
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Re: Guns and politics

Originally Posted by eXcentris View Post
What happens to all the witnesses to this large scale crime prevention. Are they being abducted by men in black before they can post cell phone videos of these gun toting heroes on YouTube? Sorry but you sound like a conspiracy theorist.
No need to apologize. I understand why, and have already stated why you would see it that way.

Nausicaa quoted it.
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Old 01-13-11, 12:58 PM
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Re: Guns and politics

Originally Posted by Save Ferris View Post
There is less gun crime in countries with less guns, yet there are more cases of violence--thugs breaking into occupied houses with no fear, sexual assaults, and muggings. Yes, more than in the USA.



http://www.ncjrs.gov/app/abstractdb/...aspx?id=187198
when i was in italy i was told that if someone breaks into your house you can't hit them in the face and then they can sue you. most other parts of the body were OK
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Old 01-13-11, 01:00 PM
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Re: Guns and politics

Originally Posted by Dr Mabuse View Post
UK crime rates are sky high. Captains/Chiefs of police departments over there have repeatedly gone public about how hiding crime statistics is a priority for the government. They change reporting procedures and police forms to basically lie about the crime rate percentages. The UK newspapers and press have done many reports about this. There have been multiple studies that attest to the UK having a higher crime rate than the US, and a higher crime rate than most industrialized nations on earth. In 2000 the UN said the UK had the highest crime rates of any industrialized nation.

When the UK banned private firearm ownership the crime rates, including firearm-related crimes, skyrocketed over 300% in the first year and did not decline from that amazing high point for years. The rates of crimes using firearms climbed 35-40% a year for years after the ban. In spite of the outright lying on crime statistics by the UK government and police agencies, studies by universities and the press in the UK have shown that firearm-related crimes are more than double in the UK since the 'gun ban' went into affect.

As to the murder rate, the murder rate in the UK was lower before the firearms ban, to give credit to the ban for that statistic is simply incorrect. In the now ~15 years since the ban the murder rate in the UK has slowly climbed, not diminished. The rates of rape, stabbings, muggings, beatings, etc are all considerably higher after the ban. As they are in Australia, and many other nations that implement firearms bans.

There is a ton of data on this. An overwhelming amount of data from within the UK itself, and from other sources like the UN, the US DOJ, etc.

So to say the 'UK is safer' is simply revealing you don't know what you're talking about. But enough 'official' bullshit is put out by the propaganda machine in the UK to keep the ideologues thinking how safe they are after the ban.
I am not saying I don't believe you, because what you say sounds entirely plausable. But can you link to some of the stories you are talking about?
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Old 01-13-11, 01:38 PM
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Re: Guns and politics

Here's some data, there is a lot more of course, these just came up in a quick search. I usually don't waste time citing things any more as someone who accepts a concept or forms an opinion in ignorance, someone who eagerly gobbles up propaganda simply because it appeals to their existing prejudice, will not be swayed by something as nugatory as facts.

You can use google if you care to inform yourself further.







<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/VyozDbg48rQ?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/VyozDbg48rQ?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>
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Old 01-13-11, 01:51 PM
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Re: Guns and politics

I forgot at least one article on the intentional deception of the crime statistics. I've read better sources, but here's one.

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