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Obama want to GPS tag you without you knowing.

Old 10-17-10, 11:09 AM
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Obama want to GPS tag you without you knowing.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101016/...cking_warrants
SAN FRANCISCO Yasir Afifi, a 20-year-old computer salesman and community college student, took his car in for an oil change earlier this month and his mechanic spotted an odd wire hanging from the undercarriage.

The wire was attached to a strange magnetic device that puzzled Afifi and the mechanic. They freed it from the car and posted images of it online, asking for help in identifying it.

Two days later, FBI agents arrived at Afifi's Santa Clara apartment and demanded the return of their property a global positioning system tracking device now at the center of a raging legal debate over privacy rights.


One federal judge wrote that the widespread use of the device was straight out of George Orwell's novel, "1984".

"By holding that this kind of surveillance doesn't impair an individual's reasonable expectation of privacy, the panel hands the government the power to track the movements of every one of us, every day of our lives," wrote Alex Kozinski, the chief judge of the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals, in a blistering dissent in which a three-judge panel from his court ruled that search warrants weren't necessary for GPS tracking.

But other federal and state courts have come to the opposite conclusion.

Law enforcement advocates for the devices say GPS can eliminate time-consuming stakeouts and old-fashioned "tails" with unmarked police cars. The technology had a starring role in the HBO cops-and-robbers series "The Wire" and police use it to track every type of suspect from terrorist to thieves stealing copper from air conditioners.

That investigators don't need a warrant to use GPS tracking devices in California troubles privacy advocates, technophiles, criminal defense attorneys and others.

The federal appeals court based in Washington D.C. said in August that investigators must obtain a warrant for GPS in tossing out the conviction and life sentence of Antoine Jones, a nightclub owner convicted of operating a cocaine distribution ring. That court concluded that the accumulation of four-weeks worth of data collected from a GPS on Jones' Jeep amounted to a government "search" that required a search warrant.

Judge Douglas Ginsburg said watching Jones' Jeep for an entire month rather than trailing him on one trip made all the difference between surveilling a suspect on public property and a search needing court approval.

"First, unlike one's movements during a single journey, the whole of one's movements over the course of a month is not actually exposed to the public because the likelihood anyone will observe all those movements is effectively nil," Ginsburg wrote. The state high courts of New York, Washington and Oregon have ruled similarly.

The Obama administration last month asked the D.C. federal appeals court to change its ruling, calling the decision "vague and unworkable" and arguing that investigators will lose access to a tool they now use "with great frequency."


After the D.C. appeals court decision, the 9th Circuit refused to revisit its opposite ruling.

The panel had concluded that agents could have gathered the same information by following Juan Pineda-Moreno, who was convicted of marijuana distribution after a GPS device alerted agents he was leaving a suspected "grow site."

"The only information the agents obtained from the tracking devices was a log of the locations where Pineda-Moreno's car traveled, information the agents could have obtained by following the car," Judge Diarmuid O'Scannlain wrote for the three-judge panel.

Two other federal appeals court have ruled similarly.

In his dissent, Chief Judge Kozinski noted that GPS technology is far different from tailing a suspect on a public road, which requires the active participation of investigators.

"The devices create a permanent electronic record that can be compared, contrasted and coordinated to deduce all manner of private information about individuals," Kozinksi wrote.

Legal scholars predict the U.S. Supreme Court will ultimately resolve the issue since so many courts disagree.

George Washington University law professor Orin Kerr said the issue boils down to public vs. private. As long as the GPS devices are attached to vehicles on public roads, Kerr believes the U.S. Supreme Court will decide no warrant is needed. To decide otherwise, he said, would ignore a long line of previous 4th Amendment decisions allowing for warrantless searches as long as they're conducted on public property.

"The historic line is that public surveillance is not covered by the 4th Amendment," Kerr said.

All of which makes Afifi's lawyer pessimistic that he has much of a chance to file a successful lawsuit challenging the FBI's actions. Afifi is represented by Zahra Billoo of the Council on American-Islamic Relations, the country's largest Islamic civil rights group.

Afifi declined comment after spending last week fielding myriad media inquiries after wired.com posted the story of his routine oil change and it went viral on the Internet.

Still, Billoo hopes the discovered GPS tracking device will help publicize in dramatic fashion the issue of racial profiling the lawyer says Arab-Americans routinely encounter.

She said Afifi was targeted because of his extensive ties to the Middle East, which include supporting two brothers who live in Egypt and making frequent overseas trips. His father was a well-known Islamic-American community leader who died last year in Egypt.

"Yasir hasn't done anything to warrant that kind of surveillance," Billoo said. "This was a blatant example of profiling."
What surprised me most was that it was not "the administration" or Holder, etc., but that it was Obama directly saying that. Sounds like it is something that has been around a long time, but Obama seems to want to keep it around. That's got to make liberals feel warm and cozy.
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Old 10-17-10, 11:25 AM
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Re: Obama want to GPS tag you without you knowing.

Man, Obama wants a lot of shady things. These thread titles make me laugh.
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Old 10-17-10, 11:57 AM
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Re: Obama want to GPS tag you without you knowing.

Originally Posted by kvrdave View Post
What surprised me most was that it was not "the administration" or Holder, etc., but that it was Obama directly saying that.
Must be missing part of the article because I don't see a direct quote from Obama in there.
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Old 10-17-10, 12:51 PM
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Re: Obama want to GPS tag you without you knowing.

I agree that there should be a warrant requirement for this, but I don't think it has anything to do with the amount of time spent on the surveillance or the amount of "shoe leather" law enforcement spent. I think the distinguishing factor here is that law enforcement affirmatively monkeyed with the suspect's property.

But I'm OK with law enforcement tracking suspects through GPS as long as there's a warrant requirement.
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Old 10-17-10, 12:53 PM
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Re: Obama want to GPS tag you without you knowing.

"Losers weepers, finders keepers." If I find one on my car, Obama isn't getting his GPS back. I'm keeping it for evidence.

As I have two GPS units, I want to be able to tag myself, without Obama knowing.
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Old 10-17-10, 03:15 PM
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Re: Obama want to GPS tag you without you knowing.

One of the tech podcasts I listen to covered this last week. They said his father was a known supporter of terrorism and that was likely why he was a person of interest. Minimal googling failed to find any confirmation of that fact.
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Old 10-17-10, 07:04 PM
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Re: Obama want to GPS tag you without you knowing.

Originally Posted by Groucho View Post
Must be missing part of the article because I don't see a direct quote from Obama in there.
Silly Groucho. Who needs quotes with proof when all you really need is to read the title of the thread. If it wasn't true, then why would it be in the title?
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Old 10-17-10, 07:15 PM
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Re: Obama want to GPS tag you without you knowing.

Originally Posted by wmansir View Post
One of the tech podcasts I listen to covered this last week. They said his father was a known supporter of terrorism and that was likely why he was a person of interest. Minimal googling failed to find any confirmation of that fact.
Did you google for known terrorist supporters?
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Old 10-17-10, 08:09 PM
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Re: Obama want to GPS tag you without you knowing.

Read this on Friday I think. The Feds are able to put a GPS unit on your car without a warrant, even if it's in a private driveway.
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Old 10-17-10, 09:37 PM
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Re: Obama want to GPS tag you without you knowing.

Generally, it has been held that there is no reasonable expectation of privacy in the GPS tracking of one's public movements hence why no warrant is required. The issue thus becomes to what extent does tracking become invasive to require a warrant. A day? A month? As the article indicates, the circuits appear to have drawn differing distinctions. So it seems like this may go to the Supreme Court at some point.

I suppose a parallel can be drawn to telephone communcations: although you have a reasonable expectation of privacy in your conversations to require a warrant, you do not have an expectation of privacy in the numbers you dial. Hence why pen register use does not require a warrant. I suppose we may reach a similar type of compromise with respect to GPS tracking.
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Old 10-17-10, 09:44 PM
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Re: Obama want to GPS tag you without you knowing.

Do the feds need a warrant to follow you in their car? Why is this any different?
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Old 10-17-10, 09:45 PM
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Re: Obama want to GPS tag you without you knowing.

The feds could have saved a lot of face if they just skipped the GPS tracker and followed the guy on 4square/twitter!
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Old 10-17-10, 10:23 PM
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Re: Obama want to GPS tag you without you knowing.

Yasir Afifi

That's all you really needed to bold. Guilty!
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Old 10-17-10, 11:20 PM
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Re: Obama want to GPS tag you without you knowing.

How odd. I swore I read that in there, but rereading it shows nothing. I apologize.
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Old 10-17-10, 11:29 PM
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Re: Obama want to GPS tag you without you knowing.

Originally Posted by John Slider View Post
Do the feds need a warrant to follow you in their car? Why is this any different?
If I, as a private citizen, put a GPS on your car am I guilty of anything? I don't know, honestly. Otherwise, I'd say the difference is that they are attaching something to my personal property. My car, not theirs. If they want to follow me, they aren't altering, afixing, or in any way coming into contact with my property. Seems like something the government should not be able to do without a warrant.
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Old 10-17-10, 11:32 PM
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Re: Obama want to GPS tag you without you knowing.

Originally Posted by kvrdave View Post
How odd. I swore I read that in there, but rereading it shows nothing. I apologize.
I think you're conditioned so that when you see "the Obama" you just see red and stop reading.

That said, I'm completely opposed to the government tracking us without our consent.
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Old 10-17-10, 11:39 PM
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Re: Obama want to GPS tag you without you knowing.

Probably true. I use the phrase too often.
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Old 10-18-10, 09:18 AM
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Re: Obama want to GPS tag you without you knowing.

Originally Posted by starman9000 View Post
when you see "the Obama" you just see red
I did find it interesting that quotes of The Obama were red in his book.
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Old 10-18-10, 09:42 AM
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Re: Obama want to GPS tag you without you knowing.

Originally Posted by Thor Simpson View Post
I did find it interesting that quotes of The Obama were red in his book.



Though you'd be more likely to find that in JasonF's book.
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Old 10-18-10, 09:47 AM
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Re: Obama want to GPS tag you without you knowing.

Originally Posted by Thor Simpson View Post
I did find it interesting that quotes of The Obama were red in his book.
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Old 10-18-10, 10:16 AM
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Re: Obama want to GPS tag you without you knowing.

Most interesting are the directions taken by Judges Ginsburg and Kozinski on the issue - these are the kinds of judges most opposed by liberals.
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Old 10-18-10, 11:24 AM
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Re: Obama want to GPS tag you without you knowing.

Originally Posted by Thor Simpson View Post
Did you google for known terrorist supporters?
You can... sorta. Both the federal watch list and the Office of Foreign Assets Control lists are public record.

http://www.treas.gov/offices/enforcement/ofac/

I have access to case reports of federal records, but I don;t think they are public record online. But you can view local cases if you know where your local federal court building is...
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Old 11-23-10, 09:35 AM
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Re: Obama want to GPS tag you without you knowing.

Petition for cert has been filed with the SCt in the Pineda-Moreno case. Hopefully, the Court grants a review.
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Old 03-04-11, 05:54 PM
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Re: Obama want to GPS tag you without you knowing.

Afifi is suing the FBI for civil rights violations:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110303/...warrants/print
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Old 03-04-11, 06:02 PM
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Re: Obama want to GPS tag you without you knowing.

Suing the FBI? Shouldn't he be suing Obama?
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