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Apparently Muslims are taking over Dearborn, Michigan

Old 10-08-10, 04:20 PM
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Re: Apparently Muslims are taking over Dearborn, Michigan

Originally Posted by Ky-Fi View Post
Nope. Communism certainly wasn't a monolithic entity either.
You can say that, but I don't buy it judging from all that you've written on the subject.
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Old 10-08-10, 04:37 PM
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Re: Apparently Muslims are taking over Dearborn, Michigan

Originally Posted by Red Dog View Post
You can say that, but I don't buy it judging from all that you've written on the subject.

Like posting more links to reformist Muslim sites than anybody else in these discussions?

The question isn't whether Islam is monolithic---beyond doubt, it is certainly not. But I'm arguing that "monolithic" and "peaceful religion with a tiny minority of extremists" aren't the only two choices.
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Old 10-08-10, 04:53 PM
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Re: Apparently Muslims are taking over Dearborn, Michigan

Posting links is no indication of anything. Plus you post so many links that people probably never bother clicking on any of them. I sure as hell don't. I judge you by what you write and the articles you post on the board (and how you emphasize certain sections).

The only choice to me is that there are all sorts of Muslims (just like there are all sorts of people in any religion). And for the ones here in the United States - the ones that could potentially effect my life, the overwhelming majority are peaceful.
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Old 10-08-10, 05:02 PM
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Re: Apparently Muslims are taking over Dearborn, Michigan

Originally Posted by Red Dog View Post
Posting links is no indication of anything. Plus you post so many links that people probably never bother clicking on any of them.
Now that I believe.


Originally Posted by Red Dog View Post
The only choice to me is that there are all sorts of Muslims (just like there are all sorts of people in any religion). And for the ones here in the United States - the ones that could potentially effect my life, the overwhelming majority are peaceful.
The vast, overwhelming majority of Muslims EVERYWHERE are non-violent. That's indisputable. Islam itself doesn't have violence as a goal.

I understand that you guys wish I was saying that Islam is monolithic, that most Muslims are terrorists, that we should deport all Muslims and deny them civil liberties, and that we should go to war with the Muslim world. The fact that I argue exactly the opposite, ad infinitum, doesn't seem to register. I guess it's easier to argue with that version of Ky-Fi rather than the one who actually types things that you could quote and challenge.
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Old 10-08-10, 05:06 PM
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Re: Apparently Muslims are taking over Dearborn, Michigan

Ky-Fi is proof that chat bots have gotten significantly more sophisticated than the ones I used to IM for fun back in school.
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Old 10-08-10, 05:13 PM
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Re: Apparently Muslims are taking over Dearborn, Michigan

Originally Posted by Ky-Fi View Post
The question isn't whether Islam is monolithic---beyond doubt, it is certainly not. But I'm arguing that "monolithic" and "peaceful religion with a tiny minority of extremists" aren't the only two choices.
I really don't know why you bother.

There are people who will choose to look at the apostate Muslims (those who practice the "peaceful" version of Islam) as being more representative of the Islamic faith and will turn around and point to extremist wackos claiming to be Christians as more representative of the Christian faith.

I've learned not to care.
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Old 10-08-10, 05:24 PM
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Re: Apparently Muslims are taking over Dearborn, Michigan

As an atheist I find the "all religions are equally bad/good" argument to be ignorant or purposely deceitful.
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Old 10-08-10, 05:24 PM
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Re: Apparently Muslims are taking over Dearborn, Michigan

Originally Posted by sracer View Post
I really don't know why you bother.
I'm obssessed because I find the whole dynamic unbelievably fascinating. Islam is something right out of central casting for liberals to oppose: by any standard it's the most powerful force in the world today promoting religious violence, anti-semitism, misogony, hatred of and violence against gays, violent repression and intimidation of artists, academics, etc. These things are supposedly the core causes of liberalism, yet so many on the left instinctively feel the need to remain silent, defend or at least deflect criticism leveled against Islam. And it's every country in the West where this is happening. I think these are incredibly interesting times to live in, and I think this is going to be the story of the century---and it's very curious to see what sides people are taking.
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Old 10-08-10, 05:29 PM
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Re: Apparently Muslims are taking over Dearborn, Michigan

Originally Posted by DeputyDave View Post
As an atheist I find the "all religions are equally bad/good" argument to be ignorant or purposely deceitful.
And that's what I would expect most objective atheists to conclude---Hitchens and Dawkins agree with you. I am encouraged that this view is gaining ground:

Buddhists, Dawkins and Gays worried by Islam in Europe

http://seanrobsville.blogspot.com/20...orried-by.html
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Old 10-08-10, 05:34 PM
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Re: Apparently Muslims are taking over Dearborn, Michigan

Originally Posted by Ky-Fi View Post
I'm obssessed because I find the whole dynamic unbelievably fascinating. Islam is something right out of central casting for liberals to oppose: by any standard it's the most powerful force in the world today promoting religious violence, anti-semitism, misogony, hatred of and violence against gays, violent repression and intimidation of artists, academics, etc. These things are supposedly the core causes of liberalism, yet so many on the left instinctively feel the need to remain silent, defend or at least deflect criticism leveled against Islam. And it's every country in the West where this is happening. I think these are incredibly interesting times to live in, and I think this is going to be the story of the century---and it's very curious to see what sides people are taking.
It baffles me as well. It seems like the best answer you'll get is that Islam doesn't really affect them here and Christianity does.

I wonder how many of those "millions of peace loving Muslims" living in America today would support having our laws more closely follow the Koran if possible.
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Old 10-08-10, 05:46 PM
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Re: Apparently Muslims are taking over Dearborn, Michigan

Originally Posted by Ky-Fi View Post
I understand that you guys wish I was saying that Islam is monolithic, that most Muslims are terrorists, that we should deport all Muslims and deny them civil liberties, and that we should go to war with the Muslim world. The fact that I argue exactly the opposite, ad infinitum, doesn't seem to register. I guess it's easier to argue with that version of Ky-Fi rather than the one who actually types things that you could quote and challenge.
I don't have to wish anything. When you constantly shout sharia this and sharia that for the most innocuous acts and assail the free exercise of religion only when it's Islam, it speaks for itself.

And I've certainly quoted and challenged you countless times.
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Old 10-08-10, 05:52 PM
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Re: Apparently Muslims are taking over Dearborn, Michigan

Originally Posted by DeputyDave View Post
It baffles me as well. It seems like the best answer you'll get is that Islam doesn't really affect them here and Christianity does.

I wonder how many of those "millions of peace loving Muslims" living in America today would support having our laws more closely follow the Koran if possible.
My opinion is that given a choice, they'd support what we have now. Perhaps they might take a conservative stance toward certain social issues (such as abortion) like most conservatives do.

As you being baffled, that's exactly what I explained in the other thread. But I don't bash Christianity. I bash when religious policy violates the 1st amendment, and usually that religious policy is going to be, by happenstance here, Christianity.


I'm obssessed because I find the whole dynamic unbelievably fascinating. Islam is something right out of central casting for liberals to oppose: by any standard it's the most powerful force in the world today promoting religious violence, anti-semitism, misogony, hatred of and violence against gays, violent repression and intimidation of artists, academics, etc. These things are supposedly the core causes of liberalism, yet so many on the left instinctively feel the need to remain silent, defend or at least deflect criticism leveled against Islam. And it's every country in the West where this is happening. I think these are incredibly interesting times to live in, and I think this is going to be the story of the century---and it's very curious to see what sides people are taking.
Here we go again - how many posts has it been? Like clockwork.

You know I could pick any number of subjects to criticize liberals on and keep yapping on and on about it every 3rd post. I don't. At least not often.

"The story of the century." Once again, your exaggeration never ceases to amaze.

Last edited by Red Dog; 10-08-10 at 05:59 PM.
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Old 10-08-10, 06:58 PM
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Re: Apparently Muslims are taking over Dearborn, Michigan

Originally Posted by Ky-Fi View Post
Islam is something right out of central casting for liberals to oppose: by any standard it's the most powerful force in the world today promoting religious violence, anti-semitism, misogony, hatred of and violence against gays, violent repression and intimidation of artists, academics, etc. These things are supposedly the core causes of liberalism, yet so many on the left instinctively feel the need to remain silent, defend or at least deflect criticism leveled against Islam.
Before that morning in September in 2001, most, if not all, of the criticisms that I read about Islam and human rights abuses came from "the left," from feminist groups and places like AI. I first heard about the Taliban in the late 1990s from reading feminist literature.

And, growing up in the 80s, the only things about Islamic culture that I heard from "the right"* was a sort of awed admiration how they would deal with criminals. ("In the Middle East, if you steal, they cut your hand off! We could use some of that over here!")

*Of course, this came from a bunch of redneck dipshits who lived in my town... but it was really all that anyone really heard about Islamic culture at the time.
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Old 10-08-10, 07:31 PM
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Re: Apparently Muslims are taking over Dearborn, Michigan

Originally Posted by Josh-da-man View Post
Before that morning in September in 2001, most, if not all, of the criticisms that I read about Islam and human rights abuses came from "the left," from feminist groups and places like AI. I first heard about the Taliban in the late 1990s from reading feminist literature.

And, growing up in the 80s, the only things about Islamic culture that I heard from "the right"* was a sort of awed admiration how they would deal with criminals. ("In the Middle East, if you steal, they cut your hand off! We could use some of that over here!")
Exactly, and this is part of what I'm talking about--how things have flipped around so radically.
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Old 10-08-10, 10:59 PM
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Re: Apparently Muslims are taking over Dearborn, Michigan

Originally Posted by Ky-Fi View Post
And almost like a laboratory experiment, the closer you get to the Sunni and Shia heartlands, Saudi Arabia and Iran, the more extreme it gets. That's the way they want to live, fine.
You say things like this and then expect us to believe that you don't see Islam as monolithic. Does anyone believe that Iranians are happy with their government?

They shouldn't be capable of threatening the West economically, militarily, technologically or culturally---and they wouldn't be, if not for liberals in the West forcing us to pretend Islam is just like every other religion, and that only hateful Islamophobes could possibly conclude Islam has a different value system than the liberal West, and could negatively impact Western human rights and civil liberties.
As long as governments in the Middle East control a shitload of oil, they can threaten us economically. How are liberals to blame for that?
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Old 10-09-10, 08:24 AM
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Re: Apparently Muslims are taking over Dearborn, Michigan

Originally Posted by Sean O'Hara View Post
You say things like this and then expect us to believe that you don't see Islam as monolithic. Does anyone believe that Iranians are happy with their government?
Do you believe Communism and Fascism were both monolithic ideologies?

I'm sure there are a lot of Iranians who don't want to live in a theocracy. Saddam Hussein didn't set up a theocracy. Attaturk didn't want a theocracy. But the advocacy of various forms of secularism doesn't mean that there is a liberal Islam. And I would argue that the speculation that the Iranians don't want to live in a repressive theocracy is less compelling than the reality that Iranians have established and do live in a repressive theocracy.


Originally Posted by Sean O'Hara View Post
As long as governments in the Middle East control a shitload of oil, they can threaten us economically. How are liberals to blame for that?
No doubt about it, oil dependency is a huge part of the equation, and blame can definitely be placed all across the political spectrum.
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Old 10-09-10, 09:31 AM
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Re: Apparently Muslims are taking over Dearborn, Michigan

Lumping Hussein and Ataturk together...apparently you miss nuance. Not to mention huge fucking differences.

So you don't think the secular democracy in Turkey is any different than the repressive theocracy of Iran? Which was no different from the totalitarian state in Iraq?

I again recommend you read Timur Kuran's Private Truths, Public Lies if you continue to want to make arguments concerning how individuals and parties can stay in power without the honest support of the people. It is call preference falsification. Just because you want to claim that the world is simple, doesn't mean others fail to recognize the subtlety.
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Old 10-09-10, 10:00 AM
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Re: Apparently Muslims are taking over Dearborn, Michigan

Originally Posted by Decadance View Post
Lumping Hussein and Ataturk together...apparently you miss nuance. Not to mention huge fucking differences.

So you don't think the secular democracy in Turkey is any different than the repressive theocracy of Iran? Which was no different from the totalitarian state in Iraq?

I again recommend you read Timur Kuran's Private Truths, Public Lies if you continue to want to make arguments concerning how individuals and parties can stay in power without the honest support of the people. It is call preference falsification. Just because you want to claim that the world is simple, doesn't mean others fail to recognize the subtlety.
OF COURSE Attaturk and Hussein are different, and both are different from the Iranian theocracy. That's my WHOLE POINT---the Muslim world is NOT monolithic. However, all of these governments are sharply at odds with Western liberal democracies. I would argue that Turkey is not exactly a "secular democracy" in the same way that Western countries are---anybody in the West today who advocated Attaturk's approach towards Islam would be branded a fascist Islamophobe, and the fact that the military steps in every few years with a coup to maintain secularism is something I wouldn't really want to see happen in the US, but that's just me.

The book sounds interesting. And if what you and GW Bush say is true, that the Muslim world really doesn't want to live under repressive forms of government, and they're just itching to live like us, then I say "great!" However, let's wait for some real-life evidence of that to emerge organically from those countries, instead of trying to force it on them at gunpoint, or assuming without evidence that all Muslim immigrants to the West really don't like Islam and want to be good liberal Westerners.
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Old 10-09-10, 10:08 AM
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Re: Apparently Muslims are taking over Dearborn, Michigan

Who is claiming that all Muslim immigrants want to be good liberal Westerners? Hell, not even all Westerners want to be good liberal Westerners. And why does wanting to be a good Westerner (whether liberal, moderate, or conservative) and liking Islam have to be mutually exclusive?

As for organic evidence, too bad Iran couldn't exercise their self-determination in 1953.
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Old 10-09-10, 10:23 AM
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Re: Apparently Muslims are taking over Dearborn, Michigan

Originally Posted by Red Dog View Post
Who is claiming that all Muslim immigrants want to be good liberal Westerners? Hell, not even all Westerners want to be good liberal Westerners. And why does wanting to be a good Westerner (whether liberal, moderate, or conservative) and liking Islam have to be mutually exclusive?
I meant "liberal" in the sense of the "liberal democracies" of the West, not in the sense of left-leaning politics. Is being a good Westerner and a good Muslim mutually exclusive? That's the million dollar question, and I would say it would be reasonable to look at the 50+ Islamic countries in the world and see how close their forms of government and cultural values resemble those of the West.

Originally Posted by Red Dog View Post
As for organic evidence, too bad Iran couldn't exercise their self-determination in 1953.
Ah yes, the Noble Savage outlook. The Muslim world can't be really be looked at as intelligent, self-aware and responsible for their own actions--they're only innocent, simple children who have been abused by the evil West. The other thousands of years of Iranian culture and history don't really factor in, but the omnipotent CIA's actions in 1953 are the reason for the Iranian theocracy. Well, all I can say is that we've certainly figured out how to solve the problems of Iraq and Afghanistan---we'll just come up with a CIA plot to forever change their direction.
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Old 10-09-10, 10:31 AM
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Re: Apparently Muslims are taking over Dearborn, Michigan

Originally Posted by Ky-Fi View Post
I meant "liberal" in the sense of the "liberal democracies" of the West, not in the sense of left-leaning politics. Is being a good Westerner and a good Muslim mutually exclusive? That's the million dollar question, and I would say it would be reasonable to look at the 50+ Islamic countries in the world and see how close their forms of government and cultural values resemble those of the West.
But it's somehow unreasonable for you to look at the behavior of the vast majority of Muslims in the West.

I'm not claiming that the CIA installation of the Shah is the reason for Iranian theocracy (I'd say it's a contributing factor). I'm simply offering it as organic evidence that there has been a desire for democracy in Iran.

Last edited by Red Dog; 10-09-10 at 10:37 AM.
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Old 10-09-10, 10:37 AM
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Re: Apparently Muslims are taking over Dearborn, Michigan

Originally Posted by Red Dog View Post
But it's somehow unreasonable for you to look at the behavior of the vast majority of Muslims in the West.
As I've said a million times in this thread, the vast majority of members of EVERY political ideology are non-violent. It doesn't follow that none of these ideologies are threats to the West.

I don't think it helps anybody to pretend things like this aren't true:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...law-in-UK.html
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Old 10-09-10, 10:39 AM
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Re: Apparently Muslims are taking over Dearborn, Michigan

My opinion on polls is rather well known here. Particularly one by the Telegraph on this issue.

And just like your millions of claims, I don't claim that every Muslim is non-violent. I just don't see Islam as some great threat to the West, and particularly the United States. I'll tell you what I see as a greater threat to liberty - citizens who have your view. That scares me a whole lot more.
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Old 10-09-10, 10:42 AM
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Re: Apparently Muslims are taking over Dearborn, Michigan

Originally Posted by Rockmjd23 View Post
That's because if you bash Christianity you'll get a book deal but if you bash Islam you're a racist xenophobe
I thought you got a half hour on Fox News?
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Old 10-09-10, 11:04 AM
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Re: Apparently Muslims are taking over Dearborn, Michigan

Originally Posted by Red Dog View Post
I'll tell you what I see as a greater threat to liberty - citizens who have your view. That scares me a whole lot more.
And your view is becoming increasingly widespread in the West, hence the many hate-crime charges against critics of Islam, not the least of whom is Wilders.
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