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Apparently Muslims are taking over Dearborn, Michigan

Old 10-08-10, 02:29 PM
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Re: Apparently Muslims are taking over Dearborn, Michigan

Well, Frankford, Texas actually no longer exists. The Muslims likely washed it off the map by the power of their lawfare.
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Old 10-08-10, 02:34 PM
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Re: Apparently Muslims are taking over Dearborn, Michigan

Originally Posted by Ky-Fi View Post
Just as we understood that communism was a mortal threat to the West and adopted policies whereby we avoided a hot war with the Soviet Union, a more realistic appraisal of Islam would lead to LESS useless violence, not more.
Yes, and some of the people who understood communism to be a mortal threat advocated policies of containment, support of allies, intelligence-gathering, etc., while others hunted secret communists in the State Department and Hollywood. Only you can really know which of those two types of people you would have been back then, but I have a pretty good idea.
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Old 10-08-10, 02:37 PM
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Re: Apparently Muslims are taking over Dearborn, Michigan

Originally Posted by Ky-Fi View Post
It was fairly disturbing that the local police, out of deference to Muslim outrage, were so quick to arrest the Christian activists who were peacefully excercising their rights of free speech, but fortunately they were all aquitted:


Jury Acquits the Four Christian Evangelists Arrested For Proselytizing at the Dearborn Arab Festival

September 27, 2010

Late Friday evening, a jury of six Dearborn, Michigan residents returned a unanimous verdict of not guilty of breach of the peace charges, which were brought by the Dearborn Police Department against four Christian evangelists as they were peacefully proselytizing to Muslim youths during the Arab International Festival on June 18, 2010.

The Thomas More Law Center, a national Christian public interest law firm based in Ann Arbor, Michigan, represented the evangelists, Dr. Nabeel Qureshi, Paul Rezkalla, Negeen Mayel and David Wood, at no charge. The jury returned its verdict after an hour and half of deliberations. Nageen Mayel was found guilty of failing to obey a police officer—a charge unrelated to the actual incident, which will most likely be reversed on appeal.

Robert Muise, the Law Center’s Senior Trial Counsel, handled the five-day trial. The prosecutor placed seven witnesses on the stand including Chief of Police, Ron Haddad.

Even after the acquittals, Dearborn’s mayor, Jack O’Reilly, continued his ongoing and unprecedented personal attacks on the Christian evangelists, accusing them of being anti–Muslim bigots. O’Reilly’s continuous anti-Christian rhetoric was clearly an attempt to curry favor with Dearborn’s large Muslim population, which also explains the Police Department’s alarming mobilization to arrest the four Christians.

Wood and Dr. Qureshi are co-founders of “Act 17 Apologetics,” a ministry group that defends the Gospel of Jesus Christ. On June 18, Mayel and Rezkalla joined them in their missionary work. Dr. Qureshi and Mayel are converts from Islam to Christianity. After the verdict, the group praised the Thomas More Law Center and particularly Robert Muise, whom they described as sharing their emotional burdens and investing more time on the issue than even they did. The group claimed that without the Thomas More Law Center, they would not have been able to defend themselves from persecution by the City of Dearborn.

Richard Thompson, President and Chief Counsel of the Law Center, commented, “Rob Muise did an outstanding job advocating on behalf of Free Speech rights protected by our Constitution, despite unsubstantiated police claims that peaceful conversations with Muslims were going to incite a disturbance. The bottom line in the jury’s not guilty verdict: the Constitution, not Shariah law, still prevails in Dearborn, Michigan.”

http://www.thomasmore.org/qry/page.taf?id=19
Nice job quoting the press release of a Christian zealot organization defending the Christian zealots preaching at an Arab festival. From the local news clips the zealots were being somewhat obnoxious. While there was no evidence of sharia (I would be be HIGHLY opposed to any introduction of sharia) most folks thought the Arabs should be allowed to enjoy their festival without being obnoxiously preached at.

(If there were an atheist festival, the same should be true for them). The Christians certainly have a right to explain their religion to anyone who is actually interested. However, they chose a situation where no one was interested, and some were offended. I'm not convinced they should have beaten the rap, and I could hardly be described as a friend of Islam.
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Old 10-08-10, 02:38 PM
  #29  
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Re: Apparently Muslims are taking over Dearborn, Michigan

Originally Posted by CRM114 View Post
Because there is a small percentage of that billion Muslims who are extremist is no different than the small percentage of Christian extremists. Christians have been known to take the Word of God, as they see it, and twist in ways to invoke horrible violence on other people. Why do you continuously single out this one bullshit religion over another bullshit religion?


How brainwashed with cultural relativism do you have to be to believe that!? Let's look at "extremist" Muslim groups who PRIMARILY INDENTIFY THEMSELVES AS RELIGIOUS:

Abu Sayyaf, Philippines
Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades, Gaza Strip and West Bank
Al-Gama'a al-Islamiyya, Egypt (also known as The Islamic Group)
Al-Qaeda, worldwide
Al-Shabaab, Somalia
Ansar al-Islam, Iraq
Armed Islamic Group (GIA), Algeria
Jamaat Ansar al-Sunna, Iraq
East Turkestan Islamic Movement (ETIM), China
Egyptian Islamic Jihad, Egypt
Great Eastern Islamic Raiders' Front (IBDA-C), Turkey
Hamas, Gaza Strip and West Bank
Harkat-ul-Mujahideen al-Alami, Pakistan
Hezbollah, Lebanon
Islamic Movement of Central Asia, Central Asia
Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan, Uzbekistan
Jaish-e-Mohammed, Pakistan and Kashmir
Jemaah Islamiyah, Indonesia
Lashkar-e-Taiba, Pakistan and Kashmir
Lashkar-e-Jhangvi, Pakistan
Moro Islamic Liberation Front, Philippines
Moroccan Islamic Combatant Group, Morocco and Europe
Palestinian Islamic Jihad, Gaza Strip and West Bank
Tawhid and Jihad (Al-Qaeda in the Land between the Two Rivers), Iraq

Some of these groups are so powerful they're threatening or taking over entire COUNTRIES. You've heard of the Taliban--currently battling NATO forces to a standstill? What armed Christian group do you compare that to?

But hey, you should put your money where your mouth is---if you honestly believe that Christian extremism is equivalent to Islamic extremism, then you should be lobbying for troops to be removed from Iraq for an expeditionary force to the Vatican, whereby we can attempt to quell their extremism and violent outlook.
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Old 10-08-10, 02:41 PM
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Re: Apparently Muslims are taking over Dearborn, Michigan

Originally Posted by dork View Post
Yes, and some of the people who understood communism to be a mortal threat advocated policies of containment, support of allies, intelligence-gathering, etc., while others hunted secret communists in the State Department and Hollywood. Only you can really know which of those two types of people you would have been back then, but I have a pretty good idea.
Of course---you can't come up with any real evidence....but you just FEEL that I MUST be a violent racist intolerant hateful xenophobe at heart. I just MUST BE--how else could I have a different outlook than you?
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Old 10-08-10, 02:43 PM
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Re: Apparently Muslims are taking over Dearborn, Michigan

Originally Posted by OldDude View Post
Nice job quoting the press release of a Christian zealot organization defending the Christian zealots preaching at an Arab festival. From the local news clips the zealots were being somewhat obnoxious. While there was no evidence of sharia (I would be be HIGHLY opposed to any introduction of sharia) most folks thought the Arabs should be allowed to enjoy their festival without being obnoxiously preached at.

(If there were an atheist festival, the same should be true for them). The Christians certainly have a right to explain their religion to anyone who is actually interested. However, they chose a situation where no one was interested, and some were offended. I'm not convinced they should have beaten the rap, and I could hardly be described as a friend of Islam.

I love how they say the mayor was using personal attacks, but offer up zero actual quotes from the mayor.
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Old 10-08-10, 02:44 PM
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Re: Apparently Muslims are taking over Dearborn, Michigan

Originally Posted by Ky-Fi View Post
Of course---you can't come up with any real evidence....
Although you hardly ever talk about this topic, I was able to piece together a few scraps of information here and there.
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Old 10-08-10, 02:55 PM
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Re: Apparently Muslims are taking over Dearborn, Michigan

Originally Posted by Ky-Fi View Post


How brainwashed with cultural relativism do you have to be to believe that!? Let's look at "extremist" Muslim groups who PRIMARILY INDENTIFY THEMSELVES AS RELIGIOUS:

Abu Sayyaf, Philippines
Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades, Gaza Strip and West Bank
Al-Gama'a al-Islamiyya, Egypt (also known as The Islamic Group)
Al-Qaeda, worldwide
Al-Shabaab, Somalia
Ansar al-Islam, Iraq
Armed Islamic Group (GIA), Algeria
Jamaat Ansar al-Sunna, Iraq
East Turkestan Islamic Movement (ETIM), China
Egyptian Islamic Jihad, Egypt
Great Eastern Islamic Raiders' Front (IBDA-C), Turkey
Hamas, Gaza Strip and West Bank
Harkat-ul-Mujahideen al-Alami, Pakistan
Hezbollah, Lebanon
Islamic Movement of Central Asia, Central Asia
Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan, Uzbekistan
Jaish-e-Mohammed, Pakistan and Kashmir
Jemaah Islamiyah, Indonesia
Lashkar-e-Taiba, Pakistan and Kashmir
Lashkar-e-Jhangvi, Pakistan
Moro Islamic Liberation Front, Philippines
Moroccan Islamic Combatant Group, Morocco and Europe
Palestinian Islamic Jihad, Gaza Strip and West Bank
Tawhid and Jihad (Al-Qaeda in the Land between the Two Rivers), Iraq

Some of these groups are so powerful they're threatening or taking over entire COUNTRIES. You've heard of the Taliban--currently battling NATO forces to a standstill? What armed Christian group do you compare that to?

But hey, you should put your money where your mouth is---if you honestly believe that Christian extremism is equivalent to Islamic extremism, then you should be lobbying for troops to be removed from Iraq for an expeditionary force to the Vatican, whereby we can attempt to quell their extremism and violent outlook.
A bomb in Ireland blowing up innocent people is no different to me than a bomb in England blowing up innocent people. Both groups are extremist. Even with your laundry list of horrifying morons, those groups are predominantly based in their own countries. Unlike you, I am not scared. The Times Square bomber left the courtroom vowing that this is just the beginning? The beginning of what? Moronic idiots building primitive bombs that don't blow up?
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Old 10-08-10, 02:57 PM
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Re: Apparently Muslims are taking over Dearborn, Michigan

Originally Posted by Ky-Fi View Post
Of course---you can't come up with any real evidence....but you just FEEL that I MUST be a violent racist intolerant hateful xenophobe at heart. I just MUST BE--how else could I have a different outlook than you?
Perhaps because you lump one billion people together as extremists? There couldn't possibly be any peaceful reading of the religion. Nah.
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Old 10-08-10, 02:58 PM
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Re: Apparently Muslims are taking over Dearborn, Michigan

All right, maybe the mods can just wait for eXcentris to get his dig in on me, and then this can be moved over to the Musselmans thread, so we don't have multiple threads on this subject.
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Old 10-08-10, 03:04 PM
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Re: Apparently Muslims are taking over Dearborn, Michigan

Originally Posted by CRM114 View Post
Perhaps because you lump one billions people together as extremists? There couldn't possibly be any peaceful reading of the religion. Nah.
As always in this thread, and the ones before it, I'm the only one who ever posts any links to seriously moderate Muslim groups:

http://www.muslimcanadiancongress.org/

http://muslimsagainstsharia.blogspot.com/

http://www.irshadmanji.com/

Of course, most of the liberals don't want anything to do with these groups and people, because acknowledging them would mean acknowledging that they're a tiny, virtually powerless minority within Islam--and that would upset their warm, fuzzy, multicultural world.
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Old 10-08-10, 03:09 PM
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Re: Apparently Muslims are taking over Dearborn, Michigan

Who cares about "groups." Do you know any Muslims personally? Do you find them to be hiding something? Are they not peaceful?
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Old 10-08-10, 03:13 PM
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Re: Apparently Muslims are taking over Dearborn, Michigan

Originally Posted by CRM114 View Post
Who cares about "groups." Do you know any Muslims personally? Do you find them to be hiding something? Are they not peaceful?
Again, do you not understand the nature of large extremist movements? Do you imagine that, of the millions of supporters of Stalin in the Soviet Union, that they were all dim-witted, dishonest, violent, connivng thugs who supported secret police, torture and executions of dissidents? Don't you think that you probably could have found many millions of decent, friendly, law-abiding honest people who loved their children and just wanted to pay their bills and live their lives? That, however, doesn't really say anything about the true nature of Stalinism.
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Old 10-08-10, 03:14 PM
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Re: Apparently Muslims are taking over Dearborn, Michigan

Originally Posted by Ky-Fi View Post
As always in this thread, and the ones before it, I'm the only one who ever posts any links to seriously moderate Muslim groups:

http://www.muslimcanadiancongress.org/

http://muslimsagainstsharia.blogspot.com/

http://www.irshadmanji.com/

Of course, most of the liberals don't want anything to do with these groups and people, because acknowledging them would mean acknowledging that they're a tiny, virtually powerless minority within Islam--and that would upset their warm, fuzzy, multicultural world.

Why do you continually assume that everyone who disagrees with you is a liberal living in a warm fuzzy multicultural world?
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Old 10-08-10, 03:18 PM
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Re: Apparently Muslims are taking over Dearborn, Michigan

Originally Posted by Ky-Fi View Post
Again, do you not understand the nature of large extremist movements? Do you imagine that, of the millions of supporters of Stalin in the Soviet Union, that they were all dim-witted, dishonest, violent, connivng thugs who supported secret police, torture and executions of dissidents? Don't you think that you probably could have found many millions of decent, friendly, law-abiding honest people who loved their children and just wanted to pay their bills and live their lives? That, however, doesn't really say anything about the true nature of Stalinism.
I'm not sure why it would be supposed to say something about Stalinism. I have no problem distinguishing a totalitarian leadership from the people that are under its thumb.
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Old 10-08-10, 03:21 PM
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Re: Apparently Muslims are taking over Dearborn, Michigan

Originally Posted by Red Dog View Post
I'm not sure why it would be supposed to say something about Stalinism. I have no problem distinguishing a totalitarian leadership from the people that are under its thumb.
So you're denying that Stalin had millions of supporters, or are you disagreeing that many of them were decent people on a personal level?
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Old 10-08-10, 03:24 PM
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Re: Apparently Muslims are taking over Dearborn, Michigan

Originally Posted by Red Dog View Post
Why do you continually assume that everyone who disagrees with you is a liberal living in a warm fuzzy multicultural world?
I have no control over what you infer, but I clearly made no characterization of the people that disagree with me---I simply explained why many liberals don't support the groups I listed. If you're counting yourself as one who doesn't support those groups, and you do so for libertarian reasons, then I acknowledge that.
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Old 10-08-10, 03:32 PM
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Re: Apparently Muslims are taking over Dearborn, Michigan

Why can you not accept that the majority of Muslims read the Quran differently from extremists just like the majority of Christians read the Bible differently than extremists? There are parts of the Christian Bible that are just as offensive as bits in the Quran and there are bits that can be interpreted in a variety of ways. What people are obviously missing is the meaningless of it all.
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Old 10-08-10, 03:42 PM
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Re: Apparently Muslims are taking over Dearborn, Michigan

Originally Posted by CRM114 View Post
Why can you not accept that the majority of Muslims read the Quran differently from extremists just like the majority of Christians read the Bible differently than extremists? There are parts of the Christian Bible that are just as offensive as bits in the Quran and there are bits that can be interpreted in a variety of ways. What people are obviously missing is the meaningless of it all.
The Catholic church, neither the most liberal nor most conservative branch of Christianity (but the most populous, I believe) has interpreted its holy texts to advocate opposition to the death penalty in ALL circumstances.

There's four major schools of Islamic jursiprudence. Please point me to the liberal one that takes a non-literal reading of the Quran. Even one that says apostates shouldn't be killed? That Sharia law shouldn't be implemented? That Muslims and non-Muslims should have legal equality?
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Old 10-08-10, 03:49 PM
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Re: Apparently Muslims are taking over Dearborn, Michigan

I would advise you (Ky-Fi) take a look at Timur Karan's (zomg a Muslim name) Private Truths, Public Lies, if you need an example of how millions of people can be outwardly supportive of someone or something and actually vehemently disagree with it.
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Old 10-08-10, 03:56 PM
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Re: Apparently Muslims are taking over Dearborn, Michigan

Originally Posted by Ky-Fi View Post
So you're denying that Stalin had millions of supporters, or are you disagreeing that many of them were decent people on a personal level?
I'm saying I don't necessarily believe that the leadership of a totalitarian state reflects the sentiment of the people of that state.
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Old 10-08-10, 03:57 PM
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Re: Apparently Muslims are taking over Dearborn, Michigan

Originally Posted by Ky-Fi View Post
I have no control over what you infer, but I clearly made no characterization of the people that disagree with me---I simply explained why many liberals don't support the groups I listed. If you're counting yourself as one who doesn't support those groups, and you do so for libertarian reasons, then I acknowledge that.
It just seems that on this subject that you can't go more than 2 or 3 posts without throwing around the term 'liberal' or 'multicultural.'

My thoughts on the subject have little to do with my political philosophy.
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Old 10-08-10, 04:06 PM
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Re: Apparently Muslims are taking over Dearborn, Michigan

Originally Posted by Red Dog View Post
It just seems that on this subject that you can't go more than 2 or 3 posts without throwing around the term 'liberal' or 'multicultural.'
That's because I don't really believe Islam or Muslims are the main problem with all these conflicts. We have 56 Islamic countries, we have the religious texts, we can see what values the religion espouses and propogates. And almost like a laboratory experiment, the closer you get to the Sunni and Shia heartlands, Saudi Arabia and Iran, the more extreme it gets. That's the way they want to live, fine. They shouldn't be capable of threatening the West economically, militarily, technologically or culturally---and they wouldn't be, if not for liberals in the West forcing us to pretend Islam is just like every other religion, and that only hateful Islamophobes could possibly conclude Islam has a different value system than the liberal West, and could negatively impact Western human rights and civil liberties.
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Old 10-08-10, 04:11 PM
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Re: Apparently Muslims are taking over Dearborn, Michigan

The fallacy in your position is that you view Islam as a monolithic entity.
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Old 10-08-10, 04:16 PM
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Re: Apparently Muslims are taking over Dearborn, Michigan

Originally Posted by Red Dog View Post
The fallacy in your position is that you view Islam as a monolithic entity.
Nope. Communism certainly wasn't a monolithic entity either.
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