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Feds Convict Texan for Selling a Gun to Illegal Alien with Texas Driver's License

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Feds Convict Texan for Selling a Gun to Illegal Alien with Texas Driver's License

Old 09-07-10, 08:56 AM
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Feds Convict Texan for Selling a Gun to Illegal Alien with Texas Driver's License

In Federal District Court on July 20, 2010, the ATF won a conviction from an Austin jury that defies logic and reason.

In a trial before Federal Judge Sam Sparks, government lawyers conceded Texas resident Paul Copeland did not know his buyer was an illegal alien, but the jury they should convict him anyway because he “had reasonable cause to believe” he was selling to an illegal alien because the two men and a boy who were present at his table at the time of the sale: 1) were Hispanic, 2) spoke Spanish, and 3) wore cowboy clothing. And the jury did as asked. Assistant U.S. Attorney Jennifer Freel acted as lead prosecutor in the case.

The firearm transaction at issue occurred on January 16, 2010, at a gunshow at the North Austin Events Center, at 10601 N. Lamar Blvd., in Austin, Texas. Undercover ATF agents followed Mr. Huerta, his son, and another Hispanic male, Hipolito Aviles, around the “Texas Gunshow” that day, and claimed to observe Huerta’s transaction. Austin P.D. used Copeland’s case as the reason to close down the gunshow, leading to a protest by Austin residents in front of APD headquarters on January 25.

FLASHBACK: APD Releases Official Explanation of Gun Shows Shut Down“Austin Police Department Firearm Review Unit detectives assisted in the Austin portion of the operation. They observed and participated in multiple arrests of prohibited persons (primarily convicted felons and illegal immigrants) that obtained firearms illegally at a local gun show. Federal convictions were obtained in a majority of the cases,” the press release states.
Mr. Copeland is a 56 year old Cedar Creek resident and Vietnam veteran who liked to buy, sell, and trade firearms as a hobby. On January 16, however, he had the misfortune to sell a handgun to Leonel Huerta Sr., who spoke both English and Spanish. Huerta Sr. negotiated his purchase from Copeland in English, showing Copeland his Texas Driver’s License. At Copeland’s trial Huerta admitted on the witness stand, that he is in the country illegally, (Huerta Sr. had previously admitted this fact to Immigration & Customs Enforcement (ICE) Special Agent Leo Buentello). ATF Agent Shawn Kang claimed he saw Huerta later hand off the gun to Aviles. Despite these admissions, Huerta Sr. was never arrested, charged, or deported. Instead, his presence at the gunshow was used to entrap an American citizen into an unwitting violation of a federal gun control law. Huerta Sr., who is a resident of the City of Austin, appeared as a witness at the trial, admitted he was in the country illegally before federal prosecutors and a federal judge, yet he was allowed to leave the courtroom under his own power. To date Huerta Sr. has not been prosecuted for his purchase, possession, or disposition of the handgun he bought from Copeland, while Copeland is now a convicted felon.

“Instead of busting the illegal alien for buying, they bust the citizen for selling,” commented Paul Velte, attorney and founder of Peaceable Texans for Firearms Rights, a gun-owners rights advocacy group from Austin. Velte asked, “who was in a better position to know the buyer’s immigration status, the buyer or the seller?” He also said, “What happened to Paul Copeland should enrage all Americans. The Federal Government is using illegal aliens to entrap citizens lawfully exercising their right to sell firearms. The illegal alien walks free, but the citizen gets convicted. The same government charged with controlling immigration is the one using illegal immigrants to attack its own citizens. Does this make any sense? It makes no sense unless the purpose is to discourage attendance at gunshows and frighten citizens from selling their firearms to other citizens.”


Velte pointed out that “There is no way for a citizen to know who is here legally or not. In fact, under Austin’s ‘sanctuary city’ policy, not even the police officer at the door of the gunshow was allowed to ask a person’s immigration status, yet the average Texan inside the show is expected to assume that a person standing before them with a Texas driver’s license is in the country illegally just because they look Mexican and speak Spanish.”

Velte noted that the federal government’s lawsuit against Arizona was based on that very type of conduct: Concluding someone could be here illegally based on their looks or their language. Velte said gun owners in his group are outraged, and they want to know:

• Why is the illegal alien who purchased the gun, Leonel Huerta Sr., still living in Austin?

• Why does he still have a Texas Driver’s license?

• Why is ATF using illegal aliens to set up and convict American citizens?

• What has he been promised for his cooperation?

• Why has he not been prosecuted? He committed three distinct crimes: he purchased a firearm knowing he was an illegal alien, he possessed the firearm, and he transferred the handgun to another illegal alien (Hippolito Aviles, who was convicted and given time served on June 30, 2010).

• Why has Huerta Sr. not been deported?

Contact: Paul Velte, 512-296-5563
Peaceable Texans for Firearms Rights
website: http://www.io.com/~velte/pt.htm
________________

Reminds me of my experiences with the BATF when I owned a gun shop a couple of times.

How does a seller at a gun show know if the buyer is a convicted felon or not? Substitute felon for illegal immigrant in this situation, should the seller be prosecuted?
What about minors with fake I.D.s? Aren't business owners punished for selling alcohol or cigarettes to minors even if the minor had a fake ID stating they were old enough? A girl can have ID saying she's 18, but if she's 15 and you fuck her, you're going to jail.
How are the gun sellers being singled out?

A. It's illegal to sell firearms to illegal alien
B. The guy(s) sold firearms to illegal alien
C. What's the beef?
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Old 09-07-10, 09:00 AM
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Re: Feds Convict Texan for Selling a Gun to Illegal Alien with Texas Driver's License

This has already been Guarddogged.

Ah, I see that was locked.
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Old 09-07-10, 09:09 AM
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Re: Feds Convict Texan for Selling a Gun to Illegal Alien with Texas Driver's License

Maybe he should take the course that AZ cops did on how to determine reasonable suspicion using something other than language skills and appearance.
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Old 09-07-10, 09:29 AM
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Re: Feds Convict Texan for Selling a Gun to Illegal Alien with Texas Driver's License

On a different note...didn't the locked thread originate from Other? If so why the warning about posting "articles" sans comment? I thought that was a Politics and World Events rule.
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Old 09-07-10, 09:29 AM
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Re: Feds Convict Texan for Selling a Gun to Illegal Alien with Texas Driver's License

Originally Posted by starman9000 View Post
This has already been Guarddogged.

Ah, I see that was locked.
Yes, and it was closed because the author of the original thread didn't make any comments on the article.

I think the thread has merit, and I brought it back to life - with a comment.
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Old 09-07-10, 09:47 AM
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Re: Feds Convict Texan for Selling a Gun to Illegal Alien with Texas Driver's License

Originally Posted by classicman2 View Post
Reminds me of my experiences with the BATF when I owned a gun shop a couple of times.

I bolded the scary part.
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Old 09-07-10, 09:50 AM
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Re: Feds Convict Texan for Selling a Gun to Illegal Alien with Texas Driver's License

The real scary part was an agency with too much power was out of control.
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Old 09-07-10, 09:53 AM
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Re: Feds Convict Texan for Selling a Gun to Illegal Alien with Texas Driver's License

That's pretty messed up. Is there another source for the story?
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Old 09-07-10, 08:27 PM
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Re: Feds Convict Texan for Selling a Gun to Illegal Alien with Texas Driver's License

I wonder how many more ways the gov't can simultaneously punish its citizens and reward illegal immigrants?
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Old 09-07-10, 08:41 PM
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Re: Feds Convict Texan for Selling a Gun to Illegal Alien with Texas Driver's License

Originally Posted by pedagogue View Post
I wonder how many more ways the gov't can simultaneously punish its citizens and reward illegal immigrants?
I can think of at least 12 million ways.
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Old 09-07-10, 09:05 PM
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Re: Feds Convict Texan for Selling a Gun to Illegal Alien with Texas Driver's License

Nobody answered my question in the other thread: If someone is selling guns in the parking lot outside the gun show, is he probably doing it to bypass the gun show's rules?
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Old 09-07-10, 09:13 PM
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Re: Feds Convict Texan for Selling a Gun to Illegal Alien with Texas Driver's License

Originally Posted by covenant View Post
On a different note...didn't the locked thread originate from Other? If so why the warning about posting "articles" sans comment? I thought that was a Politics and World Events rule.
Why should someone be rewarded for starting a thread in the wrong forum? The thread was clearly political and should have been put here to begin with.
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Old 09-07-10, 09:15 PM
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Re: Feds Convict Texan for Selling a Gun to Illegal Alien with Texas Driver's License

Originally Posted by Thor Simpson View Post
I can think of at least 12 million ways.


It is 20+ million.

Even scarier.
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Old 09-07-10, 11:32 PM
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Re: Feds Convict Texan for Selling a Gun to Illegal Alien with Texas Driver's License

So AZ can't profile, but we expect the citizens to. Nice.
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Old 09-08-10, 12:09 AM
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Re: Feds Convict Texan for Selling a Gun to Illegal Alien with Texas Driver's License

Originally Posted by Nick Danger View Post
Nobody answered my question in the other thread: If someone is selling guns in the parking lot outside the gun show, is he probably doing it to bypass the gun show's rules?
No, because the reality is there are no "Gun Show Rules", but instead what you have are federal and state laws that must be followed for the sale of all firearms (show or not).

The gun show is irrelevant to the transaction and you sir are a victim of the media

When you see every day people selling a gun at a gun show, but they are not part of the show, they are simply trying to avoid paying the fee to setup a table at a show.

Here are the restrictions as I know them for the state of Virginia (or Federal) person to person sale (meaning, neither party is a dealer of any type)

-You must be 18 years or older
- both residents of Virginia
- not be a convicted felon
- not under restraining order for domestic violence, convicted of domestic violence, or have been committed to a mental institution
- must show valid proof of state residency (90 days or greater) 2 forms, example would be a drivers license and a utility bill with matching address.

In my personal experience, I have purchased a gun from a private citizen at a gun show that had a sign on his back stating what he had for sale as he was walking around the show. He was a nervous type though (this is good) as he said he would only sell it to me if I passed a background check (this is over and above the law in this case) and he said he would pay for it. At Virginia gun shows, any registered dealer will run a background check for you if you ask (even if the dealer has nothing to do with the sale). It costs like $5. We walked up to a random dealer, told him what was going on, and he was more than happy to run the check on me for the $5.

My next experience 'person to person' was buying a gun from an "in person state resident sale oriented" web site (free listings). I found what I wanted, worked out with the guy the price and where we would meet (which oddly enough was the parking lot of a real gun store LOL ) we showed ID etc, etc to each other, talked for a few minutes, completed the sale with receipt and everything. No gun show was involved here at all and it was actually a less secure transaction, but still perfectly within the law.


The bottom line is, if you want to break the law, the gun show is probably not the place to do it. Anyone can sell a gun to anyone illegally, and that is best done somewhere private

Gun shows are usually staffed with state police as well. I have seen a couple people carried off in handcuffs over the years that tried to buy from a dealer and something dirty came up on their background check. Can you say dumb ass? I guess they watch too much TV and believe in the gun show loophole, until the cuffs are slammed on them

Put your gun show loop hole right up there with a unicorn, neither exists and it's comical how the media has everyone convinced they exist just because a few illegal sales have happened at gun shows (and could happen anywhere).

Do you believe in "assault weapons" ? :lol; That's another good one the media pulled off.
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Old 09-08-10, 04:10 AM
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Re: Feds Convict Texan for Selling a Gun to Illegal Alien with Texas Driver's License

Originally Posted by pedagogue View Post
I wonder how many more ways the gov't can simultaneously punish its citizens and reward illegal immigrants?
No matter what happens, the US will always have to bear all the costs and be routinely punished for our current immigration policy.

When businesses close because they hire illegals, the surrounding economies fail. When demand protracts like that, government spending and intervention is necessary to restore economic equilibrium and "float" demand until the economy recovers. In an economy like ours, it's even more difficult to stimulate economies.

Herding up illegals and doing so in a human, just manner is going to be incredibly costly and an intensive, difficult process.

Providing border defense is necessary, but it will be costly and it's going to be another permanent budget item. It's not an operation that can be practically scaled back in the future.

This is really why I have so many objections to our current immigration policy.
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Old 09-08-10, 02:05 PM
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Re: Feds Convict Texan for Selling a Gun to Illegal Alien with Texas Driver's License

Originally Posted by wendersfan View Post
Why should someone be rewarded for starting a thread in the wrong forum? The thread was clearly political and should have been put here to begin with.
rewarded?
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Old 09-08-10, 04:54 PM
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Re: Feds Convict Texan for Selling a Gun to Illegal Alien with Texas Driver's License

I gave Guarddog $5 to start the other one in Other.
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Old 09-09-10, 12:30 AM
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Re: Feds Convict Texan for Selling a Gun to Illegal Alien with Texas Driver's License

I want my five dollars
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Old 09-09-10, 12:54 AM
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Long Island Man Arrested For Defending Home With AK-47

Ok, so I get it, I need to say something instead of just sharing articles. Sorry that it has been so offensive that I haven't shared my point of view when I assume everyone will get the same impression by merely reading the article so here it goes... If you were married and had a 1 and 2 year old in your home with your wife and a gang of 26 men show up on your lawn threatening to kill them...would you:
A. Get your legally owned AK47 and shoot at them
B. Take the generous response and shoot into the grass as a warning shot
or
C. Let them kill you and your family???

George Grier was arrested for B, leaving his wife and children defenseless...
If you dare try to defend yourself you'll be the one doing hard time.
You can have you second amendment but don't you dare try executing it to defend your wives and kids!
Why blame the victims of crime for defending themselves?

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2010/09/...me-with-ak-47/

------------

UNIONDALE, N.Y. (CBS 2) — He was arrested for protecting his property and family.

But it’s how the Long Island man did it that police say crossed the line.
He got an AK-47 assault rifle, pulled the trigger and he ended up in jail, reports CBS 2’s Pablo Guzman.

George Grier said he had to use his rifle on Sunday night to stop what he thought was going to be an invasion of his Uniondale home by a gang he thought might have been the vicious “MS-13.” He said the whole deal happened as he was about to drive his cousin home.

“I went around and went into the house, ran upstairs and told my wife to call the police. I get the gun and I go outside and I come into the doorway and now, by this time, they are in the driveway, back here near the house. I tell them, you know, ‘Can you please leave?’ Grier said.

Grier said the five men dared him to use the gun; and that their shouts brought another larger group of gang members in front of his house.
“He starts threatening my family, my life. ‘Oh you’re dead. I’m gonna kill your family and your babies. You’re dead.’ So when he says that, 20 others guys come rushing around the corner. And so I fired four warning shots into the grass,” Grier said.

Grier was later arrested. John Lewis is Grier’s attorney.
“What he’s initially charged with – A D felony reckless endangerment — requires a depraved indifference to human life, creating a risk that someone’s going to die. Shooting into a lawn doesn’t create a risk of anybody dying,” Lewis said.

Grier said he knew Nassau County Police employ the hi-tech “ShotSpotter” technology in his area and that the shooting would bring police in minutes. Cops told Guzman he was very cooperative.

Grier also said he was afraid the gang outside his house was the dreaded MS-13. And Nassau County Police Lt. Andrew Mulraine, head of the gang unit, said MS-13 has 2,000 members in the county.
“They’re probably the most organized. They almost have a military hierarchy within the gang, so they are the most organized gang we encounter on a daily basis,” Mulraine said.

You may think a person has the right to defend their home. But the law says you can only use physical force to deter physical force. Grier said he never saw anyone pull out a gun, so a court would have to decide on firing the gun.

Police determined Grier had the gun legally. He has no criminal record. And so he was not charged for the weapon.
That ShotSpotter technology pinpoints where a gun has been fired within 35 feet. Police said it also detected two other shootings in nearby Roosevelt that night.

------------

Don't worry the police will be along shortly...after your wife and kids are slaughtered.

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Will we end up like the UK where carrying a kitchen knife in you're own home is reason for arrest?


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...rs-garden.html

------------

By Daily Mail Reporter
Last updated at 9:25 AM on 11th January 2010

Myleene Klass was told off by police for waving a knife through her window to scare off two teenagers trying to break into her garden shed.

The musician was alone in her kitchen, with her two-year-old daughter asleep upstairs, when she grabbed the knife and shouted 'I'm calling the police'.

Officers who arrived at her house in Potters Bar, Hertfordshire, on Friday warned her that it was illegal to carry an 'offensive weapon' even at home.

Shock: Myleene was 'utterly terrified' by the incident
Jonathan Shalit, Myleene's spokesperson told the Sunday Telegraph: 'Myleene was aghast when she was told that the law did not allow her to defend herself in er own home.

'All she died was scream loudly and wave the knife to try and frighten them off.

'She is not looking to be a vigilante, and has the utmost respect for the law, but when the police explained to her that even if you're home alone and you have an intruder, you are not allowed to protect yourself, she was bemused.

'Her questions going forward are: what are my rights, and what are you actually allowed to do to defend yourself in your own house?'

Mr Shalit also revealed Myleene and fiance Graham Quinn, who was away on business at the time of the incident, will now be stepping up security at their house.

Shadow Home Secretary Chris Grayling said: 'This incident just shows why things are still very confused on this issue and why we need a change in the law.'

A Hertfordshire Police spokesperson said police had been called to the property following a call from Myleene on Friday night.

The spokesman added: 'There was no one around although they could see footprints in the snow. No property had been taken and there were no intruders.

'Words of advice were given in relation to ensuring suspicious behaviour is reported immediately.'

------------
Believe it or not, criminals are more likely to steal from/kill you if they know you are unarmed/unable to defend yourself!
Are we just supposed to wait for the police to save us? Why are we required by law now to submit to criminals!? What's your opinion?
Switzerland allows for you to defend yourself with a gun, they have the lowest crime rate in the world.

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Last edited by Guarddog; 09-09-10 at 01:24 AM.
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Old 09-09-10, 03:57 PM
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Re: Feds Convict Texan for Selling a Gun to Illegal Alien with Texas Driver's License

The Long Island story is very interesting. The guy was black and he fired an Ak47 in a shitty part of town, I think the police feel obliged to arrest him no matter what. The guy was arrested and charged but I think the charges will be thrown out when it gets to court. At least I hope so. I agree with your argument that if the cops take you away to book you it leaves your property and family vulnerable.
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Old 09-10-10, 06:16 AM
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Re: Feds Convict Texan for Selling a Gun to Illegal Alien with Texas Driver's License

Originally Posted by Mabuse View Post
The Long Island story is very interesting. The guy was black and he fired an Ak47 in a shitty part of town, I think the police feel obliged to arrest him no matter what. The guy was arrested and charged but I think the charges will be thrown out when it gets to court. At least I hope so. I agree with your argument that if the cops take you away to book you it leaves your property and family vulnerable.
This is what Megyn Kelly is reporting actually happened.

1. Guy comes home and finds two guys arguing on his lawn.
2. He asks them to leave and gets in arguement with them.
3. He goes in house, grabs AK-47 and tells wife to call police(they are never called)
4. When he comes out brandishing the weapon is when about 20 others come over to his property.
5. He fires weapon into ground, and into the air.
6. Police show up because the ShotSpotter detected the gunshots, not because they were called.

Legal arguement against ther guy: If there are two people on your lawn who won't leave, call and wait for police. Don't go in the house and come out with a gun.
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Old 09-10-10, 07:40 AM
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Re: Feds Convict Texan for Selling a Gun to Illegal Alien with Texas Driver's License

Americans being so afraid they run for their guns is a strange and amusing sight. Remove them from the population and you can remove a large chunk of the fear - in line with most other developed nations.
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Old 09-10-10, 08:14 AM
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Re: Feds Convict Texan for Selling a Gun to Illegal Alien with Texas Driver's License

But that would leave Americans defenseless against people who might try to hurt us. That's not an idea you want to parade around on the eve of the anniversary of 9/11.
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Old 09-10-10, 08:39 AM
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Re: Feds Convict Texan for Selling a Gun to Illegal Alien with Texas Driver's License

Originally Posted by Burnt Thru View Post
Americans being so afraid they run for their guns is a strange and amusing sight. Remove them from the population and you can remove a large chunk of the fear - in line with most other developed nations.
If we didn't have citizens who were armed 234 years ago we would be saying 'God save the queen.'
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