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Musulmans and the Occident Part II or Whatever

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Musulmans and the Occident Part II or Whatever

Old 09-10-10, 02:40 PM
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Re: Musulmans and the Occident Part II or Whatever [Update:Burning and Mosque cancell

To me, the difference is one group/person wants to build a community center, which, might, as a by-product of its construction, hurt some peoples' feelings. That is not its intended or sole purpose. On the other hand, an individual wants to burn a book that is the symbol and source of a religion, with the sole (or at least primary) purpose of pissing off the adherents of that religion.

Stripped of all other (and IMO extraneous) context, I support the construction of community centers, and I oppose the burning of books. What is so confusing about that?
Old 09-10-10, 02:58 PM
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Re: Musulmans and the Occident Part II or Whatever [Update:Burning and Mosque cancell

Originally Posted by Lemmy View Post
Actually, I'd agree with that if you'd said "most Christians" as opposed to what you did use: "most people".
You do realize that the vast majority of the US population considers themselves Christian, correct? 'Most Christians' and 'most people' are basically the same group.
Old 09-10-10, 03:01 PM
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Re: Musulmans and the Occident Part II or Whatever [Update:Burning and Mosque cancell

Originally Posted by wendersfan View Post
On the other hand, an individual wants to burn a book that is the symbol and source of a religion, with the sole (or at least primary) purpose of pissing off the adherents of that religion.
I think it could be argued that the sole (or at least primary) purpose for building the mosque near ground zero is to piss off those that don't want it there. He could have built it somewhere further away. And Terry could not burn the books. But both are stubborn, both are doing something legal, and both are trying to send a message. And one is told they shouldn't do it because some whackjobs that already hate us may go apeshit and do something stupid. I don't think that's a valid reason for him to stop. I personally think both this loser Terry and this unfeeling nimrod who wants to build the Mosque are both attention seeking whores and should just go away but it's making for some interesting news stories and conversation so... I'm good with all of it.
Old 09-10-10, 03:05 PM
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Re: Musulmans and the Occident Part II or Whatever [Update:Burning and Mosque cancell

Originally Posted by Venusian View Post
"mainstream" is a term used by people to refer to certain Protestant denominations. It is a term with meaning when talking about the American church.
So because a group self-defines itself as "mainstream" that makes it mainstream? Sounds like an attempt to privilege themselves over other denominations in a pre-emptive no-true-Scotsman argument.
Old 09-10-10, 03:08 PM
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Re: Musulmans and the Occident Part II or Whatever [Update:Burning and Mosque cancell

Originally Posted by Sean O'Hara View Post
So because a group self-defines itself as "mainstream" that makes it mainstream? Sounds like an attempt to privilege themselves over other denominations in a pre-emptive no-true-Scotsman argument.
I'm ignorant of where the labels came from but those labeled evangelical as opposed to mainstream are okay with the other title so not sure either title comes with privileges.
Old 09-10-10, 03:08 PM
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Re: Musulmans and the Occident Part II or Whatever [Update:Burning and Mosque cancell

Originally Posted by kvrdave View Post
Here is what really pisses me off about the whole thing. There were people who were against the Mosque being built near ground zero that said, "We don't disagree that they have the right to do it, but they should be smart enough to know they shouldn't." That is the exact same thing being said about the Koran burning, yet so many that are defending the Mosque building don't seem to quite grasp that they are now using the argument of those who were against the Mosque building. The shoe is perfectly on the other foot, yet people still don't seem to be able to stand back and fully grasp the position of the people across from them. That is hard to imagine.
I believe Muslims have a right to build their mosques anywhere they want, even though they follow an evil hegemonic ideology.

I believe Terry Jones has the right to burn Korans, even though he follows an evil hegemonic ideology.

I believe that Fred Phelps has the right to protest outside funerals, even though he follows an evil hegemonic ideology.

Happy?
Old 09-10-10, 03:17 PM
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Re: Musulmans and the Occident Part II or Whatever [Update:Burning and Mosque cancell

Originally Posted by wendersfan View Post
To me, the difference is one group/person wants to build a community center, which, might, as a by-product of its construction, hurt some peoples' feelings. That is not its intended or sole purpose. On the other hand, an individual wants to burn a book that is the symbol and source of a religion, with the sole (or at least primary) purpose of pissing off the adherents of that religion.

Stripped of all other (and IMO extraneous) context, I support the construction of community centers, and I oppose the burning of books. What is so confusing about that?
I saw his post and was going to respond but you encapsulated my feelings on it.

The 2 acts are not comparable.
Old 09-10-10, 03:20 PM
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Re: Musulmans and the Occident Part II or Whatever [Update:Burning and Mosque cancell

Originally Posted by Venusian View Post
I'm ignorant of where the labels came from but those labeled evangelic as opposed to mainstream are okay with the other title so not sure either title comes with priviledges.
That might be a good argument if so-called "mainstream" Christians and evangelicals were the whole of Christianity. I think the Catholics -- the guys following an ex-Nazi -- and Orthodox might take exception to that.
Old 09-10-10, 03:27 PM
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Re: Musulmans and the Occident Part II or Whatever [Update:Burning and Mosque cancell

Originally Posted by wendersfan View Post
To me, the difference is one group/person wants to build a community center, which, might, as a by-product of its construction, hurt some peoples' feelings. That is not its intended or sole purpose. On the other hand, an individual wants to burn a book that is the symbol and source of a religion, with the sole (or at least primary) purpose of pissing off the adherents of that religion.

Stripped of all other (and IMO extraneous) context, I support the construction of community centers, and I oppose the burning of books. What is so confusing about that?
Nothing confusing about that provided you have correctly figured out the intentions of all involved. When one does that (whether right or not) it always makes your position seem better. If I were to burn a Koran, it wouldn't be to piss off any Muslim. That would be a consequence of it, but it wouldn't be my reason. It would be symbolism. Symbolism that apparently can get you killed just as if you had drawn a picture of Mohammed. So don't do that either or you have pissed off the Muslim world. And here is a list of other things we want you to give up that you hold dear so that you dare not piss them off.

Fuck that.

Both are pissing a lot of people off. Both have the ability to rethink their position. I think both should. Most seem to think only one or the other should. And that's not confusing so long as you give the proper motivation to each.
Old 09-10-10, 03:31 PM
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Re: Musulmans and the Occident Part II or Whatever [Update:Burning and Mosque cancell

kvrdave wants everyone to the do the PC thing. That's new.
Old 09-10-10, 03:33 PM
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Re: Musulmans and the Occident Part II or Whatever [Update:Burning and Mosque cancell

Originally Posted by Sean O'Hara View Post
I believe Muslims have a right to build their mosques anywhere they want, even though they follow an evil hegemonic ideology.

I believe Terry Jones has the right to burn Korans, even though he follows an evil hegemonic ideology.

I believe that Fred Phelps has the right to protest outside funerals, even though he follows an evil hegemonic ideology.

Happy?
No.

But I share the same feeling.
Old 09-10-10, 03:34 PM
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Re: Musulmans and the Occident Part II or Whatever [Update:Burning and Mosque cancell

Whadya know. According to Wikipedia, "mainline Protestants" (which I presume is what Venusian means by "mainstream") are not even close to the mainstream of American Christianity:

The 2004 survey of religion and politics in the United States[7] identified the Evangelical percentage of the population at 26.3%; while Roman Catholics are 22% and Mainline Protestants make up 16%. In the 2007 Statistical Abstract of the United States, the figures for these same groups are 28.6% (Evangelical), 24.5% (Roman Catholics), and 13.9% (Mainline Protestant.) The latter figures are based on a 2001 study of the self-described religious identification of the adult population for 1990 and 2001 from the Graduate School and University Center at the City University of New York.[8]
Old 09-10-10, 03:35 PM
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Re: Musulmans and the Occident Part II or Whatever [Update:Burning and Mosque cancell

Originally Posted by Red Dog View Post
kvrdave wants everyone to the do the PC thing. That's new.
Are you making fun of me? I don't care if anyone does the PC thing. I just want them to all quit talking about it. I don't give a shit if they build the Mosque. I don't give a shit if they burn the Koran. I don't give a shit if they burn bibles in response. I also don't give a shit if they have a contest drawing pictures of Mohammed. But only two of those things seem to be most likely to get you killed. And we need to be sensitive to where they want to build.

Fuck 'em.
Old 09-10-10, 03:37 PM
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Re: Musulmans and the Occident Part II or Whatever [Update:Burning and Mosque cancell

Originally Posted by Sean O'Hara View Post
That might be a good argument if so-called "mainstream" Christians and evangelicals were the whole of Christianity. I think the Catholics -- the guys following an ex-Nazi -- and Orthodox might take exception to that.
I'm specifically talking about the American Protestant church
Old 09-10-10, 03:40 PM
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Re: Musulmans and the Occident Part II or Whatever [Update:Burning and Mosque cancell

Originally Posted by Venusian View Post
I'm specifically talking about the American Protestant church
But I'm talking about Christianity. The intollerance of Phelps, Robertson, and Jones fits much better with the intollerance of the Catholics and Orthodox than any hippie churches that define themselves as mainstream.

And even among Protestants, evangelicals outnumber supposed "mainstream" Christians by 2:1 (see above).
Old 09-10-10, 03:43 PM
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Re: Musulmans and the Occident Part II or Whatever [Update:Burning and Mosque cancell

Originally Posted by Sean O'Hara View Post
But I'm talking about Christianity. The intollerance of Phelps, Robertson, and Jones fits much better with the intollerance of the Catholics and Orthodox than any hippie churches that define themselves as mainstream.

And even among Protestants, evangelicals outnumber supposed "mainstream" Christians by 2:1 (see above).
I know "mainstreams" outnumber evangelicals. I was simply saying that the term "mainstream" has specific meaning when talking about the American church and Robertson and Falwell do not fall within that meaning.
Old 09-10-10, 04:01 PM
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Re: Musulmans and the Occident Part II or Whatever [Update:Burning and Mosque cancell

I'll just leave this here.

Old 09-10-10, 04:05 PM
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Re: Musulmans and the Occident Part II or Whatever [Update:Burning and Mosque cancell

Originally Posted by Sean O'Hara View Post
But I'm talking about Christianity. The intollerance of Phelps, Robertson, and Jones fits much better with the intollerance of the Catholics and Orthodox than any hippie churches that define themselves as mainstream.

And even among Protestants, evangelicals outnumber supposed "mainstream" Christians by 2:1 (see above).
What is your definition of an evangelical christian?
Old 09-10-10, 04:15 PM
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Re: Musulmans and the Occident Part II or Whatever [Update:Burning and Mosque cancell

Originally Posted by Venusian View Post
I know "mainstreams" outnumber evangelicals. I was simply saying that the term "mainstream" has specific meaning when talking about the American church and Robertson and Falwell do not fall within that meaning.
Yeah, the term "Mainstream" has a specific definition, which is only used within the Church. The term "mainstream" is a common word used by English speakers everywhere, and is not related to the Church definition.
Old 09-10-10, 04:22 PM
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Re: Musulmans and the Occident Part II or Whatever [Update:Burning and Mosque cancell

Originally Posted by Suprmallet View Post
Yeah, the term "Mainstream" has a specific definition, which is only used within the Church. The term "mainstream" is a common word used by English speakers everywhere, and is not related to the Church definition.
Never heard it used in the church but seen it used by the media when describing the church.
Old 09-10-10, 04:24 PM
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Re: Musulmans and the Occident Part II or Whatever [Update:Burning and Mosque cancell

When I hear the term "mainstream" anything, I assume it means the majority group.
Old 09-10-10, 04:47 PM
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Re: Musulmans and the Occident Part II or Whatever [Update:Burning and Mosque cancell

Well, it seems that T_ _ _ _ J_ _ _ _ _ has accomplished the remarkable feat of getting DVDTalkers debating the meanings of terms such as "mainstream" and "mainline", so I guess his stunt wasn't a complete loss.

It does seem somewhat absurd to get offtrack from discussing the topic at hand to bring up the old tired stereotypes of "2000 years of wars & inquisitions" to attack religion (even while acknowledging the many beneficial actions toward humanity that were motivated by religious principles).

It makes just as much sense to point out 2000+ years of evil acts committed by atheists and then paint all atheists with the same brush (to paraphrase: "All of the good acts committed by atheists don't make up for evil done by them). Of course, very seldom do 'objective' observers attribute any malevolent acts to a LACK of moral principles taught by religions even thought that argument could easily be made.

The odd notion that Jesus "failed" because not everyone was immediately redeemed by his death & resurrection shows a complete lack of understanding of the gospels. The Bible declares that Jesus came to die for His elect & that none of them would be lost in order to demonstrate God's mercy. That's a 100% success rate. The Bible also says that some are created to be vessels of wrath in order to demonstrate God's justice. According to scripture, that number includes many who will say, "Lord, Lord" on Judgment Day, whereupon they will be told, "Depart from Me...I never knew you."

As the Bible plainly says, although only God truly can know the hearts of men, one can judge them to some extent by their fruits. It's easy to talk the talk, but not all can walk the walk.

One can call himself anything and claim to be following the principles of any group, but the proof is whether the actions match the tenets of that organization...not what some member's interpretation of those tenets are. Anyone can use any creed to justify one's aberrant behavior if one is so inclined.
Old 09-10-10, 04:51 PM
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Re: Musulmans and the Occident Part II or Whatever [Update:Burning and Mosque cancell

Originally Posted by Meglos View Post
I'll just leave this here.

Gladly. Burning the Bible is nothing more to me than burning the flag. I wouldn't do either. But don't draw a picture of Mohammed or you will die.

There isn't much news about all the Bibles destroyed in Afghanistan. And honestly, it doesn't bother me. But don't try to make them out as equal. One pisses people off, the other gets you hunted down and killed by the religion of peace.
Old 09-10-10, 05:06 PM
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Re: Musulmans and the Occident Part II or Whatever [Update:Burning and Mosque cancell

Originally Posted by Sean O'Hara View Post

2000 years of wars and inquisitions is reason enough.
Funny...when I was learning American history, I was never taught that any of our wars were "religious wars".

Of course, one could argue that the American Revolution was a religious war since it was referred to as a Presbyterian Rebellion, and one could also argue that the American Civil War was also at least in part religiously-motivated (by some on both sides). I suppose that you are aware that most Abolitionists were religiously-motivated.

And could you give me the date of the last "Inquisition"? Seems like some amount of time has elapsed there.

On the other hand, I think one could cite all of the major conflicts fought in the 20th Century (WWI, WWII, Korean War, Vietnam, etc.) that drew in countries from around the world as not being 'religious wars'. Even many of the conflicts which are popularly blamed on 'religious differences' have long histories of cultural clashes stretching back for centuries that go beyond religion. Those conflicts have as much to blame on tribal hatred, political differences, struggles over property, and other sources as they do religious differences (indeed, many enemies in those conflicts share a common religious heritage...does that mean they are fighting solely over "religion"?).

I think it's time to stop BLAMING religion on conflicts...which are going to happen regardless of the presence of organized religion or not...and start looking at religion as being a factor in PREVENTING bloodshed & fostering tolerance.

The myth of the Noble Atheist whose lack of adherence to religious principles affords him a moral superiority to those who worship a supernatural being is just that...a myth. There are "good" atheists and "bad" atheists, just as there are "good" people claiming to be "religious" and "bad".

One could also argue that those who claim to be religious but whose actions contradict their espoused religious principles are actually deluded atheists (since they do not conform to what their religion demands). Then again, Satan & the demons aren't atheists, according to scripture...they definitely know that God exists and can quote scripture better than most believers.
Old 09-10-10, 05:09 PM
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Re: Musulmans and the Occident Part II or Whatever [Update:Burning and Mosque cancell

Originally Posted by creekdipper View Post

One could also argue that those who claim to be religious but whose actions contradict their espoused religious principles are actually deluded atheists (since they do not conform to what their religion demands).
No, you can't, because that's not the definition of an atheist.

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